How much paint are you removing.

[Superior Shine]

How much paint are you removing (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4013)

How much material (paint) is removed by the various processes of finish care that we perform on our vehicles in our endeavor for that brilliant SUPERIOR SHINE.

To demonstrate how much material is removed I acquired a damaged MBZ hood from a body shop that to the best of my knowledge still wears the original factory applied two stage black base / clear coat finish.

To perform my test I borrowed a paint thickness gauge from my pal and all around swell guy Brian White (forum name-deltman) This handy little device measures the material between the probe and a metal body panel (primer, base/color coat and clear coat ) in thousands of and inch or “mils� (one mil = one thousands of and inch). It will also measure for body filler and/or evidence of a repair. If you want to buy one expect to pay $400+ for it.



http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs1-med.jpg

[Superior Shine]

As you see in the accompanying picture, the black finish on the hood is severely scratched. The surface was also very rough to the touch.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs2-med.jpg

My first reading on the freshly washed hood was 4.2 mils. Now remember that includes everything from the metal on up to the top of the clear coat. Of the 4.2 mils, the clear coat is only 1.5 to 2.0 mils thick. I can only remove .3 to .5 (.5 being the absolute max) or I run the risk of premature clear coat failure. In other words if I remove more than .5 mils I will have weakened the clear coat and eventually have a dull area on my finish. If that happens it will have to be refinished in order to repair it.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs3-med.jpg

[Superior Shine]

I thoroughly clayed the test area then took another reading. The thickness was unchanged.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs4-med.jpg

I then applied Dual Action Cleaner Polish with a DA set on speed six. I took a reading of the DACP’ed area and I found no change.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs5-med.jpg

[Superior Shine]

The next step was to machine sand the area with Mirkas finish sander with a 2000 grit pad. A reading of the sanded area read 4.1. I then followed that with a 4000 grit pad and got 4.0.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs6-med.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs7-med.jpg

[Superior Shine]

The 4000 grit sanded area could have easily been polished out with something less aggressive but I choose to buff it out with Diamond Cut and a wool pad. That brought the reading down to 3.9.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs8-med.jpg

The hood got a buffing with Diamond cut again but with a W7000 pad this time. There was no change.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs9-med.jpg

[Superior Shine]

I finished the area off with DACP applied with a DA then topped off the finish with NXT. My final reading was still 3.9. The total mils of clear removed are .3, well within the “safety zone�.

I understand that many variables can play apart in the readings I got. The same procedures performed to another vehicle may not remove as much material or possibly more.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs10-med.jpg


Things such as paint hardness, pressure applied to the finish while I buffed, the number of passes with each product, etc, all come into play. But this little test hopefully will give you an idea what is going on to repair a defect in the finish.

Now it is time to clean up the mess. I made.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184cs11-med.jpg

[Tim Lingor]

Excellent write-up, and test Joe!!! :bow

Tim

[Bill Prentice]

Joe

Great demo, super information...

Thanks for sharing you skills with us.

Bill P.

[RamAirV1]

Thanks for doing that test! It was very informative. Is the clearcoat thicker on a Mercedes than on American cars? Is the clearcoat thicker?

That would be the perfect hood with which to learn rotary buffer use.

I noticed the lack of orange peel on the hood too.

RamAirV1

[scrub]

Great test and info. This did bring up a few of questions.

Did you notice very much surface correction using the 9000 pad?
I'm curious how much paint correction occurred if little to no paint was removed as read from the gauge.

Can you repeat this test on a domestic body panel?
I've read that German paint is some of the hardest paint to cut/buff out surface defects.

What determines how many readings and locations to obtian readings when using the paint thickness gauge?
Knowing how I am, I'd take a reading every couple of inches and spend more time measuring than buffing! :D

How does that Gauge work for fiber glass body panels?
4 down 16 more to go!!

Thanks again for the test and results. Very helpful. That little gadget seems handy and easy to use.

[Mike Phillips]

Nice write-up Joe and very informative. This gives people a really good idea of what's taking place on the surface when you use these different tools for correcting paint defects.

