M09 & M80 Equivalent?

[sloban]

Hi all,

Do M09 Swirl Remover 2.0 and M80 Machine Glaze basically play the same fine polish role? Are they straight-up substitutes or are there cases (e.g. paint type, hardness, color, climate) where one is preferable to the other, assuming application with a dual-action polisher?

-- Scott

[Mike Phillips]

No.

M09 and M80 are very different products, they are not even close.

Did you read this on another forum?


Now M09 and M82 are very similar products. There are some differences in these two formulas, but most people probably couldn't see a performance difference if used side-by-side.

[sloban]

No, Mike, other threads on this forum. I've done a number of searches and read lots of threads trying to try to figure out the myriad of Meguiars products. Please help me out here. I know one is a cleaner/polish (M09) and the other a polish (M80), but if they don't play the same role, then what roles does each play? When should I pick one or the other?

Here's a concrete example: I'm dealing with a black car with relatively hard clearcoat that has a lot of nasty swirls and fine scratches. Nothing that catches the fingernail, though. M09 on a dual-action polisher won't touch it, even after 6 applications.

So I am going up to M83, which I take it is a moderately cutting cleaner/polish. My understanding is that with a dual-action polisher, this is the most aggressive compound I would use on swirls/scratches on hard clearcoat paint. True or False?

Then, I'll most likely need to follow that with a lighter polish, right?
But what lighter polish? M09 Swirl Remover? M80 Speed Glaze? M03 Machine Glaze?

Hope you can help. -- Scott

[sloban]

Actually, Mike, here are the product descriptions from the Meguiar's eStore:

M09: "Swirl Remover 2.0 is a deep gloss cleaner/polish. It removes fine scratches and swirl marks, while providing a dark, dramatic shine."

M80: "Speed Glaze provides paint shop safe protection. Removes light to moderate swirls, oxidation and paint defects. Restores a glistening “new paint” shine.

They are both in the section under Cleaner/Polishes. Now please help me out here. How are these "not even close"?

[Murr1525]

Try thinking of it this way:

#83 DACP - Moderate Strength Cleaner/Polish

#80 Speed Glaze - Light Strength Cleaner/Polish

#82/#9 - Extra Light Strength Cleaner/Polish

It isnt that they are completley different, they all use diminishing abrasives and contain polish, it is just the cleaning ability, and what sort of marks it can remove changes.

As the product descriptions say, #80 removes Light marks, and #9/#82 removes Fine marks. Subtle, but there is a difference.

Now, the difference between #9/#82.. I still havent figured that out...

[matt colvin]

Wasn't there a chart for this? I did a quick search, but didn't have any luck.

But yeah, Murr1525 said it best.

[Murr1525]

There is an abrasivness scale on the bottles...

[RDVT4ME]

Originally posted by Murr1525
There is an abrasivness scale on the bottles...

This is what I look for. It will give you a relative comparision.

#83 is a 6 on the scale
#80 is a 4
#9 & #82 are a 3

That should give you a good idea.

The other part of the puzzle is the pad you use. Cutting pad vs polishing pad vs finishing pad. When you mix the pad with the abrasive scale of the product you can fine tune the level of swirl/scratch removal to fit your need.

[sloban]

I appreciate the good information other posters have provided. But Mike, I'm hoping you can address the questions that I asked regarding how are M09 and M80 are completely different and what is the indicator for one or the other. And M03 as well?

And as a rhetorical question, why in the world does Meguiars have so dang many products that each do the same thing? And why is it so hard to get information about which formulation should be chosen for what conditions?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by sloban
But Mike, I'm hoping you can address the questions that I asked regarding how are M09 and M80 are completely different and what is the indicator for one or the other. And M03 as well?

First read this,

Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle


Because one of the questions you're asking is what's the difference between a pure polish and a cleaner/polish and the 5-Step Paint Care Cycle will explain this so I don't have to retype it.

