Product, Pad and Speed settings for the Rotary Buffer

[Mike Phillips]

Product, Pad and Speed settings for the Rotary Buffer

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2ProductPadSpeedRB.JPG


Additional considerations…

The above recommendations are only a starting point. Keep in mind; there are many variables, which contribute to the overall performance of a product, and the end result.

For example:

1) Paint – Type of paint, age of paint, hardness of paint…all of these play into which pad and product will work best for that particular application.

2) Pressure – Increased pressure means increased “cutting”…In some cases this is needed, and in other case this could be detrimental to the surface.

3) Machine Speed – By increasing the rpm’s of the machine, you automatically increase the action of the machine. This means additional “cutting action” for when using products that have defect and swirl removal capability.

4) Arm Speed – The quicker you move your arms back and forth, the less chance the product has to do it job. The slower the arm speed the greater chance of removing defects and swirls.

5 Pad Choice – The more aggressive the pad, the more “cutting” action will take place. You must first evaluate your finish, determine your goal, and then choose the appropriate pad to do the job.

6) Product Choice - You must first evaluate your finish, determine your goal, and then choose the appropriate product to do the job.


By evaluating the finish, choosing the right product, and using good techniques, a quality finish can be achieved fairly simply.

[detailforfun]

How about #26 and #20? What speeds and pads do you recommend since they both can be applied by the rotary too?

Thank you.

[Rick]

This list along with the one for the Porter Cable is much appreciated. I think I'm going to print both of them out on some heavy card stock to have on hand.

[Teak]

Mike thanks for the info. I was going to post asking for info on your chart, because I recently purchased a rotary.

Eric

[Zitosonic]

Thanks for the post Mike, and just to let know that i have use M-85 Diamond Cut 2.0 with foam pad W-7000 (maroon pad) on a car (use to have paint spots, oxidation, swirls) and it leaves a clean and swirl free finish.
I make a test with one side using just this combo and in the other side i then use M-85 Swirl Free Polish and really i cant see any difference under spot lights...

[detailforfun]

Originally posted by detailforfun
How about #26 and #20? What speeds and pads do you recommend since they both can be applied by the rotary too?

Thank you.

Any recommendations, Mike?

[Mike Phillips]

A good range for applying product like the #20 and the #26 would be in the low to mid range rpms, such as 1000 to 1500 rpm.

For pads, you should use either a polishing pad or a finishing pad, definitely not a foam cutting pad or a wool pad. I have met detailers that have used wool finishing pads to apply waxes, but the fibers of the wool pad, whether a cutting pad or a finishing pad will always instill swirls.

The only waxes I have ever applied using a rotary buffer are the cleaner/waxes, like #6 and #66, for #20 I have always applied this by hand, and for the #26 I have applied by hand and with the PC.


Mike

[detailforfun]

Thanks for a quick reply, Mike. The reason I ask because it says on the labels that one can also apply (both of them) with a rotary. I always apply them with a DA though. I might give them a try someday. Thanks, again.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by detailforfun
Thanks for a quick reply, Mike. The reason I ask because it says on the labels that one can also apply (both of them) with a rotary. I always apply them with a DA though. I might give them a try someday. Thanks, again.

It does say that these two products can be used by rotary buffer, but typically, I think you will always get best results if you apply any last step product by hand or with a dual action polisher, or orbital polisher. A lot of production detail shops tend to lean towards the rotary buffer for as much as their work as possible because it's faster than other application methods and will have a tendency to clean and polish at the same time because of the direct drive rotary action. That could be a problem too however.

Mike

[popiah]

Great info Mike. Will be certainly usefulw hen I can afford my own rotary.:xyxthumbs

[seandoleer]

where is the post for the porter cable speeds??

[detailforfun]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
It does say that these two products can be used by rotary buffer, but typically, I think you will always get best results if you apply any last step product by hand or with a dual action polisher, or orbital polisher. A lot of production detail shops tend to lean towards the rotary buffer for as much as their work as possible because it's faster than other application methods and will have a tendency to clean and polish at the same time because of the direct drive rotary action. That could be a problem too however.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Ok, it can be done but not a preferred method. Mistakes do happen, even with the most efficient/comfortable rotary users. Let say if someone decides to use the rotary application; does it help in term of better finish and shorter cure time?
Thanks again, Mike.