:bow :bow :bow

Mike

[Superior Shine]

Thanks guys for the kind words.

Scrub -
Did you notice very much surface correction using the 9000 pad?
Yes, the wool pad left the finshes dull with swirl marks (micro maring). The foam pad slicked it out and shined it up. Maybe it worked only on 10,000th of a mil level.
I don't know the limitation of the paint thickness gauge so it maybe impossible to read what happens in less than .1 of a mil.



Can you repeat this test on a domestic body panel?

Sure, have the hood of your car shipped to me if it is American.



I've read that German paint is some of the hardest paint to cut/buff out surface defects.

That has been my experiance as well.


What determines how many readings and locations to obtian readings when using the paint thickness gauge?

Reading from different areas of the same body panel will give you a number of readings within .2- .3 of each other. I took a few readings to get an average or just an idea of what I had to work on.


How does that Gauge work for fiber glass body panels?

This paticular one only reads on metal surfaces. Other do read coatings on fiberglass and plastic but expect to pay $3000-$4000 for one of those.

[scrub]

Originally posted by Superior Shine


Sure, have the hood of your car shipped to me if it is American.



No problem if you'll handle the shipping charges! ;)

[Rick]

Very nice write up. I haven't toyed with much wet sanding, but that gives a good idea of whats going on when doing that drastic of correction.

[gb387]

Very nice! Like all the info gives everyone a good understanding of what is going on. When you sand or apply product with a PC or rotary even foam or wool

Looks as if you could you say that the PC is removing little to no CC even with the DACP!?!? Seems the PC is very safe to use it time and time again with no worry that you are going to hurt your paint. Something that I have alway wondered.

Thanks SS!

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

I think Joe's post also points out that people need to use caution when wanting to wet sand their daily driver. :)

Tim

[macdude]

Fantastic write-up SS. Great stuff! :xyxthumbs

[DETLMAN]

Awesome write up Joe ! I love it.

Let me just add one thing to the list of variables, Joe mentioned that the had removed x amount of clear which is within safe specs for film build removal/paint correction. One thing to keep in mind is that unless you know the entire history of that vehicle you don't know if someone else has already removed 2-3 mils of paint over the life of the vehicle, that would put the paint into the too thin category and would be subject to failure.

Joe makes it look easy, be careful even considering wet sanding your paint finish.

[Superior Shine]

Brian is absolutly correct. Get an idea what the thickness should be for your paticular year make model and color of vehicle.

Last night I wanted to burn the paint and take readings as I GRINDED on the paint.

This paticular area measured at 4.2 mils when I started.
It took three times with diamond cut and a wool pad to get a dull hazy look to the paint. It measured at 2.3 mils and was very hot to the touch. At this point I am sure I was into the base coat.

One more buff got me down into the primer and measured 2.0 mils.

That is a total of 2.2 mils removed.

You can see the black on the white wool pad from the base coat.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184burn2-med.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184burn3-med.jpg

[HotRodGuy]

you are a nut :bow

[Lt1Corvette]

Great Writeup.
That answered a lot of curiosity's I have had for a while. The only other thing I think would have been interesting though extremely time consuming would be to see how many passes it took with and 8006 + g-100+ 83 to remove .1 mil of clear. Simply because I have seen that asked a great deal.

Great writeup Joe,
:bow :bow

[TOGWT]

Thank you for spending your time/resources to provide us with the information and your insights…/ :xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs

FWIW-I have this info. book marked for reference (I don’t remember its source)

German and Japanese cars: 4-5 Mils (1 Mil=1000th of an inch)
With the exception of:
Lexus-White and Tan: 5-7 Mils, Lexus- Black and Silver: 4.5-6 Mils
BMW: Silver: 6-7 Mils
FORD: Approx. 5.5-7 Mils
GM Cars and Trucks: Approx. 4.5-6.0 Mils, Jimmys and Blazers: approx 7 Mils
Chrysler: Approx. 5.5-7 Mils (Note Sebring hoods are fiberglass)
Dodge Cars: Similar to Chrysler
Dodge Trucks and newer Ram Pick-ups: Cab approx. Mils and the boxes approx 9 Mils
Jaguar: approx. 6-7.5 Mils (but they tend to vary)
Jeep Grand Cherokee: These read approx. 6-8 Mils, Wranglers: approx. 4.5-5.5 Mils

[RamAirV1]

Great info, TOGWT! Are all Sebring hoods fiberglass within the last 2-3 years? I was trying some clay and cleaner wax on my sister's Sebring and did not notice if it was fiberglass or not.

