The Dual Action Counterweight 'Controversy'

[Jimmy Buffit]

The Dual Action Counterweight 'Controversy' (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3330)


I have one DA in our shop that is a few years old. It was supplied with a 6" counterweight to replace the standard 5".

The theory being that the 6" lessens vibration when using 6" pads.

So I just acquired a second, with supplied 5" counter weight.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/49Dualing_PCs_Small_.JPG

No perceptible difference. None Zilch, Nada.

End of 'controversy', at least in my shop.

Jim

[Tim Lingor]

Hey Jim,

That is exactly the result I have concluded as well. Then again, I always use Meguiar's pads. I have no idea if other pads may make a difference or not.

Tim

[gb387]

Sure hear lots about it and glad someone was able to use both machines side by side.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Jimmy Buffit
I have one DA in our shop that is a few years old. It was supplied with a 6" counterweight to replace the standard 5".

The theory being that the 6" lessens vibration when using 6" pads.

So I just acquired a second, with supplied 5" counter weight.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/49Dualing_PCs_Small_-med.JPG

No perceptible difference. None Zilch, Nada.

End of 'controversy', at least in my shop.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Wow! thanks for doing this test and posting your results! I've been meaning to order the counterweight for 6" backing plates and doing this same test. I've read for years how some people claim the heavier weight makes a big difference and even recommend it to others, but I had a hunch that any difference would be negligible (or non-existent).

Thanks for taking the time in your shop to do a fair comparison test and sharing your result on Meguiar's Online!

:bow :bow :bow


Mike

p.s.

I'm going to make this a sticky.

[Jimmy Buffit]

BTW, yes, it is a Lamborgini Diablo...

Jim

[gbackus]

I don't know if you guys remember Cujo31(something like that), he used to work with Superior Shine. Anyways, to make a long story short, his porter cable had a 5" counterweight, and amine has a 6" counterweight, at speeds of 5 and below, there really wasn't much difference, but at speeds of 5.5-6, using his porter cable made my hands hurt. I don't use the porter cable at speed 6 anymore as I have melted 2 backing plates, and seperated 3 pads before I realized what the problem was, but this heavily increased vibration at speeds higher than 5 may be what some people refer to when they say you should use 6" counterweight with the 6" or larger 6" pads.

[Teak]

Originally posted by gbackus
I don't use the porter cable at speed 6 anymore as I have melted 2 backing plates, and seperated 3 pads before I realized what the problem was, but this heavily increased vibration at speeds higher than 5 may be what some people refer to when they say you should use 6" counterweight with the 6" or larger 6" pads.
You had backing plates melt and had pads seperate at speeds above 5 and here I thought I was all alone.

Jim,
Thanks for the info. Do you use both PC at the same time?

Eric

[Jimmy Buffit]

Do you use both PC at the same time

Well, not me, but we frequently work on more than one car at a time...

Jim

[gbackus]

Originally posted by Teak
You had backing plates melt and had pads seperate at speeds above 5 and here I thought I was all alone.

Jim,
Thanks for the info. Do you use both PC at the same time?

Eric

I found that I get better results at speed 5 if I use a little more pressure(about 5-7 pounds depending), and move the PC slower than if I used to PC at 6. Not to mention I haven't had the need for a new backing plate since I started changing my habbits :) as with everything, ymmv.

[Blue Thunder]

The counterweights really only matter when you are using the PC as a sander. Then the vibration really shows up especially on low grit 100 or rougher papers.

[RamAirV1]

I have the 5" counterweight and run the PC wide open when using DACP. However I do like the suggestion by gbackus to run it at 5.0 and apply more pressure. There is a considerable amount of vibration at 6.0 but you get used to it. I have not had problems with any pads or backing plates melting but I probably don't use my PC as often as you pro detailers do. I only do my car and those of family members sometimes.

Jimmy Buffit, what did you use on that Diablo? It looks awesome!

RamAirV1

[everglo]

Originally posted by gbackus
I found that I get better results at speed 5 if I use a little more pressure(about 5-7 pounds depending), and move the PC slower than if I used to PC at 6. Not to mention I haven't had the need for a new backing plate since I started changing my habbits :) as with everything, ymmv.

I've tried that but noticed that rotation is lost at anything below 6 with a little pressure. This may be okay for the application of your final coat but when doing some cleaning/light swirl removal it loses effectiveness.

[Mike Phillips]

bump

[Hammer03]

then why do they market both? just out of curiosity...
it would seem to me, there is a reason they have 2 different weights. why would the company spend the money to tool 2 settings and produce 2 weights when they make little difference?

(i'm not arguing, just wondering, i dont have any first hand experience either way)

[sneek]

well ones supposed to be a sander and the other is actually a polisher but there basicly the same

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by sneek
well ones supposed to be a sander and the other is actually a polisher but there basically the same

The tool manufactured and sold by Porter Cable started out as a sander and has transitioned into the car world for polishing paint.

Both models with the different weights were options for sanding, not polishing paint, so I'm guessing that the weight difference might have more impact when all you have on the end of the tool is a backing plate and a single sheet, of lightweight sanding paper.

by the time you attach a foam pad of any size and then this foam pad begins to become saturated with liquid products, (weight), my guess is all of a sudden the difference in counterweights becomes irrelevant to the process and to what the user experiences.

Just a guess....

[RamAirV1]

Does the size of the pad matter when it comes to the counterweight? Probably not, but I was just curious. Aren't there two pad sizes that will fit on the backing plate?

RamAirV1

[sneek]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
The tool manufactured and sold by Porter Cable started out as a sander and has transitioned into the car world for polishing paint.