Second, Meguiar's doesn't share what the ingredients are inside of our products and what makes them different, at least we're not doing this until all the other wax and polish companies start doing it. If you know of any companies doing this, especially on public discussion forums, then please share the links.

As far as the scale on some of the bottles, (that's what you meant by indicator?), that's just a General Guide. Remember, the professional Line is a line formulated and used by guys that work in this industry 5 and 6 days a week, they often learn the ropes or the lingo of the trade on the job, as in on the job training from those around them. For example a seasoned painter will show the new guy how he likes his paint jobs wet-sanded and the cut and polished, this would include showing him which products to use, with which pads and in which order. This would be true of products like 3M as well.

And as a rhetorical question, why in the world does Meguiar's have so dang many products that each do the same thing?

Often times people are confused that some of our products are the same, or do the same thing when this just isn't the case, see my first answer to your questions in this thread.

And why is it so hard to get information about which formulation should be chosen for what conditions?

We offer information on our labels, in our catalogs, via Customer Care Hotline, on this forum, and in training classes plus a how-to video...

It might be best if we start here...


What are you working on and what are you trying to accomplish?

Answer that and I'm sure we can better help you. Thanks!

p.s.

I have to write an article for an international magazine before noon today so I won't too active on the forum today.

[sloban]

Thanks, Mike.

Because one of the questions you're asking is what's the difference between a pure polish and a cleaner/polish and the 5-Step Paint Care Cycle will explain this so I don't have to retype it.

I have read that and all the FAQs and all the stickies. Note that M09 and M80 are both listed in the eStore under Cleaner/Polishes.

Second, Meguiar's doesn't share what the ingredients are inside of our products and what makes them different, at least we're not doing this until all the other wax and polish companies start doing it. If you know of any companies doing this, especially on public discussion forums, then please share the links.

I think it's obvious that I'm not asking about the ingredients! What would the ingredients mean to me anyway? I'm asking how are M09 and M80 "completely different" and how can a customer decide which product is right for a given set of conditions?

What are you working on and what are you trying to accomplish?

Please note my detailed example in an earlier post in this thread for something that I'm trying to accomplish. It's fairly clear, I think.

Often times people are confused that some of our products are the same, or do the same thing when this just isn't the case, see my first answer to your questions in this thread.

First, as I mentioned, I have read and reread that resource. Second, you keep saying how they aren't the same and don't do the same thing, but my statement was "play the same role", not "do the same thing". And my question seems simple: where can I find help in understanding when one would pick M09 over M82 or vice-versa. M03 versus M80.

Remember, the professional Line is a line formulated and used by guys that work in this industry 5 and 6 days a week, they often learn the ropes or the lingo of the trade on the job, as in on the job training from those around them.

This is the most telling response I've ever seen from Meguiars on this forum. I'm hearing you say, "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be using the product." I think that speaks volumes.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by sloban
Thanks, Mike.

First, as I mentioned, I have read and reread that resource. Second, you keep saying how they aren't the same and don't do the same thing, but my statement was "play the same role", not "do the same thing". And my question seems simple: where can I find help in understanding when one would pick M09 over M82 or vice-versa. M03 versus M80.

You would choose a light cleaner/polish when you have light swirls and scratches to remove. M82 and M09 are very light cleaner/polishes.

You would choose a stronger cleaner/polish for deeper swirls and scratches such as the M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish.

And M80 Speed Glaze is kind of in-between both of the above options. In some cases, you'll need to use one or two of the above and get a feel for how they work as each paint system you'll work on has the potential to be different.

As for products like M03 Machine Glaze, it's a pure polish, this means in Meguiar's terminology, it's completely non-abrasive. Another way of saying this is that it's not a cleaner/polish, it contains no ingredients with the intended purpose of cleaning, or abrading the finish.

Pure Polishes in the Meguiar's line
M03 Machine Glaze
M05 New Car Glaze
M07 Show Car Glaze
M81 Hand Polish
Deep Crystal Polish
M45 Boat/RV Polish

Cleaner/Polishes in the Meguiar's line
In order of their aggressiveness starting with the least aggressive and going to the most aggressive.