[detailforfun]

No comments, Mike?
I have used MPPP, #20, #26 and Nxt, of course, and other cleaners and polishes too – DC1, DC2, MPPC, #5, #7, etc…. I am just one of those guys believing in a system and following the manufacturer instructions.
I heard there are some benefits of using a high-speed buffer to apply a LSP, so decided to post the question here since one has that option in #20 and #26.
Who knows Meguiar’s products better then Meguiar’s man, right? Not try to put you on the spot, Mike. Just want to get some reasonable answers. That’s all.
I guess it’s not one of those very straight forwarded/right questions.
In any cases, thanks for reading. Btw, I’ve never used a high-speed buffer to apply a LSP.
:)

[Zitosonic]

i think the need of a rotary basically is to repair paint by generating heat using a cutting pad or abbrasive product...
so if the product to apply is not abbrasive at all and doesnt need any heat to work well there is no need to use a rotary...

i use to apply LSP's using a rotary at low speed and with a finishing pad because of time but Mike suggest me to use hands instead... comparing both methods i can't see any difference in time because when using a big machine like a rotary you don't concentrate at all in the shape of the parts as you do using your hands... and also you are little worried about grab firmly the buffer and dont make mistakes that can cost you time and money.

the combination of low speed and soft pad on a rotary to apply a "soft" product is not really different from using your hands or a DA polisher.

[rsa]

I have a single speed polisher (Milwaukee 5455 @ 1750 rpm). The only time I've used it (or any other rotary) was once 15+ years ago with 3M products and a wool bonnet and I did burnish in several places. Otherwise the results were very satisfying. I've got the urge to work with a rotary again using Meguiar's pads and backing plates and their professional line of cleaner and polishers.

If I were buying today, I'd make another choice, but it's what I have. Is the 5455 an acceptable polisher for personal use given that it's fixed speed falls outside the guidelines? I'm hoping that the "additional considerations" that Mike mentioned might mitigate the lack of speed control on the 5455. Or should I opt for a lighter, smaller rotary polisher with adjustable speed control like the recommended Makita?

Thanks,

Stewart

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by seandoleer
where is the post for the porter cable speeds??

It's in the Detailing 101 forum here,

Product, Pad and Speed settings for the Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2524)


I'm going to create a dedicated G-100/PC forum today and it will go in there.

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Hi detailforfun,

Originally posted by detailforfun
Let say if someone decides to use the rotary application; does it help in term of better finish and shorter cure time?

Typically when someone decides to apply a wax with a rotary buffer it's because they are trying to do the job quickly, as in as fast as they can, not because they are trying to do the job as best as they can.

The best looking finishes are from applying your last step products with a dual action polisher, an orbital polisher, or by hand, not with a direct drive rotary buffer.

Applying waxes with a rotary buffer has nothing to do with decreasing the cure time. After you have applied any Meguiar's wax, you need to allow some time to go by for the product to dry, in average climates this is around 10 to 15 minutes, it can dry faster in a warmer climate, and may take a little longer in a cold, wet environment.

You can always use the "Swipe Test" to check if your wax is ready to remove, here's a link to an article you can read on how to perform a "Swipe Test".

How to tell when a Meguiar's wax is ready to remove - The Swipe Test (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2166)

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by detailforfun
No comments, Mike?

Hi detailforfun,

Sometimes a post to a thread can slip by me. If I don't answer it as soon as you hope or expect, it's more than likely because I'm simply not aware of it, no other reason. This forum is open 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, world wide. I spend a lot of time on the forum everyday, even Sundays, often 12 to 14 hours a day, but I still don't get to every question. For this I apologize.

I have used MPPP, #20, #26 and Nxt, of course, and other cleaners and polishes too – DC1, DC2, MPPC, #5, #7, etc…. I am just one of those guys believing in a system and following the manufacturer instructions.
Me too! :D :D :D

I heard there are some benefits of using a high-speed buffer to apply a LSP, so decided to post the question here since one has that option in #20 and #26.[quote]

The only benefit I have ever heard of is the benefit of speed.

