What to do when the DA isn't enough

[swamper8]

Greetings everyone,
I have successfully failed at removing some moderate scratches off both my 05' Altima and my G/F's 06' Pilot. (both black) However I now have a good feel for what kind of scratch I can remove by hand with scratchX and what kind of scratches I need the DA for. I am impressed by what I can get out by hand, but most un-impressed with the DA. It seems the DA can only get out what I can get out by hand, just faster. I am using a 8207 foam pad and Ultimate Compound.

Anyways, What is the next step in equipment/compounds for me? I don't think there's a more aggressive pad/compound I can use with a DA? (correct me if I'm wrong) If not, I guess I have to move to a rotary buffer? I'd appreciate input on the next step beyond a DA if I've maxed out its potential. (I have watched all the how-to videos and read the articles on the DA, i'm positive I'm not doing something wrong.)

[AeroCleanse]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

I'm not sure about your pad. You can find a list of pads at: http://www.autodetailingsolutions.ne...fing-pads.html

You may need a rotary, seeing some photos of the scratch you are trying to get out would help.

[Bostonsfavson]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

What type of DA are you using? Have you tried the Kevin Brown Method? There are *very* few defects I can't remove using a variation of the KBM (LC orange pad and UC). If UC isn't strong enough for you, order a sample of 105. It has much more cut than UC. FWIW, Hondas have notoriously soft paint. If you can't get the defects out of the Pilot using a DA and UC, they may be deep enough that you don't *want* to remove them.

Bottom line: don't give up on the DA just yet.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

: The next step would be #105 with the d/a. Make sure you get the newer version that is approved for d/a use.

[Bounty]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

Greetings everyone,
I have successfully failed at removing some moderate scratches off both my 05' Altima and my G/F's 06' Pilot. (both black) However I now have a good feel for what kind of scratch I can remove by hand with scratchX and what kind of scratches I need the DA for. I am impressed by what I can get out by hand, but most un-impressed with the DA. It seems the DA can only get out what I can get out by hand, just faster. I am using a 8207 foam pad and Ultimate Compound.

An orbital polisher (like a PC or G110) is not much more effective at removing defects than your hand powerwise. Time savings are obvious and you sure don't tire out as fast, but as Mike P. will tell you, almost anything an orbital polisher will do you can also do by hand.

Anyways, What is the next step in equipment/compounds for me? I don't think there's a more aggressive pad/compound I can use with a DA? (correct me if I'm wrong) If not, I guess I have to move to a rotary buffer? I'd appreciate input on the next step beyond a DA if I've maxed out its potential. (I have watched all the how-to videos and read the articles on the DA, i'm positive I'm not doing something wrong.)

If all your techniques, equipment, polish/pad combos are correct you still have far from reached the limit of your machine. Let's start with product first...

Ultimate Compound is a nice product...particularly for something you can get over the counter. But in my experience it cannot remove the level of defects that M105 or Menzerna Power Gloss can. It is rated a 10 on the Meg's scale while M105 is a 12 and the Menz PG is slightly more aggressive. So you could move up in aggresivity of product.

As for pads, you are using the Meguiar's 7" pads...the least able to remove defects by size. By that I mean let's say you have a foam compound that is equal in mechanical abrasiveness. As you move down in size with an orbital polisher you will gain defect-removal power. So a 6.5" pad would do more and a 5.5" even more and the 4" would remove the most. Since the G110 accepts the same backing plates as a PC7424 you can pick up a different plate and utilize any size you like...again improving your polisher's performance.

Aside from pad size, switching away from the Meguiar's polishing pad allows you to either move up to Meguiar's Burgundy Cutting Pad or Meguiar's SOLO Wool pads (if you don't want to move out of the Meg's line) or go with any of the Lake Country CCS lineup that is more aggressive than your current pad such as the CCS Yellow, CCS Orange, or PFW (purple foam wool).

So now you have a wide variety of options to mix and match both product and pad to acheive the desired level of defect removal beyond what you currently can acheive. You could also utilize a technique like the KBM (Kevin Brown Method) to gain that extra 10% cutting power from the products/pads listed above.

Having exhausted all of this (many hundreds of dollars and man hours experimenting later) you could step up in tool. Moving to a Flex 3401 (true dual-action polisher) will give you a much higher level of corrective ability. The same products can be utilized as are the full range of LC CCS pad compositions in a variety of custom-spec designs from online retailers such as ADS, Autogeek, and PAC. Having had all three machines...the PC7424, the G110, and now the Flex 3401...I can tell you the cutting power of an orbital polisher at it's best is approximately 70 to 75% of the Flex. Beyond that difference in defect removal, the time and effort expended is approximately half and in many cases even more. It is also what I would consider the least powerful machine I'd choose to easily remove wetsanding marks short of a rotary (giving you even more defect removing options). For a difference of $100 to $150 it is well worth it.

The decision is up to you but having already invested so much in time and financial committment I'd try to alter your current technique (go to KBM) and start experimenting with new products/pads until you reach a level of correction you can live with before investing in another machine. The '06 Altima has notoriously harder paint than the Honda your wife drives so just like a mechanic, it pays to have a range of tools in your arsenal to tackle different problems. Also keep in mind if they are daily drivers you may not want a "show car" finish that will be ruined in a few months of acid rain, bird bombs, maintenance washes, brake dust, industrial fallout, pollen, bug splatter, and being kept outside...