M09 Swirl Remover 2.0
M82 Swirl Remover
M80 Speed Glaze
M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish

This is the most telling response I've ever seen from Meguiar's on this forum. I'm hearing you say, "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be using the product." I think that speaks volumes.

Well I'm sorry you think this way, I think if you'll look at my posting history and read my posts you'll find I often times type up very detailed replies that the volume I think you'll hear is of a person that does their best to provide great answers to all questions.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=450637

Now what was it you're working on again?


What kind of defects are you trying to remove?

Are you working by machine and if so what kind?

If you answer these questions, we will better be able to help you choose and use the right products.

[steve-0]

please simplify product line

i know you guys like to offer lots of options but wow, if i used all the polishes you have on my cars my son would be retired before me! choose an agressive compound for serious defects, a swirl remover and a hand polish or wax if its that fussy. i really think its important to know the ingredients in these products to help us use them appropriately. and yes other companies do sometimes. theres not much in those bottles, but its got just the right ratio of ingredients to make it easy to use.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Just to chime in...

Meguiar's #80 Speed Glaze is a cleaner/polish that contains TS Oils and a paintable polymer that can be used on curing paint. It offers some protection until the curing process has been completed. On Meguiar's scale of aggressiveness it is a "4".

Meguiar's #9 Swirl Remover is also a cleaner/polish but is less aggressive than #80. It does not contain a paintable polymer like the #80. On Meguiar's aggressive scale, it is a "3"

Meguiar's #82 Swirl Free Polish is 'slightly' more aggressive when compare to #9. I have found that it tends to work a little better with the rotary compared to a DA.

Meg's #80 works well for mild to moderate swirls. Whereas, both #82 and #9 will work on very mild marring/swirls.

Meguiar's philosophy is to use the least aggressive product possible to get the job done. Hence for swirls, you could start off with #82. If it works, then you can apply your wax or sealant. If it does not, you will need to go more aggressive, and move up to #80, and so forth.

Now with that said, let me try and explain. The reason we need to know how you plan on applying the product is very important. Some products can be applied by hand, DA, or an orbital polisher. Others are for rotary polisher only. We also need to know your skill level with the above machines. I am not about to recommend #85 Diamond Cut and a wool pad if you have only used a rotary buffer a few dozen times. It could be a disaster!

Moreover, the reason we need to know what it is that you are working on, is that it will also give us a good idea if you are working on Single Stage paint or BC/CC paint; also, very important.

We at Meguiar's Online do our best to answer any question we can. And sometimes, misunderstanding of what is being asked for or what has been already answered, can happen. Obviously, talking with someone face to face would be a whole lot easier. But since, the Net is our medium of exchange, we need to be clear about our objectives and avoid said misunderstandings.

I hope this helps!

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Re: please simplify product line

Originally posted by steve-0
i know you guys like to offer lots of options but wow, if i used all the polishes you have on my cars my son would be retired before me! choose an aggressive compound for serious defects, a swirl remover and a hand polish or wax if its that fussy.

In the last couple of weeks, we've had a number of cars brought to Meguiar's with very scratch-sensitive paint, on each car we had to experiment with different combinations of products, pads and even tools in order to find a combination that produced a swirl-free finish. I worked personally on a number of these cars and I was thankful to have multiple options to choose from and test. Paint systems vary to greatly to make polishing paint a simple process with high expectations. If you lower the expectations then sure, you can get away with fewer options.

Now if we could just get all of the paint manufactures to create paints and paint systems that are easy and simple to work on, that would be nice.

i really think its important to know the ingredients in these products to help us use them appropriately. and yes other companies do sometimes. theres not much in those bottles, but its got just the right ratio of ingredients to make it easy to use.

I would say the trend will be to share less and less, not more and more... the focus will be on the performance of the products, not the ingredients.