[quote]Who knows Meguiar’s products better then Meguiar’s man, right? Not try to put you on the spot, Mike. Just want to get some reasonable answers. That’s all.

See my answer above.

I guess it’s not one of those very straight forwarded/right questions.
Your question was perfectly fine and welcomed! :D :D :D

In any cases, thanks for reading. Btw, I’ve never used a high-speed buffer to apply a LSP.
:)

Sometimes the way a person applies their product is determined by what they want to accomplish, the time they have to do it in, or what their boss tells them to do.

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by rsa
I have a single speed polisher (Milwaukee 5455 @ 1750 rpm). The only time I've used it (or any other rotary) was once 15+ years ago with 3M products and a wool bonnet and I did burnish in several places. Otherwise the results were very satisfying. I've got the urge to work with a rotary again using Meguiar's pads and backing plates and their professional line of cleaner and polishers.

If I were buying today, I'd make another choice, but it's what I have. Is the 5455 an acceptable polisher for personal use given that it's fixed speed falls outside the guidelines? I'm hoping that the "additional considerations" that Mike mentioned might mitigate the lack of speed control on the 5455. Or should I opt for a lighter, smaller rotary polisher with adjustable speed control like the recommended Makita?

Thanks,

Stewart

Hi Stewart,

Variable speed buffers are the best way to because they give you the option of dialing in the best speed for the job and/or your comfort level. Also, some clear coat finishes are susceptible to hazing or clouding if you get them hot thus one of the reasons variable speed buffers with low speed capabilities have become more available from manufactures as clear coats became mainstream at the manufacturing level and in the re-finishing industry.

That said, a lot of people still use fixed speed and two speed rotary buffers and turn out good work. While the speed may be fixed, you can still control, time, arm speed, pressure, pad and product choice.

If money is no obstacle, and you think you'll be doing a lot of work with a rotary buffer, then I think you personally would enjoy doing the work more if you had a variable speed rotary buffer. If you're only going to use a rotary buffer once in a while, then use what you have to the best of your ability.

Mike

[mattfletcher]

Hi Mike,

Please tell me if i am a fool, but i am trying to remove light cobwebbing (only seen in direct sun and UV light) on a black car (2004 model VW Golf), using #9 swirl remover 2.0, a W8006 attatched to a variable speed drill (ie. rotary) at the lowest RPM.
The cobwebbing just wont disappear. It drastically improves it, but it can still be seen.

I tried a makita rotary buffer, but it was a multi purpose grinder/sander and was way to heavy. the drill is so light and easier to move around etc.

I am not pressing to firmly and i try not to buff the section too much (i.e i try to leave a haze of product, not dry it out)

What can i do? what product should i try next? are lambswool pads out of the question?

PLEASE HELP ME

Matt

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by mattfletcher
Hi Mike,

Please tell me if i am a fool, but i am trying to remove light cobwebbing (only seen in direct sun and UV light) on a black car (2004 model VW Golf), using #9 swirl remover 2.0, a W8006 attached to a variable speed drill (ie. rotary) at the lowest RPM.
The cobwebbing just wont disappear. It drastically improves it, but it can still be seen.

Hi Matt,

You're not a fool, you working with what you have. In the old days at the early drag races they had a saying that went like this,

"Run what you brung"

I've used a drill with a foam pad before and found while it is able to do more than your hand as far as polishing paint goes, it's still an awkward and imperfect system. Using a drill with a foam pad will probably get you close but not all the way there.

I tried a Makita rotary buffer, but it was a multi purpose grinder/sander and was way to heavy. the drill is so light and easier to move around etc.

If this was in fact a grinder, as in a high speed grinder, then I'm glad you stopped using it. These machines spin too fast it is inevitable that you will burn the paint.