RamAirV1

[Scottwax]

Great write up and pictures, Joe. Very informative and well written. This should be a forum sticky for all eternity!

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by Scottwax
Great write up and pictures, Joe. Very informative and well written. This should be a forum sticky for all eternity!

Consider it done!!! :)

[KevinA]

Very informative article.

I really like the '63 or '64 Riviera in the background - my dream car! :)

[OrangeRcode]

Great info, thanks for taking the time to document this. :xyxthumbs

[Superior Shine]

Again thanks for the kind words.

My car is a 64.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184misc_877-med.jpg

[atclew]

Originally posted by Superior Shine
Again thanks for the kind words.

My car is a 64.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184misc_877-med.jpg


We need to tell Buick to bring back the Riviera!!!

Thanks for the great write-up Joe!

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/599riv-3-med.JPG:coolgleam

[RamAirV1]

GM needs to bring back the Riviera with an LS1 (or LS2) V8. That would be a perfect match!

RamAirV1

[tripper_11]

I just can't resist to ask you this and please give your very highly respected opinion on this one:

After the wool pad produced the swirls and hazing, you just jumped to DACP with W9000 finishing pad? I know the pictures doesn't do much justice, but is the finish really perfect upon actually viewing it (I mean did the swirls disappear)?

I'm asking this because if the answer is in the affirmative, then there's no reason bridging the wool pad and the finishing pad with the W8000 polishing pad.

I'm awaiting your explanation on this one!:bow :bow :bow


EDIT:

or the other way of asking it: could i jump directly from the W7000 cutting pad (with DACP) to W9000 finishing pad (with #80) to remove haze from W7000? then apply LSP by hand.

tnx again!

[wetlook]

I think he used a W-7000 pad (check the pic). Maybe it was a typo that nobody picked up on?

[Superior Shine]

I just bought my very own paint thickness gauge. I can't believe I have gone this long with just borrowing them.

I bought a used unit for $199 that is about $500 new.

I got it off ebay.

EBAY AUCTION (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4541982338&category=63702&sspagename=WDVW)

[PhilS]

This is probably not the time to point out that a device that can only measure to a resolution of 0.1mm will be, at best, accurate to about 0.1mm. Thus, when it shows a reading of 4.2mm that should be taken to mean anywhere within the range 4.15mm to 4.249999...mm (i.e. just a fraction under 4.25mm).

[rgilbert24]

Often wonderedho much clear coat I was removing with the DA and #80. Given your resulsts with using DACP - probably no much at all.
thanks for the information - very helpful.

[OCBen]

Great Forum. My first post here. Salutations to everyone.

With inputs from Mike Phillips of Meguiar's and Joe from Superior Shine, this is obviously an excellent thread, and it's the primary reason I decided to register.

I have experience in color-sanding orange peel off a brand new black Boxster. The procedure I followed was to basically sand off the "peaks" until they were level with the "valleys" and then buff to a shine. My concern is that I may have removed too much clear by following this basic principle, and may not have allowed sufficient remaining clear for future repair work, as Mike has pointed out in his postings.

Well, that car is sold, but I plan to color-sand my brand new Carrera which will be delivered at the end of the month. I think that this time I will just do a light sanding and not take the peaks down to the valleys (maybe half way if that could be possible to gage). The car's color is light grey and will not show orange peel as much as black does. Any suggestions here will be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Attached is a photo of the Boxster's rear lid.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/3841Reflections-1P-med.JPG

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by OCBen
Great Forum. My first post here. Salutations to everyone.

With inputs from Mike Phillips of Meguiar's and Joe from Superior Shine, this is obviously an excellent thread, and it's the primary reason I decided to register.

Thank you for the kind words.

I have experience in color-sanding orange peel off a brand new black Boxster. The procedure I followed was to basically sand off the "peaks" until they were level with the "valleys" and then buff to a shine. My concern is that I may have removed too much clear by following this basic principle, and may not have allowed sufficient remaining clear for future repair work, as Mike has pointed out in his postings.

This is a valid concern.

Well, that car is sold, but I plan to color-sand my brand new Carrera which will be delivered at the end of the month. I think that this time I will just do a light sanding and not take the peaks down to the valleys (maybe half way if that could be possible to gage). The car's color is light grey and will not show orange peel as much as black does. Any suggestions here will be greatly appreciated.

First, you might consider asking Joe to do this for you, if he will. Second, if Joe declines, I would highly recommend doing a Test Spot in one small area first before sanding down the entire car.

Find out if you can make one small area look good using your product choice and process before attempting to sand and buff the entire car.

Generally speaking, most factory finishes are hard as they are catalyzed and baked on at the factory. But... you never know until you test you system to one small area.

For a test spot, try using our Nikken #2000 grit Finishing Papers and then removing your sanding marks with either the

*W-7000 or W-7006 foam cutting pad with M84 Compound Power Cleaner
*W-4000 Wool Cutting Pad with M85 Diamond Cut Compound.

You could also experiment with #1500 grit and #2500 grit papers always using the least aggressive product to get the job done. I believe Joe also owns the Mirka Abralon System which goes to #4000 grit and because machine sanding does such a good job of flattening out the paint with lighter grit papers, this might be a good option.

Let's see what Joe has to say...

[Beercan31]

posted by Mike Phillips
Nice write-up Joe and very informative.
Originally posted by gb387
Very nice! Like all the info gives everyone a good understanding of what is going on. When you sand or apply product with a PC or rotary even foam or wool

posted by scrub
Great test and info. This did bring up a few of questions.

I'm being lazy and It's all been said before, except for WOW. If I'd only known then what I read now.

Questions:

1. If one were to go beyond the limit of the "Clear coat" but Clear coat failure or dulling have not occured can that complete panel be re-cleared with out going through the Primer, Paint, Clear coat process? The reason behind this question is "IF" I were to wet sand my clear coat to thin and re-cleared the panel would I still get the original clear coat to fail even though it was resurfaced?

2. Using your thickness gauge will you see deviation between the hood and fenders? Would the hood measure out at 4.2 mils and the fenders or other body parts be with in that measurement ? (+ or - a few mils.) or will the measurements be all over the place? (+ or- a lot of mils.)

Thanks

[Rusty Bumper]

WOW!......This is a great thread! :bow

It seem's that foreign cars have thiner paint according to a chart I just saw.

Maybe that explains why my Toyota thinned out at the top.

************************************************

Question:

I noticed that the wool buffing pad had an opening in the middle that exposed the arbor shaft. Do you have to keep this type of pad slightly angled to the paint surface, or is it possible to buff with the pad flush to the paint (Like a PC)?

[OCBen]

Thanks a lot Mike. I really appreciate your inputs.

I suppose I might have been better off starting a thread by asking if anyone here has any experience in color-sanding a brand new factory finish for the purpose of removing orange peel, since most of the applications here seem to involve fresh paint that hasn't fully cured or hardened. But with yours and Joe's inputs I'm sure I'll get steered in the right direction.

Do either of you guys have experience in prepping a new car for an auto show? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that new cars on display at auto shows have a far superior finish that those that come off the assembly line. My guess is that these cars have been color-sanded to get that mirror-like, smooth as glass finish. Well, that's the look I'm after. But I certainly don't want to remove too much paint to get there.

I don't plan on doing the entire car as I did with the Boxster, just the highly reflective areas like the rounded portions of the fenders and doors. Is that Nikken finishing paper better than the Unigrit? I'm not sure I'd want to go the Mirka machining route - sounds too risky. I'll wait for Joe's inputs and if it's something he wouldn't do even if the car were his, then maybe I'll just buff the entire car with a rotary polisher and be content with that, knowing that my paint removal was minimal.

[Superior Shine]

Questions:

1. If one were to go beyond the limit of the "Clear coat" but Clear coat failure or dulling have not occured can that complete panel be re-cleared with out going through the Primer, Paint, Clear coat process? The reason behind this question is "IF" I were to wet sand my clear coat to thin and re-cleared the panel would I still get the original clear coat to fail even though it was resurfaced?

YES, I have clear coated my share of factory finishes to either blend a repair job or to top flames or other graphics. All I do is clean the surface with grease and wax remover then sand it with 1000 grit paper.


2. Using your thickness gauge will you see deviation between the hood and fenders? Would the hood measure out at 4.2 mils and the fenders or other body parts be with in that measurement ? (+ or - a few mils.) or will the measurements be all over the place? (+ or- a lot of mils.)

Thanks [/B]

The thickness of the material will vary not just from panel to panel but also on different areas on the same panel. If you were going to measure 10 different places on a hood you will probably get 4 to 6 different readings.

[Superior Shine]

Originally posted by OCBen
Great Forum. My first post here. Salutations to everyone.

With inputs from Mike Phillips of Meguiar's and Joe from Superior Shine, this is obviously an excellent thread, and it's the primary reason I decided to register.

I have experience in color-sanding orange peel off a brand new black Boxster. The procedure I followed was to basically sand off the "peaks" until they were level with the "valleys" and then buff to a shine. My concern is that I may have removed too much clear by following this basic principle, and may not have allowed sufficient remaining clear for future repair work, as Mike has pointed out in his postings.

Well, that car is sold, but I plan to color-sand my brand new Carrera which will be delivered at the end of the month. I think that this time I will just do a light sanding and not take the peaks down to the valleys (maybe half way if that could be possible to gage). The car's color is light grey and will not show orange peel as much as black does. Any suggestions here will be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Attached is a photo of the Boxster's rear lid.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/3841Reflections-1P-med.JPG

NO GUTS - NO GLORY !!

Color sanding your factory finish can (as you already know) safely be done. How aggressive you get will depend on the use of your vehicle. If a daily driver, I wouldn't do the sanding or do very little. If you plan to cruise it on weekends and/or enter it into car shows I would most defiantly do it.

Wait to see how your car looks. Light gray doesn’t show orange peel to badly.

[OCBen]

Originally posted by Superior Shine
NO GUTS - NO GLORY !!

Color sanding your factory finish can (as you already know) safely be done. How aggressive you get will depend on the use of your vehicle. If a daily driver, I wouldn't do the sanding or do very little. If you plan to cruise it on weekends and/or enter it into car shows I would most defiantly do it.

Wait to see how your car looks. Light gray doesn’t show orange peel to badly. Thanks Joe. Good advice.

The Boxster was just that, a weekend car that I used to prep for occasional Concours shows. With only 7700 miles on the odometer after four years, that car spent most of the time as a garage queen under wraps.

Well, I don’t plan on entering shows with the new car once it comes in – I had my fill of that. And I do plan to make it my daily driver eventually. So I won’t be aggressive with the finish if I sand it at all. And you’re right, light grey metallic won’t show orange peel as bad as black does. Bit if there is a slight amount of visible orange peel, will buffing out with a rotary polisher make it not visible? I realize that buffing will only smooth out the orange peel and not flatten it, but if it’s barely visible to start with, maybe by a little smoothing will make it not so noticeable?

If I do decide to lightly sand in limited areas for the sake of “pre-flattening” prior to buffing, what Unigrit should I use on a factory finish, 3000?

[Superior Shine]

Skip 3000 and start with 2000.

[RamAirV1]

Is the orange peel in the clearcoat or base coat? If it's in the base coat there is nothing much you can do with that. I would think the only fix would be a repaint.

RamAirV1

[OCBen]

Well, on a factory finish, the only orange peel anyone can expect to remove is on the clear.

From my experience I learned that there are many contributing factors to orange peel. Even though you might be able to remove it from the clear on the surface, the paint can still show some ripple effects of orange peel due to the accumulation in the sub layers, starting with the primer coat, the several coats of the base, and the several coats of the clear. After I had the clear as smooth as glass I was still able to see some of the base color orange peel in the optical distortion of reflected images.

So if I do see some orange peel on the clear I may just sand it a tad as Joe suggested, and only in some areas not the entire car, and then buff out with a rotary polisher.

[Miracle]

Just be careful not to remove too much clear coat!

[BlueZero]

Thanks Joe and everyone for the great info. I know this thread is over a year old but I think there is alot of good information that shouldn't be tucked away too deep in the old posts. I've been wondering how much gets taken off for awhile, it's good to have a general guide.

[sneek]

:iagree: I hadn't seen this until today

[Rusty Bumper]

Thanks Joe and everyone for the great info. I know this thread is over a year old but I think there is alot of good information that shouldn't be tucked away too deep in the old posts. I've been wondering how much gets taken off for awhile, it's good to have a general guide.
It would be nice if threads could be ranked in a special forum according to the number of replys/ popularity/ etc. in it.

Maybe it help to keep older, valuable posts from disappearing.


Just a thought.

[sneek]

they can... the rating thing is on the top right corner.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/g.JPG
you can view them by most views/posts etc..by selecting it at the bottom of the main topic screen
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/r.JPG

[Rusty Bumper]

Thanks sneek!

I didn't even bother to check out the forum options available.

I'm a full time student and have very little time to post.

[Superior Shine]

they can... the rating thing is on the top right corner.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/g.JPG
you can view them by most views/posts etc..by selecting it at the bottom of the main topic screen
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/r.JPG


How about that !!!!!!!!:xyxthumbs

[OhioCarBuff]

Well, we have a good idea of how much paint we are taking off when buffing, thanks Joe! (and it looks like not much at all when using the PC & 83)

I always wondered- as you buff your paint over the years and thin the clear coat (espicially if you need to do a real agressive buff with a product like diamond cut & roatary), does the amount & depth of shine on the paint diminish?

[steini]

Hey guys,

Very informative thread, thank you!

How much mils are we removing when working with a product like Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner or ScratchX? Are we talking about the same 0,2-0.3mils as the creator measured with his procedure?

Cheers,
Simon

[Superior Shine]

Hey guys,

Very informative thread, thank you!

How much mils are we removing when working with a product like Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner or ScratchX? Are we talking about the same 0,2-0.3mils as the creator measured with his procedure?

Cheers,
Simon

My guess would be an amount that is hardly measurable.

[jfelbab]

A while back I came across this reference on paint thickness specification.

Paint coatings are getting thinner by the year. This book was published back in 1998 when automotive paint was still solvent based. Newer automotive paint coatings are even thinner since the EPA VOC regulations took effect.
The book is titled "The Automotive Paint Handbook" by John Pfanstiehl.

Typically, new cars have a total paint build of 3.5 to 5.5 mil according to another recent book I read.

This book lists the Total Maximum Allowable Paint Thickness Reduction Specification for the following:

Chrysler... Monocoat = .3 mil Clear Coat = .5 mil

Ford.........Monocoat = .3 mil Clear Coat = .3 mil

GM...........Monocoat = .3 mil Clear Coat = .5 mil

I assume that other manufacturers are about the same but I don't have any info on that..

The book states that removing more than the allowable will cause early paint failure and necessitate a repaint.

If only they could learn how to eliminate OP in the new paints.

[gasti_ako]

great write up

[iceboi714]

Scottwax2GREAT INFOScottwax4

Say you were to buff too much, how much would it cost to refinish?

[Superior Shine]

Scottwax2GREAT INFOScottwax4

Say you were to buff too much, how much would it cost to refinish?

Don't know, I have never had that problem! - :xyxthumbs

[iceboi714]

LOL....thanks again...i was just wondering...