Need HELP! - How to avoid holograms?

[Tanat198]

Need HELP! - How to avoid holograms?

Hi Tim & Mike...

I just used the combo of #83 and Meg's W8006 with rotary buffer. I buffed it into powder with up and down and side passes. I set the Makita speed around 1400. The look under the roof is awesome, glossy and smooth. But under the sunlight, I was crused to find holograms all over the hood. BTW my car is solid black with a very soft paint.

1 How can I fix this problem ?
2 Should I buff 83 into power ?
3 Will finishing pad with #80 get rid of the holograms?

Thanks.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Need HELP!!! Holograms cure

Originally posted by Tanat198
How can I fix this problem and what causes the holograms?

Thanks.

Sounds like you buffed too long. You shouldn't buff till the product becomes a powder. This is called buffing to a dry buff. You should always stop before this while there is still a liquid film on the surface.

After machine cleaning and polishing with the #83/W-8006 combo you need to re-polish with a less aggressive polish and a softer pad on the rotary, or a dual action polisher. Then apply your wax.

Hope this helps...

Mike

[Tanat198]

Hi Mike
Thanks again for taking your time to reply.
I'll post the pics and results when I'm done. Hopefully, I can cure the holograms problem.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Mike covered it.

Just use a less aggressive product to follow the #83. I would suggest using #80 Speed Glaze with a W-9006 Finishing Pad or the W-8006 Polishing Pad on the rotary. Also be sure to work the rotary in a cross-hatch pattern (left-right, then front-back etc). Reduce the buffer speed to ~1300 RPM for this stage.

Finally, if you are still having hologram issues, then I would follow the #80 and the rotary with #80 with the PC/W-8006 pad combo.

Give that a try and let us know!

Tim

[Tanat198]

TIM & Mike
I used #83 and W-8006 combo, followed by #80 and finishing pad. Although, the holograms are substantially reduced, they are still visible.

Any tips?

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Do you have a PC? If so, place a W-8006 pad on the PC, set to speed 5 and use the #80. This should take care of the problem.

If you only have a rotary, then I would go over it again with the #80 but this time with a W-8006 Polishing Pad.

Sadly, holograms are difficult to avoid when using a rotary. Even Professionals with years of experience still get them once in a while.

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Tanat198
Any tips?

Yes.

Tim answered before I could but I will suggest the same thing, and that is to re-polish using the #80 Speed Glaze with a W-8006 polishing pad.

Also, read this thread,

Holograms - Is it possible to 100% remove them with the rotary buffer?

The above thread addresses your questions... Here's an excerpt I posted in reply to a follow-up question by chip douglas in the above link,

Originally posted by chip douglas
Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ? I was trying to attempt making a clear coated finish perfect using only a rotary, and I've almost concluded it can't be done and needs to be followed up with the PC.

If I do not wash the car and bring it out in the bright sunlight, then it looks perfect with #82, BUT if I remove the #82, then I can see the very light holograms.

My car is black btw.

Marc

Not always. It really depends on product selection, skill, technique and paint hardness, or paint workability. The latter two factors are things which you have no control over. Having too soft of a paint system can also work against you because the paint will be easily scratched or swirled.

I would say that in most cases, if you wash the car after polishing with a rotary buffer and any companies pad and polish, and then pull the car into bright light such as sunlight, then you are going to see some light swirls or holograms depending on your process. Most polishes are easily removed with water and soap, especially detergent soaps.

To create a 100% swirl-free finish requires that you do everything you can to the best of your abilities to remove as many of the deeper defects from the finish as you can using a compound or cleaner/polish. Then using good technique, the correct pad and a finer polish, you re-polish the area and massage out any remaining haze or swirls from the first step.

If you do everything right you can get to about 98% to 99% of the way to your goal of a swirl free finish. In order to take your results over the top to perfection, you will have to re-polish the finish using a machine that oscillates instead of rotates, and/or apply a product that will fill-in and eliminate from your view, the very fine, or shallow swirls that may still remain.

Just to note, achieving perfection on a painted surface will always be influenced by things like paint hardness and/or softness. The harder the paint, the more difficult it will be to massage out each and every defect, while very soft paints will be prone to marring or micro-scratching. There is a sweet spot for paint harness that gives you the best of both worlds, hardness for durability and resistance to deteriorating, yet soft enough that it can be successfully polished. This unfortunately is something you can't control.

Your point of origin, or reference must also be considered. If you start out with a finish that has gross swirls, as in deep swirls possibly instilled by running the car repeatedly through a mechanical car wash, or perhaps it was machine buffed using a wool pad and a compound that doesn't utilize diminishing abrasives, no polish or wax is going to be able to fill-in deep swirls like this and make the paint look good. So if by using a rotary buffer you can effectively remove the deep swirls, scratches, oxidation, etching, (or whatever the defects are), and create a finish that is 99% of the way swirl-free, then the difference between the condition of the finish you started with and the condition of the finish you have created will be dramatic.

