Question about polymers in car care products

[haydn77]

Hey everyone.
For my chemistry assignment at school, we have to research two polymers that can be used in a product and compare the two, then say which is better. For my product, I'm doing car care products, and one of the polymers I'm using is polydimethylsiloxane.
I read somewhere (On this site, I think) that polydimethylsiloxane is useful in car care products such as wax, tire shine, gloss polish and tire protectants. Two polymers I considered using to compare with polydimethylsiloxane are polyurethane and polytetrafluoroethylene, but my teacher said I can't use them because they are already being used by someone else in the class. Is there any other polymers that are useful in car care products? Thanks for any help.

[TOGWT]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

This may be of some help-

Protection Water- based vs. Solvent-based

The difference between water and solvent based is in the carrier system used. Solvent based products use a hydrocarbon silicone to suspend the product. When you apply it, the solvent evaporates leaving the dressing's active ingredients (silicone oil) behind; this type of silicone leaves a high gloss shine and will repel water longer but it is non-biodegradable. Most high gloss products are based upon (DMS) solvents. Water-based dressings (usually a milky-white liquid) use a combination of natural oils and polymers to offer a non-greasy, satin finish

Water- based dressings

Pros - fast drying, non greasy, non slick finish, matte sheen

Cons- limited durability when exposed to the elements, potential for streaking in rain

For vehicles fitted with ceramic brakes and / or pads; products that contain DMS solvents are not recommended as it can contaminate the pads and render them ineffective

Silicone [: more precisely called polymerized siloxanes or polysiloxanes, silicones are mixed inorganic-organic polymers with the chemical formula [R2SiO] n] [1]

Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) belong to a group of polymeric organic silicon compounds, which are commonly referred to as silicones.] CAS number - 63148-62-9

a) Water-based silicone dressings - usually a milky-white liquid that don’t contain petroleum distillate solvents that can harm rubber and/or vinyl over time; water-based dressings use a combination of natural oils and polymers that coat and bond to offer a non-greasy, satin finish
(Zaino Z-16 Perfect Tyre Gloss or Swisswax Pneu) Some of these products also contain ultra violet radiation (UVR) blocking agents to help keep tyres from cracking, fading and hardening. Most, if not all water-based dressings are biodegradable whereas solvent- based silicone is not.

b) Solvent-based silicone dressings - usually a clear greasy liquid, Dimethalsiloxane (DMS) that contain petroleum solvents as a cleaning agent. These penetrating-type silicone oils form a flexible protective shield that prevents penetration of moisture and dirt. Most silicone dressings, although very durable, leave a never-dry high gloss film, they remove the elasticity from vinyl, rubber and paint; causing them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a dry inflexible surface.

Most high gloss products are based upon DMS silicone oil, the difference between water and solvent based is in the carrier system used. Solvent based products use a hydrocarbon silicone to suspend the product. When you apply it, the solvent evaporates leaving the dressing's active ingredients (Silicone oil) behind; solvent-based silicone is not environmentally friendly / biodegradable

Many tyre manufacturers (BF Goodrich, Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli, etc) have issued technical service bulletins advising against the use of tyre dressings containing Dimethalsiloxane (DMS) a petroleum distillate solvent. This type of solvent will dissolve away the protective waxes and can actually aggressively compromise the sidewall. In the event of warranty sidewall failure, one of the first things tyre manufacturers look for is evidence of the use of these types of products. When found, this is often the cause for not warranting the tyre’s sidewall failure.

The big three auto companies (Ford, General Motors and Chrysler) have issued advisories or technical bulletins to their dealers to not use heavy petroleum distillate-dimethal silicone oil dressings for another reason; paint and wheel surface staining. Auto companies have found that it is next to impossible to remove the stains, In some cases, even repainting the part doesn’t' t work as the stain comes back through the new paint, requiring the part to be replaced.

Most factory styled wheels are coated with a clear coat type of coating. Some are more porous than others and use of an incorrect dressing may stain them the same as the body parts.

Reference source- 1. Wikipedia

© TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved

[TOGWT]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

1

[TOGWT]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Professor Frederick Stanley Kipping FRS (1863-1949) was an English chemist who was born near Manchester, England. He studied under William Henry Perkin, Jr. at Munich University in Germany, in the laboratories of Adolf von Baeyer. Back in England, Kipping undertook much of the pioneering work into the development of silicon polymers (silicones) at University College Nottingham (later University of Nottingham). He was the first Sir Jesse Boot Professor of Chemistry at the university.

He pioneered the study of the organic compounds of silicon (organosilicon) and coined the term silicone.[1] His research formed the basis for the worldwide development of the synthetic rubber and silicone-based lubricant industries[2]. He also co-wrote, with Perkin, a standard textbook in organic chemistry.

Further Information

1. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency website
2. EPA/Purdue University Study 2001
3. American Association of Industrial Hygiene (AAIH)
4. American Petroleum Institute (API) publications
5. National Petrochemical & Refiners Association (NPRA)
6. Sherwin Williams paint trouble shooting guide
7. Dow Corning Corporation Technical Library

Information resource

1. Wikipedia Encyclopedia- http://en.wikipedia.org
2. Royal Society of Chemistry (RSC) Library & Information Centre
3. Silicone Polymers - Virtual Chembook, Elmhurst College

[Poki]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Great information! So, where does Supreme Shine and Ult. Protectant fit into these catagories? I using both products interior, exterior and tires. Should I not?

