Did I quit to soon....

[rundatrack]

MAn I had a session yesterday wiht my black car...

I clayed and went for hte 83 with the rotary...still having some issues and under the brights halograms showed...

I then PC with 80 and it came out perfect....

Was that a quit move or something...feel kinda funny like I couldnt get it properly with the rotary and had to resort to the PC...:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

Iz that a half-step move?


*shame smiley*

[Kevin Brown]

You did it right.

99.5% of the time you'll encounter some degree of swirl from a rotary... Nature of the beast. Always, always, and always follow up with an orbital (like a G100, Porter Cable, etc.) to remove or burnish remaining swirl marks.
:xyxthumbs

[Mike Phillips]

:iagree:


I agree with Kevin, if you're aiming for perfection under the most demanding lighting conditions, you'll need to re-polish each panel with a non-rotary buffer applied product.

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Kevin Brown
You did it right.

99.5% of the time you'll encounter some degree of swirl from a rotary... Nature of the beast. Always, always, and always follow up with an orbital (like a G100, Porter Cable, etc.) to remove or burnish remaining swirl marks.
:xyxthumbs

Agreed.... mostly. There are some people who are skilled enough to not swirl with the rotary, but these are few and far between. I personally never find myself not using the G100 for a final polish on a job. It is one tool in my arsenal that definitely has a permanent place.

[Pete-FWA]

When I first experimented with the DA and waxing, I felt like I was cheating.

When I heard others did it with polish, I thought that was the cheap way out. WRONG!

Using the rotary is the right tool for certain jobs. Using the DA is also the right tool for the job, especially for removing those last fine marks. Neither one is the "perfect" tool 100% of the time, but it seems you knew exactly when to use them both. :xyxthumbs



Hey, if using the Swirlon Mark II was the right tool, I'd use it....oh, wrong thread

[Kevin Brown]

Re: "There are some people who are skilled enough to not swirl with the rotary, but these are few and far between."

I have yet to meet one.
MAYBE it's because I'm too critical!
Personally, I can't do it.
I can get pretty close, though...

[tumbler]

i get hologramming on panels and have to go over them with a DA and a diff compound.. i guess its just the pad, the paint, the compound

[SpoiledMan]

I suggest you take a look at any pictures posted by GSRStilez. Sean is very capable of swirl free finishes with a rotary. For that matter, so am I with the proper products.:)

[Kevin Brown]

Perhaps I'll sign up for one of those NXTti classes the next time around...;)

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by SpoiledMan
I suggest you take a look at any pictures posted by GSRStilez. Sean is very capable of swirl free finishes with a rotary. For that matter, so am I with the proper products.:)


I think one of the ways we need to define swirl-free finish is when you inspect for it, that is...

1) Right after you've removed the buffer and wiped any residual product off the finish.

2) Right after you've removed the buffer, removed any residual product, then applied a coat of wax and removed the wax.

3) Down the road after any polish or wax has worn-off and you're inspecting under full-on bright sunlight.

I can make paint look swirl free using the rotary buffer according to the first two criteria, but from what I've seen over the years, down the road, after any polish and wax has worn off, because of normal wear & tear and because the owner is more prone to washing the car then to re-applying any polish or wax, then in bright light you can usually see holograms or buffer swirls from the direction in which the rotary buffer was moved over the paint. These may be very light, or shallow, but a swirl is a swirl.

Re-polishing every panel using a dual action polisher is an extra-step, but it is an extra step that insures that you have removed any swirls, (no matter how shallow they may be), that were instilled by the rotating action/contact between the pad and the finish.

I don't believe it's a case of how good you are, I believe it's a case of physics, pure and simple. Any pad rotating against the surface has the potential to affect the surface, in this case it will leave a swirl or hologram that might not be visible immediately afterwards, but over time can be seen in bright light like direct sunlight.

By re-polishing each panel using a dual action polisher, you change the way in which the pad action is affecting the surface and do remove any remaining swirls instilled by the rotary buffer.

It is possible as paint technology continues to change that paint systems will be developed that are not prone to micro-marring even when machine polished, and the Ceramiclear paint may fall into this category as I have found it to respond very well to machine polishing without leaving any swirls.

Of course black paint is the best test for any of this talk.

[RDVT4ME]

Originally posted by Kevin Brown
Perhaps I'll sign up for one of those NXTti classes the next time around...;)

Wait a minute Kevin.....aren't you the one who trained me on how to use a rotary at the first NXTTi????

Gee, you sure seemed to know how to operate a rotary. :D

[SpoiledMan]

Well, there is NO wax, glaze or any other form of "protection" on my black car that was finished with a rotary, W9006 and a finishing polish. The only visible marks are the marks that *I* made(soft Honda paint) QDing the car since.

From my experience I haven't found any products in the Meguiar's line that will fill the shoes of the finishing polish that I use and I don't know if any of the above posters have ventured to use the same.

I never indicated that I was the teaching type that could teach a NXTTi but I do know my abilities.:)

[Kevin Brown]

Mike... :iagree:

In the old days I'd hand rub with #7 after a rotary buffing session to remove a little paint. It worked pretty good, too! The swirls would polish away because the paint was soft enough to rub off a micro-layer by hand.

The paint technology of today seems to require an orbital finishing step to pass the test of time. For that matter, an immediate wash between buffing steps, or a simple spray of alcohol-based glass cleaner helps to expose the ultra-fine rotary swirl that is almost certainly present.