Final polishing with the dual action polisher and a fine polish like our #82 Swirl Free Polish or our #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, and even our #80 Speed Glaze, or a good quality polish or wax, (or both), will be enough to carry your results over the top.

It all comes down to the fact that in order to remove a defect you have to touch the surface, (in one way or another), and remove small particles of paint in an effort to level or flatten the surface. The trick then is to use a system that is able to remove defects, without instilling its own defects.

Does this help?

Mike

[Tanat198]

Hi Tim & Mike
This morning, I tried #81 with finishing pad. I made a few passes only up and down, let the weight of the Makita do all the work. Then I pulled the car back into the sun. From the look in front of the hood, holograms are gone...BUT if I stand at the driver's door and look from that angle. I still see vertical lines along the hood. Is this as good as it gets?
BTW, the local distributor doesn't carry #80. I only have #81. Sorry for a typo earlier.

[Tanat198]

Hi Mike & Tim
I've been thinking that after I applied P21S GEPC and #81 side by side. The holograms disappeared from P21S side but a little bit visible on #81's. Is it because the oil from P21S just covers the holograms?

Thks again.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

That is the problem. Meguiar's #81 Hand Polish is a pure polish and does not contain cleaners. Therefore, after using the #81, there will be little change except from the slight cleaning ability created by the pad itself.

You will need to use a cleaner/polish if you want to remove the holograms. If you can not obtain #80, then I would try and find either #82 Swirl Free Polish or #9 Swirl Remover and then go over the finish again. After using the #82 or #9 then you can follow with #81, by hand.

Try the above, and keep us posted!

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Tanat198
I've been thinking that after I applied P21S GEPC and #81 side by side. The holograms disappeared from P21S side but a little bit visible on #81's. Is it because the oil from P21S just covers the holograms?

Thks again.

Hi Tanat198,

If you re-read you question above, and then re-read the below quote from my second reply in this thread you have started, you will see that you have done exactly what I describe in my reply.

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
If you do everything right you can get to about 98% to 99% of the way to your goal of a swirl free finish. In order to take your results over the top to perfection, you will have to re-polish the finish using a machine that oscillates instead of rotates, and/or apply a product that will fill-in and eliminate from your view, the very fine, or shallow swirls that may still remain.

Let me break the above down into two parts,

Part One

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
If you do everything right you can get to about 98% to 99% of the way to your goal of a swirl free finish.

You did this. You used a rotary buffer with the #83 DACP with a W-8006 polishing pad. Experience teaches this combination of pad and product when used on a rotary buffer will remove a majority of the below surface defects. The only scratches or swirls left will be deep enough that it will require a compound like #84 with a cutting pad, or the swirls and scratches are too deep that they cannot be safely removed without harming the clear coat.

I'll assume after you machine cleaned the finish with the #83/W-8006/rotary buffer combination, you were satisfied with the overall results, specific to removing the deeper defects and restoring a high gloss, clear finish.

If so, then you did everything right you cold to take the finish to about 98% to 99% of your goal of a swirl free finish.


Part Two

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
In order to take your results over the top to perfection, you will have to re-polish the finish using a machine that oscillates instead of rotates, and/or apply a product that will fill-in and eliminate from your view, the very fine, or shallow swirls that may still remain.

You haven't done this, (used a dual action polisher to re-polish the area), but you did re-polish the area using a softer pad and a non-abrasive pure polish. This is a step in the right direction. Using a product like #82 Swirl Free Polish or #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 with a finishing pad like Meguiar's W-9006 or W-9000 on a rotary buffer will be more effective than using a pure polish like th #81 because both of these contain a light cleaning action from the diminishing abrasive in them. Enough cleaning action to remove the swirls that remain by knocking the high points down so that the surface is 99% level or flat. (Not flat like in dull, but flat like in smooth)

Even after that step, if you could re-polish the finish again using a polisher that offers a fast oscillating action, like Meguiar's G-100 Dual Action Polisher, with either a polishing pad or a finishing pad and second application of a light cleaner polish, you could bring your finish quality up to an even higher level. 99.9% in some peoples eyes, 100% in other peoples eyes.

Then apply a good quality wax and you will take your results over the top. You will create a swirl-free, flawless finish that will withstand even the sharpest eyes under the harshest of lighting conditions.

When you applied the P21S Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleaner, this is what you did. You either removed some more of the high points of the swirls, or filled in the lightest remaining below surface low points to create a perfectly flat surface which appears to our eyes as a swirl-free, high gloss, crystal clear show car finish. The P21S Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleaner is a very gentle paint cleaner, hard to say without being there if it filled them or removed them, but it probably filled them in.