I am not pressing to firmly and i try not to buff the section too much (i.e i try to leave a haze of product, not dry it out)

Believe it or not, the scratches that make up the cobweb effect you're trying to remove may actually be deeper than what the combination of pad, product and process you're using is able to remove. I've seen some pretty awful cobweb-effect where the scratches were very deep, here's a picture in fact.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2WhiteTruckBefore.jpg

That was taken from this thread,

PC+83 not "cutting" it! (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3056)

What can i do? what product should i try next? are lambswool pads out of the question?

PLEASE HELP ME

Matt

Well the best solution is to get your hands on the right tool if at all possible and that would be a dual action polisher like Meguiar's G-100. Using a drill to work on an isolated defect like a scratch is one thing, trying to buff out an entire car is another. For all the effort it will take you to run that drill over the entire car with a more aggressive product, followed by a less aggressive product and you're talking about a lot of effort.

Channel that energy into obtaining a dual action polisher or borrowing one and you'll have much better luck and your results will be much better also.

Another method of working these scratches out would be to do it by hand using Meguiar's ScratchX. We demonstrate this every weekend at our detailing classes, just read through the threads in the Detail Days at Meguiar's (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=36) forum and you'll find plenty of side-by-side, before and after photos of what can be accomplished using ScratchX, Deep Crystal Polish and NXT Tech Wax.

Here's a how-to article on how to use ScratchX to remove defects.

How to remove a defect by hand with ScratchX (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1516)

I wouldn't recommend getting more aggressive with your drill, this will likely end up causing more problems than it will repair.

Mike

[gauchoy2k]

Mike,
Thanks for the info. Stupid question....well it's almost boating season in NY and i will be purchasing a PC 7424. What pads do you recommend. I will be using the cleaner wax and the boat wax.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi gauchoy2k,

If you're boat is moderately to heavily oxidized, then I would use the W-7006 cutting pad. If it's just light oxidation, then go with the W-8006 polishing pad.

Now for everyone reading this that is thinking to themselves...

"I thought Meguiar's doesn't recommend using the W-7006 foam cutting pad with the dual action polisher?"

Well we don't. At least not on paint. Gel-coat is a completely different animal however and you can get away with a more aggressive pad with a cleaner/wax using the dual action polisher. But notice how I did recommend the W-8006 polishing pad if the finish wasn't too oxidized.

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

This includes products and pads.

Do you have any pictures if your boat in its current condition?

Mike

[gauchoy2k]

Thanks Mike!!!
My boat is currently shrink wrapped but hopefully in 3 weeks weather permitting i can unwrap it and start waxing. I will take some pictures. The hull has very little oxidation but the inside does have white chalk marks. I have always done this job by hand but this year i think i will put out and get a PC.

[bigyogibear]

I find your information very helpful, would like to be able to call you if I run into something I'll need hekp with, try duponts ******
for a finishing touch as a sealer, I have used this with great resulys. Thanks for the knowlege with speeds that helps a lot I also use rotary also speed adjustable polishers that started life as a grinder, its a little heavy , but handles the speed well, with the right pad and polishers I can easily do five cars a day, yes I do get tired an I always use my hand to spread the wax on, I use sponges cut to squares to get a even coat, works much better than the round terry cloth appliers I have a mizture of cleaners that will bring back faded dull plastics and mouldings, also removes oxidation and activates the paints molcues to life, will wake up a dull faded paint admazing what I have produced. bigyogibear saying seeya in the reflection!

[kboxer]

Hey Mike I tried the #80 with my dewalt and a 9000 pad. I did not see in the sun yet but looked great. I am going to try a spot with the 8000 pad tomorrow. I saw you dont recommend the 9000 pad but my truck is a black 05 explorer. While the paint is very glossy it has some spider webs. I hope I can get away with #80 and nxt tech wax over it but it may need #5. I will see tomorrow.

[avwh]

This list along with the one for the Porter Cable is much appreciated. I think I'm going to print both of them out on some heavy card stock to have on hand.

Where's the Porter Cable equivalent list? I don't see a thread in this forum...

[allenong]

I have a 2000rpm rotary without speed setting and i would like to know what paint cleaner and polish should I use with that speed? I just dont want to make the product dry fast when applying it with my rotary. This is a great forum.:db: