Tracers or Swirls? Which one?

[v12]

Tracers or Swirls? Which one? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18794)


I sanded the roof of my car with 2000 grits > meg 85 + w4000 > meg 83 + w7000 > meg 80 + w7000.

Every thing possible to prevent tracer was applied BUT at the end the tracer is there :mad:

My question now is how to get rid of them? shell I use finer grits like 2500 or 3000?

[Mike Phillips]

I sanded the roof of my car with 2000 grits > meg 85 + w4000 > meg 83 + w7000 > meg 80 + w7000.

Every thing possible to prevent tracer was applied BUT at the end the tracer is there:mad:

My question now is how to get rid of them? shell I use finer grits like 2500 or 3000?


There are two ways to do this by hand,

Re-sanding the entire area using a finer grit paper and then re-compound and cross your fingers

Use the technique called "Feathersanding" outlined here,

Feathersanding (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3720)

It's tedious work but the idea being you're only instilling sanding marks on the tracers and not over the entire surface.

The way we usually remove tracers and RIDS, (Random Isoloated Deeper Scratches), is with an advanced technique that I call Feathersanding, which requires the use of Meguiar's Unigrit Finishing Papers (http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguiars/product_detail.cfm?parentURL=index_pro.cfm&sku=S-) and a rotary buffer.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/554unigritsmall1.jpg

Experience helps a little too! Below are some pictures from a Side-by-side, before & after demonstration I did for the 2002 Bimmerfest in Santa Barbara. First I used a rotary buffer to buff out one half of the car and remove all of the light scratches. Next, I took little postage size stamps of Nikken Finishing Paper and sanded each individual scratch till it had been removed. Next, I used a compound to remove my sanding marks. The results were a scratch-free flawless finish on a 1991 e34 BMW M5.

How To Remove Random Isolated Deeper Scratches using the Feather Sanding Technique

Before

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_before1.jpg

I compounded the entire finish before starting the below process to remove the shallow scratches and expose the deep scratches.


Process

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600tapedoff1b.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_nikkensandpaperpieces.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600feathersandingrightside-med.jpg


http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_feathersandingcloseup1.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600testing84compound-med.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_bmwsidebyside2.jpg


http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_bmwbeforeandafter.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_feathersanding1.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_hoodshotafteroutside11.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_hoodshotafteroutside2.jpg


http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2BimmerFestBooth1a-med.jpg

Random, Isolated, Deeper Scratches, (RIDS), can be removed, but it is an advanced technique that takes skill, patience and the right products to accomplish successfully. (A little luck helps too!)

Do you own a rotary buffer and do you know how to use it?

Mike

[v12]

Thanks Mike for your fast reply!

Do you think it's fine to sand it with just 3000 grit or have to start with 2500 and then 3000?

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks Mike for your fast reply!

Do you think it's fine to sand it with just 3000 grit or have to start with 2500 and then 3000?

#3000 grit is like sanding with paper, it has it's place but if you need to remove tracers, perhaps look at #2500 and cut up a lot of postage stamp pieces as they won't cut for long when doing this kind of work, let the paper do the work that is use light pressure and some soap in your water to lubricate the surface.

If you push hard, you could run into the same problem.


This kind of work is truly an art form, not merely a step-by-step process.

Good luck... :xyxthumbs

[PaintPolisher]

There are two ways to do this by hand,



http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600tapedoff1b.jpg

Mike

The tape off is a Masterpeace - Craftmanship - looks cool. :xyxthumbs

[v12]

Why do I need to cut the sanding paper into pieces if the tracers are all over the hood?

[Mike Phillips]

Why do I need to cut the sanding paper into pieces if the tracers are all over the hood?

You titled your thread "Tracers", you called your problem tracers, we made the mistake of asuming you had tracers, now it sounds like you have sanding marks. Tracers are isolated and random, not all over the place, when you have scratches all over the hood this is called sanding marks.

You need to go back and re-compound the hood and try to do a better job or removing all of the sanding marks. You could try re-sanding with a finer grit paper first.


Is this a factory paint job? Or a repaint?

Have you ever done this before?

No one ever said wet sanding and compounding was easy. No one on this forum ever recommends or has recommended wet sanding factory baked on paint because in most cases the paint will be so hard that it will be extremely difficult to remove your sanding marks no matter how good you are at this procedure. Besides that factory paint is thin so you run the risk of removing too much clear film build in the process and ruining everything you're trying to accomplish in the first place.

[v12]

here a photo of the hood

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1014433.jpg

look how the swirls go in one direction, actually the sanding direction

[Mike Phillips]

here a photo of the hood

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1014433.jpg

look how the swirls go in one direction, actually the sanding direction

There's a huge difference between traces, sanding marks and buffer swirls, what the photo shows is buffer swirls also referred to as holograms.

Which problem are you trying to solve?

If the sanding marks have been removed and all you have now are buffer swirls, then that's easy to fix! :xyxthumbs

[v12]

others photos

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1014459.jpg

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1014460.jpg

great sanded factory fender waiting to be waxed!!

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1014461.jpg

[v12]

Mike how do you differanciate between normal swirls caused by daily driving and buffer swirls?

what products you recommend to hit it with?

[Mike Phillips]

Mike how do you differanciate between normal swirls caused by daily driving and buffer swirls?

what products you recommend to hit it with?


Swirls instilled by a rotary buffer tend to have a pattern to them, like this for example,

Before
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2700_ClubLexus001.jpg

After
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2700_ClubLexus006.jpg



After re-reading your first post,

I sanded the roof of my car with 2000 grits > meg 85 + w4000 > meg 83 + w7000 > meg 80 + w7000.




It appears as though your applying all of these products with a rotary buffer and your finishing with a cutting pad, the W-7000 is a cutting pad. This is why you have swirls in your car's paint. You need to re-polish each panel using a less aggressive pad.

At this point a good pad and product combination would be M83 with a W-8000 or W-8006 polishing pad. Even after this you're likely going to still see some swirls because of the direct rotating action of the rotary buffer. The best way to get a swirl free finish is to make your last step an application of a cleaner/polish using a dual action polisher like our G100. That said it's made for 110 volts, so we're not sure if it will work for you in Bahrain


Do you have access to some polishing or finishing pads?


The W-7000 foam cutting pad is a pretty aggressive pad to try to finish of a car with...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2rotarybuffer84b-med.jpg


We're sorry we didn't catch this right away but at the time we were posting to this thread we were also setting up for a Saterday Detailing Class (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18791).


p.s.

We have another forum member in Bahrain, perhaps you guys can get together and exchange some tips?

Here's his forum name


great adventure (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/member.php?u=3721)


:xyxthumbs

[v12]

Actually I end up with w8000, I made a mistake in my post, anyway I will buff it with Meg 83 then Meg 80 with w8000 pad and I will post the results.

Thanks Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Actually I end up with w8000, I made a mistake in my post, anyway I will buff it with Meg 83 then Meg 80 with w8000 pad and I will post the results.

Thanks Mike

You're still going to have swirls when your done. You need to do one of two things and in a perfect world both.

After your last rotary buffer step you need to either buff the paint out by hand or use a dual action polisher to work-out the swirls instilled by the rotary buffer.

Either or, your choice.

Using a dual action polisher will work better, be easier and faster then trying to use your 4 fingers pushing down on a applicator pad and trying to remove swirls out of the clear coat paint.


The next thing you want to do is to apply some wax. Wax will protect the paint and it will also help to fill-in any swirls you couldn't remove.

[v12]

What if I used w9000 with Meg 80?

Can Meg 80 be used by hand?

[Mike Phillips]

What if I used w9000 with Meg 80?

Can Meg 80 be used by hand?


Won't work. You'll still see swirls in the paint. You could try M82 with a W-9000 finishing pad and maybe get swirl free results or get very close. After that apply some wax and as long as the wax is on the surface it will be swirl free.

The idea is to get away from a pad moving in a rotating action on the surface.


Clear coat paints, actually any paint will scratch easy, swirls are scratches and anytime you have a pad in contact with the paint, with pressure on the pad, with a chemical between the pad and the paint, the potential exists for scratching or swirling to take place.

Now these swirls and scratches can be very fine, or shallow, but when viewed in direct sunlight how deep they won't matter because the light will reveal them to your eyes.

If you want to remove swirls, not just fill them in, then you need to incorporate a tool that uses an oscillating action instead of a direct rotating action. It's physics.

You might be able to accomplish this by hand, that is to rub the a paint out by hand after the last rotary step and in essence remove just a little paint by hand to completely level or flatten out the finish, but this will be hard to do and if the car you have is large it will take a long time because you'll have to do this to each square inch of the paint.

As for ding this with M80? You can try, maybe ScratchX too.

[v12]

Hi all,

today I have buffed just small part of the hood with Meg 83 & 80 + w8000

here the results.


Before
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1017222.jpg

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1017223.jpg

After
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1017224.jpg

Topped with Natt's blue
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1017227.jpg

[Mike Phillips]

Looks much better.

Remember: M83 as well as all the products in the 80's series are Water Soluble" This means these products are not formulated to resist or hold up against water and in fact just the opposite. They are made so that they can be washed off with a hose at a body shop after the work is done to get the residue off and get the car clean.

For this reason you want and need to apply a coat of wax or some type of paint sealant at this point. 2 coats of wax are best.

[v12]

Do you prefer to wash a car after using meg 80 or it's ok to apply the wax directly?


Another question, are these fine scraches are tracer? because it's in the direction that I wetsaneded

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1017225.jpg

[v12]

Hello Mike,

it returned back! could you please expain to me why it first disappear and then appear?

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1020225.jpg

[Mike Phillips]

Do you prefer to wash a car after using meg 80 or it's ok to apply the wax directly?


Personal preference I guess? I don't wash cars after I've buffed them out I move on to the next step, usually application of the LSP.



Another question, are these fine scratches are tracer? because it's in the direction that I wetsaneded


Tracers are deeper sanding marks that don't buff out, the scratches you're talking about look like buffing marks from a wool pad?

See this,

Tracers, RIDS & Pigtails (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26890)




Hello Mike,

it returned back! could you please explain to me why it first disappear and then appear?

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/4575kRV2O/1020225.jpg

If you have swirls and scratches again the you either didn't remove them the first time or you put them back in after removing them. Paint won't stay flawless by itself.

After buffing the car out did you put the car back into service? As in drive it? Washing it?

Or did you park it in a garage, close the door and leave it sit?

The latter will maintain a show car finish, using a car as a daily driver will eventually lead back to wear & tear on the paint.

:)