You could get the same results and add a richer look by using a wax like the NXT Tech Wax, (with even better ability to eliminate those fine swirls, #26 Hi Tech Yellow Wax, or Gold Class Wax as all these waxes add more richness to color than the P21S.


One other note, when you buffed the #83 DACP to a dry buff, you could have started to re-instill swirls deeper than what the the #81, (a non-abrasive pure polish), and whatever cleaning action offered by the W-9006 finishing pad, (This is a very soft foam and not intended clean, or remove paint), could remove.

The real cure might be to go back to the #83 DACP with the W-8006 polishing pad and re-clean the entire surface only this time don't buff to a dry buff. Buff long enough to remove the deeper swirls and long enough to allow the diminishing abrasive to breakdown, but not too long that your product becomes dry or powdery. Clean your pad often with a nylon brush and only use enough product to get the job done, don't over use product, don't under use products.

When you buff to a dry buff, you have lost the lubricity between your buffing pad and the finish. At this point, Newton's laws of motion kick in and friction increases thus the potential to instill swirls.

Re-read this passage from my second reply in this thread,

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
To create a 100% swirl-free finish requires that you do everything you can to the best of your abilities to remove as many of the deeper defects from the finish as you can using a compound or cleaner/polish. Then using good technique, the correct pad and a finer polish, you re-polish the area and massage out any remaining haze or swirls from the first step.

To create a swirl-free, flawless finish, you have do everything you can to the best of your abilities. Period.

When you buff to a dry buff, even though it was unintentional, you were not doing everything you could to the best of your abilities. I myself have re-polished areas that I have over-buffed to insure I was not the cause of the swirl.

Polishing paint in such a way to create swirl free, show car results is an "Art Form". Like my good friend and member of this forum, Jimmy Buffit, states in his signature,

"If it was easy, everybody'd be doing it!"



At this point, I would opt for,

• *Starting over with the #83/W-8006/Rotary buffer and don't buff to a dry buff
  * Locate some #82 or #9 and re-polish the area with the W-9006 with the rotary buffer
  * Locate a dual action polisher like the G-100a and re-polishing the car with some #82 or #80 with the W-8006 polishing pad on about the 4.5 to 5.0 setting. Use a slow arm speed and work each section evenly, methodically and with care and passion.

Then, get your ands on one of these waxes,

NXT Generation Tech Wax
Deep Crystal System Carnauba Wax
Gold Class Clear Coat Car Wax
#26 Hi Tech Yellow Wax
Medallion Premium Paint Protection

Any of the above Meguiar's waxes will add richness of color, shaper reflections, and a deep, wet-look to the results you have created over the product you were using. Try it side by side on black paint.

Hope this helps...

Mike

p.s.

What did the finish look like before you started? Was it really bad as in neglected and filled with swirls, or pretty good condition, just need some attention?

[Tanat198]

Tim & Mike
I start to think that it's impossible for me to totally cure holograms on my car. This morning I started to do everything all over again, taking on your advice. I did #83 + W8006 first. Then I used my old Black&Decker orbital polisher (speed@4400opm) with another leftover of 3M Swirl Remover. The holograms are still very much visible (but better). I am really frustrated. So on the hood, I did #83 with rotary, followed by 3M Swirl remover, P21S, #81 and then NXT wax. (Knowing that those holograms will tempolary disappear. )
Perhaps, I should go to the PRO

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

The holograms were instilled with a more aggressive product and method (a rotary buffer). The deeper swirls/holograms will remain unless a more aggressive method (a rotary) and a less aggressive product (#82) is used.

Therefore, I would follow the #83 DACP with a product like #82 Swirl Free Polish with the rotary (1300 RPM) and a clean W-8006 Pad. After this step, then I would follow with the orbital and the #82 Swirl Free Polish again. In many cases, using an orbital and a mild swirl remover is just not aggressive enough to remove holograms.

If the above does not do it, then it may require the experience of a Pro Detailer to remove. It takes MANY years of experience to use a rotary properly, so do not feel bad.

Try the above and let us know!

Tim

[Tanat198]

TIM
Happy New Year (From Thailand)
Thanks for your encouragement. First, I have to locate #82 first. (not sure if it's available in small size) then start everything all over again. I feel that #83 with w8006 will leave holograms anyway but the follow-up with remove them. Can a pro do #83 and a rotary without any holograms, just curious.

Thks again Tim..You've been very helpful, as usual.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Tanat198
First, I have to locate #82 first. (not sure if it's available in small size)

The smallest size the #82 Swirl Free Polish comes in is a 32 ounce bottle.

Can a pro do #83 and a rotary without any holograms, just curious.

Probably not when viewed in bright light like sunlight.

Mike