Can SwirlX scratch with too much pressure

[bcwang]

I was doing swirlx on my gas cap with an MF towel as a test to remove some swirls (of course), I first started lightly and it wasn't quite coming out so then started pressing pretty hard (with passion). Uh oh, I already saw some circular patterns through the product haze. I wiped it off and now saw these scratches that followed the rubbing pattern I used. I thought a piece of grit might have been on the towel but visual inspection showed nothing. But there were these rather large (salt sized) crystal looking things in the towel. I moved on to a different portion of the towel just in case and tried to see if those scratches would come out, nope. And again, looking at the towel I see these crystal looking things again after using swirlx.

The scratches look very bad, like someone trying to get a ball point pen writing using my gas cap. I tried mothers scratch remover and it didn't do a thing. And I tried more swirlx with no affect. The swirls are gone though, but these deep looking scratches are very obvious. Can't feel it with a fingernail though so hopefully they aren't deep.

So my questions:
-what are those crystal things in the swirlx residue, which show up as you start rubbing it in? they look kinda big though

-Can swirlx scratch like that with too much pressure, or is it likely to be some invisible grit in my MF towel?

-what do you recommend to get the scratches out? From the aggresiveness chart it looks like scratchx 2.0 is only one level up from this, and ultimate compound one more up. For working such a small area are one of those necessary or can swirlx do it already with more time or pressure working the area?

[Mike Phillips]

You can scratch paint from rubbing it too hard with just your clean finger.


Used correctly, SwirlX removes swirls and scratches, not instills them.

[Mike Phillips]

Try using a clean, foam applicator pad to apply the product instead of a microfiber towel.

The car should be washed and clean also, no dirt or grit on the car.

As for what's in side the bottle? That's proprietary information.


What are you working on?
What are you trying to accomplish?

If you're new to Meguiar's products, what have you been using in the past?

[Mike Phillips]

Found it...

Post #8 here,
http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-det...ned-paint.html

Originally Posted by bcwang

If it was single stage and so hard to correct, would it also be difficult to put in some nasty scratches while using SwirlX with too much pressure? Because that's exactly what happened to it while trying swirlx on the gas cap, it put in nice deep scratches when I pressed too hard.

I wonder if there is an easy way to figure out if it's single stage or not. Maybe use a non white polish on a non white applicator and see if it turns white?

Just to note, the comments about single stage white paint being very hard probably came from this article I wrote in 2003

A Lesson From White Paint

To test for a single stage paint, from our "How To Articles" forum.

How To Test for a Clearcoat or Single Stage Paint Finish


That said, chances are very good that your 2000 Mirage has a basecoat/clearcoat finish.

Originally Posted by bcwang

-what do you recommend to get the scratches out?

From the aggressiveness chart it looks like ScratchX 2.0 is only one level up from this, and ultimate compound one more up.

For working such a small area are one of those necessary or can SwirlX do it already with more time or pressure working the area?

First, polishing paint is an art form, not a mere mechanical process if the goal is to make the paint look good, so you have to balance pressure with technique and the right products.

Applying a lot of pressure with anything can instill scratches, what you want to do is to switch to a foam applicator pad instead of a microfiber polishing cloth.

ScratchX 2.0 and Ultimate Compound will be better choices for what you're trying to do only apply them with a foam applicator pad.

With these more aggressive product you wont' have to use as much pressure, use firm pressure to engage the abrasives with the paint but don't push so hard with your fingers that 'you' put scratches back into the paint.

Remember when working by hand you're basically working with 4 pressure points, (your fingertips), not the entire face of your hand, that means you have the potential to exert a lot of pressure to these four small areas and that's where you have to balance your downward pressure to common sense so you don't push too hard and instill scratches.

See the pressure points?








Now follow me on this... in the two above examples from rubbing out single stage paints you can see the pressure points easily because more pigment loaded up where my fingertips were pushing the hardest.

When you work on a clear coat finish you get the same kind of paint removal and the loading up at the pressure points except you won't see any build-up because you're working on clear paint.

Just be aware of your pressure points. Working by machine solves this problem because you remove your fingers from the equation and now have a foam buffing pad applying even pressure over the entire surface of the buffing pad.

This is just one reason why you will always get better results working by machine vs. working by hand.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by bcwang

-what are those crystal things in the swirlx residue, which show up as you start rubbing it in? they look kinda big though

SwirlX is one of our new SMAT products that utilizes SUPER microscocip abrasives, if you're seeing something it's coming from somwhere else as it would require a microscope to see them. More information here,

What's the difference between Meguiar's Super Micro Abrasive technology and Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasive technology?

Originally Posted by bcwang

-Can swirlx scratch like that with too much pressure, or is it likely to be some invisible grit in my MF towel?