I say helps because sometimes there are instances when the paint allows solvents to penetrate or permeate the surface. When this happens, the paint looks fantastic until the solvent 'gasses out', or 'evaporates'. Then you'll see the imperfections left by the rotary. For me, it's best to just follow up with the orbital while you've got everything out and you're planning on doing it anyway.

Regardless of whether it's a one-day detail, or a thirty hour paint polishing session, I will do a final pass by hand or orbital. Since I'm the only guy that I can go to if I have a problem, I'd rather avoid it and do the extra step.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by SpoiledMan
Well, there is NO wax, glaze or any other form of "protection" on my black car that was finished with a rotary, W9006 and a finishing polish.

I'm proof-positive you are correct and I tip my hat to you. :xyxthumbs

[Kevin Brown]

Originally posted by RDVT4ME
Wait a minute Kevin.....aren't you the one who trained me on how to use a rotary at the first NXTTi????
Gee, you sure seemed to know how to operate a rotary.
Yes I am and yes I do! Thanks for remembering! :xyxthumbs
Originally posted by SpoiledMan
... I don't know if any of the above posters have ventured to use the same. I never indicated that I was the teaching type that could teach a NXTTi but I do know my abilities.:)
I am a member of MOL for a few reasons.
1. To have fun!
2. To learn.
3. To stay up to date.
4. To chat with people that have passion for cars
5. To teach.
If you felt attacked by me stating my opinion with a twist of humor, I am sorry!
Definitely not my intention...

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Kevin Brown
Mike... :iagree:

In the old days I'd hand rub with #7 after a rotary buffing session to remove a little paint. It worked pretty good, too! The swirls would polish away because the paint was soft enough to rub off a micro-layer by hand.

I was going to mention the option of hand-polishing after using the rotary buffer if a dual action polisher was not available, but didn't and I'm glad you brought it into the mix.

The paint technology of today seems to require an orbital finishing step to pass the test of time. For that matter, an immediate wash between buffing steps, or a simple spray of alcohol-based glass cleaner helps to expose the ultra-fine rotary swirl that is almost certainly present.

Hard or soft, I have found that the human hand cannot duplicate the results you can achieve using the dual action polisher with the right pad, product and technique.

I say helps because sometimes there are instances when the paint allows solvents to penetrate or permeate the surface. When this happens, the paint looks fantastic until the solvent 'gasses out', or 'evaporates'. Then you'll see the imperfections left by the rotary. For me, it's best to just follow up with the orbital while you've got everything out and you're planning on doing it anyway.

I agree. When your reputation is on the line you have to do everything you can do to produce the best possible results.

Regardless of whether it's a one-day detail, or a thirty hour paint polishing session, I will do a final pass by hand or orbital. Since I'm the only guy that I can go to if I have a problem, I'd rather avoid it and do the extra step.

You are your own best friend in a situation like this. :xyxthumbs

[SpoiledMan]

Originally posted by Kevin Brown
If you felt attacked by me stating my opinion with a twist of humor, I am sorry!
Definitely not my intention...

Attacked, no. Doubted, yes.

I know and appreciate the intention of this forum. I use a number of different products from a number of manufacturers. I use what does the best job with consistent results and ease of use for *me.* I like return customers and return customers that tell friends. I always get a call after a detail asking for more cards to give out. I must be doing something right as I have all the work that I'd like.

I would still like to attend a NXTti to further my skills in other areas though.

If you'd like to discuss the products used we can take it to PM's and I'll even send a sample or two if you don't have them or invite you to try the process if you do have them.

Mike I know you know how soft the paint on the Pilot is so you know what I'm working with in terms of soft. Look at it wrong and it's marred!

[GSRstilez]

I hope I am not stepping on any toes with this one. If I am, please be let me know.


Personally, I use the rotary exclusively. I was trained/trained myself under halogen lights/sunlight/gas station lights (metal hallide) and have been down the ugly road before. I have experienced haze, mircomarring, and straight-up rotary holograms. I have experimented with most of the Meguiar's lineup, Optimum Polishes, Menzerna, Poorboy's, Hi-Temp, Gliptone, and a couple others.

The key is to finding the right polish for the surface. For instance, Optimum polishes respond great to Mercedes paints, but don't make a dent in Audi's. They also marr the hell out of Ford. BTW: This is using consistent techniques.

The few polishes I have found to NOT leave anything behind but a perfect surface (after IPA wipedown in full sunlight) are as follows:

-Menzerna PO 85RD @ 1500 with a LC Black Finishing
-Menzerna FPII @ 1500 with a LC Black Finishing
-Meguiar's SFP (#82) @ 1500 with a LC Black Finishing

I have had some luck with Optimum polish with a black finishing @ 1200rpm, but not on every surface.

With all of these polishes, I keep the pad 95-100% flat, making very slow passes (3 seconds per foot) with overlapping motions. I will usually do 2-3 passes per bead of polish or until the polish is fully worked in.

You can check out my work over at Autopia.org. I post it all there. Furthermore, I have an Integra (very soft paint as mentioned before) and always rotary polish it. Even after months of only washing and QD'ing, no hazing or buffer marks whatsoever.

Like I said, I think its totally possible. Many times you need a light touch, especially on curved surfaces, but it is doable. If you have any questions further for me, I'd be happy to help.


-Sean

[rundatrack]

Ah....didnt want this spin on the thread...but hey...

Whaddup Sean hope things are going well....

:xyxthumbs ...I am the guy with the neighbors that honk all the time...LOL

[tumbler]

Hi Sean !

[Kevin Brown]

Originally posted by GSRstilez
If you have any questions further for me, I'd be happy to help. -Sean
Okay! :xyxthumbs