Hope this helped...

[swamper8]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

Thanks very much for the responses. Yes I do have the G110. I do believe I am using the 7" pad. I didn't know there were additional pads/compounds that I could still use with the DA. I thought I would have to move to a rotary. I will pick up some of the pads/compound suggested and try those.

I have a heck of a time taking pictures of scratches, I only get reflection of what's behind me. I know there's a thread on how to take pictures of blemishes so I will have to go read it. But I DO have a good feel already for scratches I KNOW I should be able to get out and those I know I will have to live with. Perhaps a slightly more aggressive pad and slightly more aggressive compound will do the trick for me. I feel I'm close, but just no quite aggressive enough. I had to reign myself in when I first started and stick with the moto of 'least aggressive method to get the job done'. I was impressed how quickly scatchX got out very mild scratches. But I have scratches that aren't even catching my finger nail but I still can't get out with the 8207 foam/uc combo.

[swamper8]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

Alrighty well I decided to go down in pad size. I'm trying to concentrate on some very specific scratches. i got the Lake Country CCS 4" pads, Yellow (cutting) and green (heavy buffing). I bought the Menzerna Power Gloss, then read a ton of great stuff about the M105 so I bought some of that as well. I figure I will go after my scratches first with the Green pad and some M105/Menzerna. If that doesn't do it I will then use the yellow cutting pad with the M105. (DA Approved) If that STILL doesn't do what I want, I'm going straight to wet sanding. I bought some Meguiar's 1500/2000/2500/3000 grit paper, I figure if I finish with the 3000 and go to the M105 that should do the trick. I do have some orange peel and I'm under the impression that wet sanding is about the only way to get rid of that.

[Bounty]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

Alrighty well I decided to go down in pad size. I'm trying to concentrate on some very specific scratches. i got the Lake Country CCS 4" pads, Yellow (cutting) and green (heavy buffing).

Be very careful of the CCS Yellow pad. It is the most aggressive foam composition of all the Lake Country pads and often leaves hazing, micromarring, and induced damage to a finish which needs to be chased by another pad/product combination. I'd recommend the CCS Orange over the CCS Yellow. If you need more cutting power than the CCS Orange go with the LC PFW (Purple Foam Wool). It does cut well, but is an aggressive pad and not necessarily for beginners.

I bought the Menzerna Power Gloss, then read a ton of great stuff about the M105 so I bought some of that as well. I figure I will go after my scratches first with the Green pad and some M105/Menzerna.

Similar to the CCS Yellow pad, the Menzerna Power Gloss is very agressive and your last resort. That stuff is literally rocks in a bottle and while removing major defects it also leaves a lot of induced damage.

If that doesn't do it I will then use the yellow cutting pad with the M105. (DA Approved) If that STILL doesn't do what I want, I'm going straight to wet sanding. I bought some Meguiar's 1500/2000/2500/3000 grit paper, I figure if I finish with the 3000 and go to the M105 that should do the trick. I do have some orange peel and I'm under the impression that wet sanding is about the only way to get rid of that.

Sounds like all I'm doing is lecturing in this thread but be very careful of wetsanding a factory finish...especially without a paint depth gauge. Factory orange peel is something you oftentimes have to deal with because there is just not as much clearcoat as there is with an aftermarket paint job and no margin for error. In addition, an orbital polisher like a PC7424 or a G110 is a tough tool to effectively and speedily remove wetsanding marks from a finish. I personally consider a Flex 3401 the bare minimum to properly remove them without a lot of hassle.

If you absolutely have to wetsand for whatever reason start off with the 2500 grit. This might just be enough to remove the scratch or reduce the optical refraction enough to be minimized to an acceptable level. I really would advise against starting with the 1500 grit. The amount of sanding and compounding required to remove 1500 grit marks could seriously compromise the clearcoat integrity of a factory finish.

Just be cautious and work slowly....remember the key is smarter not harder.

[Sal329]

Re: What to do when the DA isn't enough

Pick up some 4" flat LC pads in Orange, white, black, M105, M205. This combo has been working great for me lately. 4" pads cut a lot faster and easier then the larger pads. Or (I have not used larger pads) you can try M105, apply a line goin accross the pad, work it into your pad, turn the PC on (spd 5) and with a MF towel on your hand rub the pad gently. Apply a pea size amount of M105 on your pad, place it on your paint, turn the PC on speed 6 and begin to work an 18"x18" section moving about 1" per second with pressure, but make sure you do not apply to much pressure or the pad will not spin. This is my understanding of the Kevin Brown Method, note I have not been taught the method only did a lot of searching on the net as I wait for what seems like it will be an amazing novel on his method. Then follow up 105 with 205 in the same manner with a polishing pad, do 3 passes with pressure and 2 with just the weight of the machine.
I do this process with 4" pads and it works great. I have read a few people using the KBM with larger pads and great results.
I personally wouild not wetsand without having a Rotary but that is just me