I've never seen SwirlX scratch paint. There's nothing gritting in the formula that would scratch paint. The problem must be coming from somewhere else.

Originally Posted by bcwang

-what do you recommend to get the scratches out? From the aggressiveness chart it looks like ScratchX 2.0 is only one level up from this, and ultimate compound one more up. For working such a small area are one of those necessary or can SwirlX do it already with more time or pressure working the area?

Removing scratches means removing paint in such a way as to level or flatten the surface without instilling scratches at the same time.

You must have control over each product and process, so try switching to foam applicator pads like these instead of whatever it is you're using.

X3070 Soft Foam Applicator Pad




Then try to work the scratches out carefully. You can try to use the SwirlX again but chances are it's not going to be aggressive enough so you might have to get some ScratchX or Ultimate Compound and give one of them a try.

We always teach people to do a Test Spot on this forum and part of working on paint whether doing a test spot or the entire car is besides good products you need to use good technique and that's where a lot of people have problems when it comes to working with the human hand.

[RaskyR1]

Is it possible that the deeper scrathes were already there and that you are just now seeing them since the fine swirls and scratches have been removed?

[Mike Phillips]

bcwang,

I'm not sure how far you are from Irvine as you list

Location: Bay Area, CA


in your profile. One thing for sure, if you come to one of our Thursday night "Open Garage" classes or our Saturday Class we will show you exactly how to work out defects by hand and machine and there's nothing like seeing how to do something correctly in person.


Thursday Night "Open Classes" for 2009
2009 Thursday Night "Open Garage" Schedule

May
May 7th - Thursday Night "Open Class" - Click here to sign-up
May 14th - Thursday Night "Open Class" - Click here to sign-up - Special Guest: Matt Davies!
May 21st - 1954 Oldsmobile Extreme Makeover - Click here to sign-up

Saturday Classes for 2009
All Saturday Classes are Open Classes, any Registered Member can attend by signing up for a class by replying to the sign-up thread.

2009 Saturday Class Schedule



Here's some pictures from our last Saturday class...

Wow!

Another spectacular group of people here at Meguiar's Garage today! Here's a few pictures, we'll add some more on Monday...

33 people in all attended today's class... (not all are in the picture)



Demo car ended up being Grandma's Honda which was in dire need of some attention...



Learning to use detailing clay...









Applying Ultimate Compound and SwirlX by hand...




Using the Brinkman Swirl Finder to check our results...



Time to compare working by hand to working by machine...



Nothing like hands-on training to flatten out the learning curve...







Arther is opening a detail shop in the Philippines!







Inspecting the results under the sunny California sky...

[bcwang]

In my case it was a microfiber towel bundled up to form a 1" square and so had lots of padding behind it. Maybe those crystal things were the clearcoat being sheared off and into pieces on my towel. The towel was clean and carefully inspected at the contact point before I started. But somehow I see these clear looking crystal things afterwards.

I'll try ultimate compound or scratchx 2.0 to try to get this scratch out. Can both finish to a completely swirl free finish or do I need to use swirlx as the last polishing step to get the ultimate smoothness?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by bcwang

I'll try ultimate compound or scratchx 2.0 to try to get this scratch out. Can both finish to a completely swirl free finish or do I need to use swirlx as the last polishing step to get the ultimate smoothness?

I've had nothing but great results removing swirls and scratches by hand using both of these products and finishing out to where it looks like I applied a quality wax, not a rubbing compound. Here's an example,

Scratch Removed using Ultimate Compound


Besides the products two other factors that have a strong influence over whether you will successful are,

1. How hard or soft the paint is, that is how workable it is
2. Your skills, abilities and experience to work products by hand over clear coat paints.

After teaching thousands of classes since 1988 I've met a lot of people that are not good at or not sure how to use their hand to remove small particles of paint in a way that they can remove a defect without leaving a defect behind.

Polishing paint is an art form as the paint is thin and easily scratched and dulled and once scratched and dulled it takes the right product, the right tools and the human elements of care and passion to restore clarity and gloss.

[bcwang]

I've had good luck in the past with mothers scratch remover and pre-wax cleaner in getting a surface looking really nice. I think this was probably more likely a piece of grit got stuck and rubbed into the paint, as my further use of the swirlx went fine though I avoided much pressure after the initial scratch. Other than the deep circular scratches which cover only parts of the gas cap, the rest of it looks very nice and smooth.

I think I'm pretty good doing work by hand, never had trouble before. It's the machine usage that I'm most interested in learning and the classes you offer seem like a great idea. Next time I'm going to be near Irvine I should try to sign up for a class! Thanks for the idea!