Both models with the different weights were options for sanding, not polishing paint, so I'm guessing that the weight difference might have more impact when all you have on the end of the tool is a backing plate and a single sheet, of lightweight sanding paper.

by the time you attach a foam pad of any size and then this foam pad begins to become saturated with liquid products, (weight), my guess is all of a sudden the difference in counterweights becomes irrelevant to the process and to what the user experiences.

Just a guess....

both for sanding? i know thats how they started out originally but i thought they changed the counterweight in one so it would work with the evil little white polishing pads

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by RamAirV1
Does the size of the pad matter when it comes to the counterweight? Probably not, but I was just curious. Aren't there two pad sizes that will fit on the backing plate?

RamAirV1

Actually there are two different backing plates available from Meg's:

The Standard W-64DA for the 6.5" pads
The Larger W-65DA for the 8" pads.

I have always used the 6.5" pads and plate combo. One of these days, I will have to try the larger pad on the DA (with the larger backing plate) to see if there is a difference or not. :)

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by sneek
both for sanding? i know thats how they started out originally but i thought they changed the counterweight in one so it would work with the evil little white polishing pads


Maybe, I don't remember it that way but you could be right, maybe we could get a Porter Cable Historian to set the record straight.

The big picture is this... a little tiny counter weight isn't going to make the difference between you getting great results or poor results. The most important factor is going to be pad selection, product selection, correct technique and skill level, (with a little passion thrown in for good measure).

Jimmy did his test and I'll order the other counterweight and test both of them till the cows come home and tell you what I find out. But seriously, I see posts by people all the time saying you've got to have one counterweight over the other and yet when I use the Meguiar's G100 with the counter weight it comes with we get this...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PanicTestSpot2crop.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PPFrontShot1.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PanicFinished1.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2CoolPanicParrotShot.jpg


We used the G100 on this Chip Foose Challenger to remove the swirls, scratches and stains and these people took two first places two days later...



Check out these two first prizes the owner of this Overhaulin Challenger (http://www.overhaulin.com/gallery16.aspx) received after we polished out the swirls using M80 Speed Glaze and then applied two coats of NXT Tech Wax.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2OverAfter80.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2StephanieJamesDoubleWin.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2Award2.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2Award1.jpg


Let me put it another way, what size counterweight I have on my personal G100 is the least of my worries when it comes to working on anyone's car.

How's that?

[inthedetails]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips

Let me put it another way, what size counterweight I have on my personal G100 is the least of my worries when it comes to working on anyone's car.

How's that? [/B]

Well size doesn't matter anyway, right guys. :xyxthumbs :D

[Accumulator]

The PC repair people I've spoken with said there were no changes made to the machines actually related to detailing and that the "polisher" thing is really about polishing metal (which is what construction guys I know use them for, very different from detailing). They claimed that the counterweights were designed to compliment either 5" or 6" sanding systems, that is, the different weights of the respective backing plates. Do they know what they're talking about? I dunno.

Note that any foam pad, especially when saturated with product, is gonna weigh a lot more than a single sheet of sandpaper.

Note also that detailing is about the only application for this tool where somebody will put pressure on it as opposed to letting the product do all the work.

I find subtle differences between the two counterweights at speed 6 and I use the larger counterweight with all sizes of pads (even 4" ones). FWIW, I find the machine bogs down less readily with the lightest combination of backing plate and pad and IMO we're close to overloading it's design when we use big pads on the thing- hence the "jiggle machine" reputation. It sure doesn't jiggle when you use it as a sander ;) but then people don't apply any pressure to it then either.

[Mike Phillips]

FWIW, I find the machine bogs down less readily with the lightest combination of backing plate and pad and IMO we're close to overloading it's design when we use big pads on the thing- hence the "jiggle machine" reputation. It sure doesn't jiggle when you use it as a sander ;) but then people don't apply any pressure to it then either.

Great points to bring out.

[hammer55]

thanks everyone for sharing on this, and everything else for that matter

[eric96ser]

Old thread, but I was cleaning my car up a few weeks ago, and with the PC on 5, my right hand was going numb. I hold the back of the buffer with my right hand, and apply pressure with the left. After working on a section, I would put the buffer down, and my hand would tingle. I was swapping pads, and I saw I had the 5" counter weight on the buffer, so I put the 6" on. Using the same pads (8006), and same technique, my right hand didn't go numb. With the buffer on a lower setting like 2 or 3, I didn't have this problem with the 5" weight. With the 5" weight, the buffer wanted to "walk" across the panel, and it was hard to control that.

[Mike Phillips]

Old thread, but I was cleaning my car up a few weeks ago, and with the PC on 5, my right hand was going numb. I hold the back of the buffer with my right hand, and apply pressure with the left. After working on a section, I would put the buffer down, and my hand would tingle. I was swapping pads, and I saw I had the 5" counter weight on the buffer, so I put the 6" on. Using the same pads (8006), and same technique, my right hand didn't go numb. With the buffer on a lower setting like 2 or 3, I didn't have this problem with the 5" weight. With the 5" weight, the buffer wanted to "walk" across the panel, and it was hard to control that.

Were the pads equally saturated or not saturated with product?

Every time to test or compare and different items, you have to have controls and reduce variables to the 9th degree or your results will be skewed.

[eric96ser]

I don't remember them being saturated with product. I think I had worked on 1 panel 2 times, and I use a cross pattern when putting the product on the pad.

[andyo]

same with me my hand turns red and feels like pins and needles. i put the speed on 5.0 and it is better but still red hand and no pain. though i only did my car once so far, so i might have to get used to the pc.

i have no walking and have the pad centered. maby i am doing something else wrong? first time painting and buffing my car.