Cutting Pads with the PC - Good idea?

[Mayur]

Cutting Pads with the PC - Is this a good idea? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16429)


I'm new to detailing and I just bought a porter cable 7424 with a bunch of lake country pads. Few questions now.

1. Do I gotta tape up the parts of the car where the wax shouldn't go (ie: door cracks, windows, mirrors, etc)?

2. Im using a few things, should I follow this order with these pads?
* Wash
* Clay
* Swirl Remover - Orange pad cutting pad
* Cleaner wax - White pad
* Sealant/Polish - Black pad
* Wax - Black pad

Thanks in advance
Mayur

[MaximusZTS]

To answer your first question. No, you dont gotta tape them off. You will wish you had when it comes time to clean those trim items. So yes you should. It will save you time in the long run and keep your car looking better.

As for your second question I have never used LakeCounty pads so I dont know how they compare to Meg's pads. But your product choice and the order seem good.

Oh and Welcome to MOL.

[Murr1525]

1. You dont have to tape... but you'll be sorry if you dont.

2. I'm not familiar with LC pads, but I do question you order of products? Are you using Meguiars products? Why are you going fomr swirl remover, to cleaner wax, then wax? It can be done with no problem, but is kind of repeating yourself. You could either save steps, or work in other products that might give better results.

EDIT:
Yeah, what he said...

[GTBrad]

I had LC pads before and I really didn't like them as much as the w8006 and w9006 Meguiars pads.

Also, I had the orange pad and as I learned from a Meguiars Detail Day, the pad is much to abrasive to be used on my paint.

Below is my Mustang hood where I used an orange pad on the top right side, and the results from using less abrasive products and and polishing pad....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/jdmbrad/Megs5.jpg

[Mike Phillips]

Also, I had the orange pad and as I learned from a Meguiar's Detail Day, the pad is much to abrasive to be used on my paint.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/jdmbrad/Megs5.jpg

Thanks Brad for sharing this, testimony from our forum members and our class attendees is much more powerful than when someone such as myself post this type of first hand experience.

FWIW

We have had a number of people come to this forum asking how to remove the haze and scouring left by cutting pads recommended by other companies and by members of other forums.


Here's another picture taken of Brad's Black Mustang showing where he used a foam cutting pad on the PC and how it hazed the paint. This was taken from page 2 of this Saturday Detailing Class.
Stangpede at Meguiar's this Saturday!
(http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15066)
Once in a while people come to MOL asking questions about using foam cutting pads on the dual action polisher, (G100/PC). Here at Meguiar's our current policy is to not recommend, nor sell people cutting pads to use to apply products with the dual action polisher because while they may remove scratches, they tend to scour and haze the paint and most people don't have the skill or expertise to recover from this when it happens.

Below is a picture of the hood on GTBrad's black Mustang.

- In the upper left hand corner you can see swirls in the paint that were there when Brad bought the car.
- In the upper right hand side is how the hood looked after he tried using another company's cutting pad on the dual action polisher. Note how scoured the paint looks.
- In the bottom half of the hood, we removed both the swirls and the scouring using Meguiar's products and only our W-8006 polishing pad and our W-9006 finishing pad.
The point is, using the correct technique, you don't have to resort to a foam cutting pad and risk scouring your car's paint to remove below surface defects and restore a show car shine!

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2Stangpede012a.jpg


Thanks for letting us work on your car Brad!

[Mayur]

So orange pad is really abrasive? People who use LC pads say that the yellow pad works the best (which is even more abrasive than orange) and either way I got all my pads in a starter kit with my pc.

Also to clear up things. Im detailing my dads car which has many many yet minor clear coat scratches and what seems to be minor swirls. Ill admit Im only using Meguiars swirl remover and the rest is Mothers ultimate wax system. I want to first hand see results between Mothers and Meguiars so Ill deff be using Meguiars on another car or Ill be using it in the spring when I detail again.

Murr1525 I already have Mothers ultimate wax system. I wanted to throw in swirl remover hoping it will remove scracthes. These scratches are everywhere because my dad basically treats his es300 as a cargo van. Im hoping that the more steps I do, the more I can kill these scratches.

Anyone want to followup?

Thanks for all the help so far guys
Mayur

[Murr1525]

Well, I would definatley repalce the #9 Swirl Remover with #80 Speed Glaze. This will be better at removing swirls than #9, but is still mild.

[Mayur]

Well, I would definatley repalce the #9 Swirl Remover with #80 Speed Glaze. This will be better at removing swirls than #9, but is still mild.
Im not trying to tackle swirls at this moment because Im still a novice to all of this. Im really trying to tackle all the clear coat scratches on the car. I could use scratchx or something like that but Id go through many tubes of that.

Here are product descriptions
Swirl Remover 2.0 is a deep gloss cleaner/polish. It removes fine scratches and swirl marks, while providing a dark, dramatic shine. Formulated to reduce splatter and make application and wipe-down easier.

Speed Glaze provides paint shop safe protection. Removes light to moderate swirls, oxidation and paint defects. Restores a glistening “new paint” shine. Versatile – can be used with a rotary buffer (wool or foam pad), D/A polisher, orbital or by hand. Easy, low dusting wipe-off.

I appreciate your help Murr. Do you think Im making the right choice on removing minor clearcoat scratches?

[Murr1525]

Actualy, the swirls are most likely going to be easier to remove than the scratches, since the swirls will most likely be shallower. Swirls arnd scratches are pretty much the same thing, just swirls are often shallower.

Many new folks are concerned about being too agressive, which is normal, and a good thing. But #80 and #9 are both very mild.. You can use these products monthly for years and years without removing too much clear-coat.

The difference is basicaly #9 is for fine/very fine marks, while #80 is for light marks.

You would be fine with either product, and if it makes you feel better ,start with the #9. It is no problem. Likewise, dont start in the middle of your hood... start on a back fender, just so you feel better. :bigups

[Mayur]

Well to play it safe I just bought the entire DC system. I debated with myself and I came to conclude that Im not ready for the pro line, at least just not yet. I havent even held the PC yet, Im not ready for pro line. Pro line in the sping ;)

[mini44]

practice on a friends car. White pad and #80 , black pad and wax.
Mike calls #80 " buba-proof"

[Mayur]

practice on a friends car. White pad and #80 , black pad and wax.
Mike calls #80 " buba-proof"
Yah Im gonna be practicing on my cousins car that he just bought (used). The paint is in pretty bad condition. It has traded paint with a few other cars and many many scracthes.

[Mike Phillips]

***Bump***

Meguiar's doesn't recommend using cutting pads with a dual action polishers. It's true that a cutting pad on a PC will remove defects, but because of the oscillating action of the tool, they tend to also scour and haze the paint. The same cutting pad on a rotary buffer will produce a clear finish on paint, but when you change the action of the tool, the results change also and in this example the change is a negative result.

We have proven time and time again that any defects that can be removed with a dual action polisher can be removed using our W-8006 polishing pad and a cutting pad isn't necessary if you're using good technique. Thus there is no reason to use a cutting pad on a dual action polisher.

If you follow the directions and advice from the manufacture of the cutting pad that sells you and recommends to you to use this type of aggressive pad with a dual action polisher, or you get this advice from someone on another detailing discussion forum, and you run into trouble...

We will be here to help you recover. :bigups

[tinkz]

This morning i've tired my DA polisher with speed glaze and lake country polishing pad (white) for the first time on my gfs Honda integra Type r http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21159&highlight=speed+glaze. Ive removed a little bit of swirls doing two passes. Maybe i need more practise with the polisher to achieve a better result or maybe use a more agressive product

[Mike Phillips]

Ive removed a little bit of swirls doing two passes.

Maybe i need more practice with the polisher to achieve a better result or maybe use a more aggressive product



The most aggressive product we recommend "at this time" is our M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish.

Generally speaking, if M80 or M83 won't remove the defects using a polishing pad the problem is either poor technique or it's time to step up to a rotary buffer.

Getting more aggressive with a DA polisher than the above will remove the defects better and faster but it will also tend to leave the finish scoured looking. If you're working on a black or dark colored car you'll see this scouring if you're working on a white or light colored car you likely won't see this scouring and think you're leaving a nice finish when in fact you're not.

Getting good and great results using a DA Polisher is ALL about using good technique. From my personal experience in teaching hundreds and probably thousands of people how to use this tool, most people make one of the below mistakes. We've included the remedy for them in this article also which can be found in our "Hot Topics" forum.


Tips & Techniques for using the G100/PC Dual Action Polisher (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20874)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems

Trying to work too large of an area at one time
Move the polisher too fast over the surface
Too low of speed setting for removing swirls
Too little pressure on the head of the unit
Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating
Not keeping the pad flat while working your product
Too much product, too little product
Not cleaning the pad often enoughHere's a list of the solutions in matching order,

Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video cameraThe first 4 are the most common. Can't tell you how many times we hear a comment like this from someone in the garage after demonstrating the correct technique

"That's what I'm doing wrong"


The dual action polisher is a gentle tool, that's why people like it. People are afraid of machines because they're worried they're going to either instill swirls or burn through the paint. When they learn that this is pretty hard to do with this machine, so after enough research or after watching a demonstration they learn to trust it and try it.

Summary: People like the dual action polisher because it's oscillating action is safe and gentle to the surface.

Now follow me on this...
For the same reason people love the dual action polisher, (it's safe and gentle), a segment of people get frustrated with it because it won't remove all defects all the time. It won't tackle serious or deep defects quickly and easily. It won't always work on really hard paints. So for the same reason people love this tool, they also hate it, they just don't know why. Maybe after reading this post they will understand.


This is the reason this thread is so widely read and you can learn a lot from it if you'll only take the time to read through it.

PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! - The Limits of the Dual Action Polisher (http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3056)


Even the pictures of the paint on the white truck on the first page and the story behind it are powerful and REAL (This writer took them and did the testing with both the G100/PC and the RB).

When the G100/PC with a strong cleaner/polish like M83 and our W-8006 polishing pad doesn't remove the defects to your satisfaction or within an acceptable time limit the answer is not to get more aggressive with a more aggressive pad or chemical or both, the answer is to switch to a more powerful machine like the rotary buffer and or take the car to a Pro who knows how to use a rotary buffer, or learn to live with the defects.

Scottwax2 Hope this helps...

[tinkz]

thanks heaps Mike! looks like i got lots of reading and practise to do.

[radicalrev]

do need to mist the pads when it is dry/first time using it for that detail??

[Murr1525]

No, you dont have to mist them.

[Holden_Caulfield04]

If you re-read what I wrote, I think I already answered your question.

In fact, this entire thread is based upon your question.

I haven't worked on Mustangs but I would say that black paint = soft, more often than not. I agree that you should always try the least aggressive mode possible, but it won't always work.

So, what if someone has a BMW with a hard clear and only a PC with minimal knowledge? Do you recommend that they seek a professional or just try and work with a polishing pad?

One more possibility is to move from a 6.5" pad to a 4" pad. Less rotational mass means more friction and polishing power from the same machine.

[Mike Phillips]

I haven't worked on Mustangs but I would say that black paint = soft, more often than not. I agree that you should always try the least aggressive mode possible, but it won't always work.

So, what if someone has a BMW with a hard clear and only a PC with minimal knowledge? Do you recommend that they seek a professional or just try and work with a polishing pad?

One more possibility is to move from a 6.5" pad to a 4" pad. Less rotational mass means more friction and polishing power from the same machine.

If you're working on a clear coat finish, you're not working on black paint you're working on clear paint and thus pigment type doesn't have an effect on the resin used to make the clear coat.

If you read what I wrote, I said we can fix most everything that comes our way using good technique and the right pads and products, this includes all cars and that means it includes BMW's.

If a person can't remove ALL of the defects using the products we recommend then usually it is time to seek out a professional for help, use a rotary buffer or learn to live with the defects.

You may have more experience and a higher skill level than most and if you do then that's good for you, but most of the people coming to this forum are coming to learn to use a machine, than after they get some experience they often advance to the rotary buffer.

Before you keep posting to this thread, you might want to read this thread...

PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! (The Limits of Dual Action Polisher) (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3056)

[Holden_Caulfield04]

I doubt it they just released their own new polidher this year. Click on thread below for a review.
Meguiars G100 DA Polisher (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21543)
Cheers

Yeah, it's based on the UDM. I know it's rather expensive to retool and market another product but the Flex has been phenomenally successful and it may be a smart decision for Meguiars. On the other hand, the profit is quite small compared to chemicals like compounds, waxes etc.

[Mike Pennington]

Yeah, it's based on the UDM.

In reference to your above quote regarding our new G110...

Not sure where you got your info from, but it couldn't be any further from the truth :)

The G110 was drawn up from a blank sheet of paper, and we started this process about 2 years ago.

Just to clear up the confusion again.....Our new G110 is in no way a redesign and/or affiliated at all with the UDM.

Mike

[EAT HEMI]

The initial reason I joined MOL is because I used a cutting pad (7006) on my baby and got micromarring of the paint and I freaked out once my detailer told me that was a no-no (i hadn't even noticed the micromarring at that point).

I used the pad only due to poor note-taking during a detailing class I took. Adding to my false confidence, I successfully used it on my daily driver too.

I saw only a few posts when I joined where others had fixed the cutting pad induced micromarring. After reading many, many articles, I was able to remove the micromarring successfully with a #80, #83, and follow-up #80 procedure - with a #8006 pad.

Thus, my post is first hand experience why not to use the cutting pad:

Reason 1:
#80 and #83 are amazing products when used with a 8006 pad that really do what I wanted in the first place

Reason 2:
I believe my saving grace was when I used a 7006 pad, I only used it with #9

Reason #3:
Most importantly, I have now had to polish the car 5 times to get the results I wanted.

Polish Round 1: 7006 with #9 (wrongly) - micromarring of paint
Polish Round 2: Using the 8006 with #9 - some damage was undone - but I needed to step it up
Polish Round 3: 8006 with #80 - fixed damage, but didn't get cobwebs - my original intended target
Polish Round 4: 8006 with #83 - cob webs gone/reduced, some more marring
Polish Round 5: 8006 with #80 - marring gone - paint looks awesome... finally.

[Mike Phillips]

Thus, my post is first hand experience why not to use the cutting pad:




Thanks for sharing... and what color is the car you've been doing all this cleaning and polishing work to?

[EAT HEMI]

Thanks for sharing... and what color is the car you've been doing all this cleaning and polishing work to?

It is a TorRed 2006 Dodge Charger Daytona R/T. Basically a fire engine red color.

I left a portion of the C-pillar untouched from my mess-up. I'll provide a comparison shot when I get a chance.

[Mike Phillips]

It is a TorRed 2006 Dodge Charger Daytona R/T. Basically a fire engine red color.

I left a portion of the C-pillar untouched from my mess-up. I'll provide a comparison shot when I get a chance.

Thanks for adding this detail.

To anyone that's read this far into the thread, keep this in mind... the kind of hazing or micro-marring caused by using an aggressive pad, be it wool or foam on a DA Polisher can be hard to see if you're working on a light colored paint system, it's pretty easy to see on darker colors and especially black paint.

We've read posts where the person using a cutting pad on a DA Polisher and also recommending this type of pad was also working on a light colored car, so it could be they just never saw the damage they were doing.

Always do a Test Spot. Make sure the pad and product of your choice will remove the defects and leave the paint looking clear and glossy before going over the entire finish with your products of choice.

If your products and pads of choice cannot make a small area look good they're certainly not going to make the entire car look good, so test first and once you have a pad and product combination dialed-in that gives you the results you're looking for on your car's paint system, then duplicate the process over the entire car.

Make sense?

:)

[EAT HEMI]

Thanks for adding this detail.


:)

No problem.


Adding one thing:
I did not notice the cutting pad micromarring until pulling it out of the garage on a sunny day. (I did a test spot in my garage with 1000 W Halogens and didn't see anything)

[andyo]

what would i use to get wetsanding scratches out with the g100?

[Mike Phillips]

what would i use to get wetsanding scratches out with the g100?

First you would start your own thread with your own topic instead of tagging your question on to this thread which is called taking a thread off-topic.

Just a friendly tip. :)


Second of all, you wouldn't sand down a car with the idea that you're going to remove all the sanding marks using a DA Polisher, it's the wrong tool for the job, the right tool would be the rotary buffer as discussed numerous times on this forum.

Not the answer everyone wants to hear because what everyone wants to do is have the DA Polisher be as powerful as a rotary buffer but without all the risks of a direct drive tool and you can't get that kind of power out of a tool with a clutch that stops the pad from spinning when too much pressure is applied, the kind of pressure required to remove sanding marks.

On another note, we-sanding is a process almost always done in the context of a NEW paint job, a paint job that is still somewhat soft. People on the Internet seem to not understand this and get the idea they can wet-sand the factory baked on thin clear coat on their car and then quickly and easily buff out the sanding marks using their DA polisher and it just isn't going to happen.

It's alway easy to wet-sand a paint job, wet-sanding is removing paint by sanding and one of the by-products of this process is instilling scratches into the paint... now follow me on this... it's easy to put scratches into the paint.... the challenge comes when it's time to remove them and that's where the difference between freshly sprayed paint and factory baked on paint becomes very apparent in that sanding marks will buff out fairly easily out of fresh paint and in most cases it will be very difficult to remove them out of factory baked on case-hardened paint.

Yet people read posts about this on other forums and then think they can do it to.

Just so you know, you can wet-sand paint and then make the paint shiny again by buffing it and it can still have hundreds of thousands of sanding marks in the paint, but to sand back a ways and look at the surface of the paint it can be shiny yet still have lots of sanding marks.

How do you know that this isn't what someone's paint job looks like after they've tried removing the sanding marks using a DA Polisher? A photo on the Internet won't show the sanding marks, just shiny paint.

So don't believe everything you read about wet-sanding and buffing using a DA Polisher, it's a lot more difficult than what most people that have never done this before understand.

:)

[Mike Phillips]

Another example of an orange cutting pad hazing paint...

http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/107487-help-swirls-after-polishing.html


Before you use any company's cutting pad on a DA Polisher to remove swirls, here's a suggestion... first do a Test Spot

That is, take the pads, the chemicals and all your skill and use all the products and pads in the process you've come up with and work on just a small section.

Then inspect this SMALL section in as many kinds of light as you can to make sure you're happy with the results. If you are, then continue around the car. If you're not... aren't you glad you only did a small test spot?

Now you can troubleshoot and try to find out where the problem is in your process and come up with a new combination of pads and chemicals until you can dial-in a process that first gives you great results in a small area and of course later, over the entire car.

Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot

Inspect and insure your results
Inspect and insure your results
Inspect and insure your results


Do it right the first time and you won't have to do it a second time.

:xyxthumbs

[hngu7721]

Thanks for the clarification regarding Meguiar's stance on not to use cutting pads on a DA. I'm the person in the link above with the Accord and LC Orange/FPII combo.

I've since discovered that the polish i was using had minimal cutting ability; much less than Swirl Mark Remover 2.0, and it's primary function was finishing product. I suspect the swirls i was putting on the car was due to the Polish/Light Cutting Pad of the LC ORange.

However, when switching to a true correcting polish; IP (Intensive Polish) with the same pad, I was able to take care of a majority (~90%) of all defects in the paint. Finishing later with a true polishing pad and finishing polish FP( Final Polish) worked perfectly.

I'd thought I'd had the perfect combo until reading this post however. From what I gather, no cutting pad should be used with a DA polisher as it's full potential is not realized unless it's on a rotary, and the random orbit of the DA can introduce defects. You'd also recommended that the user step up to a rotary if the DA/Polishing Pad combo and #83 (strongest cutting polish recommended for DA use) didn't suffice.

However, I've noticed in a few pictures from a recent Open Garage of members using the G110 with a cutting pad on the black wrecking yard hood of the GMC. Is it OK to use a cutting pad, if and only if it is followed up with a polishing pad? Or was the use during Open Garage a special case anomaly?

I appreciate any info and clarification you can provide on this subject.

[BlueZero]

The new foam cutting pad (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25204) that just came out is for use with a PC.

I think the reasoning behind not using the 'old' cutting pad is that it leaves a hazy. Not everyone knows to, or can follow up to remove the hazing.

[hngu7721]

Thanks for the prompt response! I think I'll have to try out the new Cutting and Polishing Pads and see how they perform.

Do you happen to know how aggressive the Maroon pad is when compared to the LC Orange (CCS) Mild Cutting/Polishing Pads?

[lecchilo]

Thanks for the prompt response! I think I'll have to try out the new Cutting and Polishing Pads and see how they perform.

Do you happen to know how aggressive the Maroon pad is when compared to the LC Orange (CCS) Mild Cutting/Polishing Pads?

The old maroon 8006 pad is, from my experience, more aggressive than the Orange LC pad