[Jossy92]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Great information! So, where does Supreme Shine and Ult. Protectant fit into these catagories? I using both products interior, exterior and tires. Should I not?

Great question. Not sure if Megs discloses the chemistry behind its products.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Don't fall victim to the whole "petroleum distillates and silicones are bad" mindset. While TOGWT's post mentions the Big 3 having warned dealers "not use heavy petroleum distillate-dimethal silicone oil dressings", that does not mean that they recommend you don't use anything with any type of petroleum distillate in it.

These two terms, "petroleum distillate" and "silicone" are extremely broad and encompass an extremely wide variety of products. It is true that heavy petroleum distillates can be extremely powerful solvents, and they have their place (just not in car care products for the most part!), but petroleum distillates can also be so refined as to be approved for food contact. Same goes with silicones. In fact, there are so called "pure silicone" lubricants used in the food processing industry. These products do contain very small amounts of a petroleum distillate that is essentially used as a propellant (to spray the product out of the can) but these tend to flash off very quickly.

But back to how broad these terms really are, and why they can be so confusing: if you think about petroleum distillates in their harshest form, it's no wonder you wouldn't want them any where near your prized vehicle. But if you take that same thinking and apply it to something else, like plants, then you'd never eat another salad. Plenty of plants are deadly poisonous, others are just massively irritating, but most are pretty innocent. But you can't condemn all plants just because some will kill you. And you can't condemn all petroleum distillates because some are harsh solvents. Remember, others are FDA approved - think Chap Stick and other lip balms.

Get the point?

That said, imagine the liability if Meguiar's, or any of our competitors, made surface care products that actually damaged the surfaces they were designed to protect? And quite frankly, we are simply not buying truckloads of new tires, dashboards, etc for our customers.

Finally, this leads me to a discussion that took place on another car forum where one member asked for recommendations on interior dressings. As you can imagine, there were as many unique choices as there were responses as everyone seems to have a favorite. But one member flat out stated that anything containing silicone was horrible and that you should only use a water based dressing. (NOTE: just because something is water based does NOT mean it is devoid of silicone) So this member recommends a specific "boutique" product that he claims is not only water based but that he has used it on his interior every month for 5 years and his interior still looks like new. Great!!! Apparently he had hit upon the one miracle product out there, huh? But a quick check of that manufacturers MSDS on that product showed that it contains almost double the amount of silicone found in, for example, Meguiar's Natural Shine. Now, that doesn't automatically make either one better or worse than the other, it just points out a couple of things:

• "Water based" does not mean "silicone free"
• Those silicones that this member was so terrified of are totally harmless

Funny thing is, after posting the MSDS from that manufacturer, the guy who posted about it never came back to the discussion.

As for MSDS info on Meguiar's products - www.meguiars.com/msds

[SouthTexasRancher]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Michael Stoops...Thanks for the info although I am a little confused. I have next to me a bottle of Professional Showcar Glaze #7 which says it is a 'Pure Polish". On the back is the Caution Statement: "Contains Petroleum Distillates". I also have a bottle of Gold Class Liquid Wax next to it and on the back of it the 'contains p/d' is not there.

I've also noticed that many of the polish/wax/sealer type products on auto parts store's shelves also have Petroleum Distillates. One that comes to mind is Liquid Glass which is a very good product I've used on my bass boats over the years with the metal flake finish.

So my question is this...I had always heard that products with Petroleum Distillates worked like a chemical type cleaner as it polished/sealed and/or waxed. (Cleaned the surface of the paint that washing and clay bar did not quite get clean). If not then why have 'PD' in the product in the first place.

On a 2nd note when can the #7 Showcar Glaze be applied to a vehicle with Gold Class Liquid Wax already on the vehicle. A week, month, longer, etc.???

Many Thanks in advance.

[Sandstone]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

I agree with Mike.

For the most part you cannot use a petroleum based product like a wax without having some sort of petroleum based distillate as a carrier to dissolve the product so you can use it. The PD evaporates or flashes off leaving the desired product behind. Some car waxes are petroleum based distillates since they are distilled from oil. Some examples of PDs are candle wax, Vaseline, diesel fuel, gasoline and paint thinner...a very broad range of products some safe for your baby (the pooping and racing kinds)... some not.

[TOGWT]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

[So my question is this...I had always heard that products with Petroleum Distillates worked like a chemical type cleaner as it polished/sealed and/or waxed. (Cleaned the surface of the paint that washing and clay bar did not quite get clean). If not then why have 'PD' in the product in the first place.]

If a Petroleum Distillate (PD) is formulated witha solvent it will clean the surface its applied to, but not all PD's contain solvents.

[Don't fall victim to the whole "petroleum distillates and silicones are bad" mindset.]

As a Chemical Engineer who has been in the Petrochemical and Polymer industries for more than 35 years I can categorically state that "Petroleum distillates and polymer silicones are not 'bad', this is usually ‘negative’ marketing and has a very little basis of truth”

[Sandstone]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Geeks unite! TOGWT I am also a Chem E but of a 22yr vintage in the chemicals, plastics and fibers industries. Where did you go to school?

[TOGWT]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Imperial College London, UK

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

So my question is this...I had always heard that products with Petroleum Distillates worked like a chemical type cleaner as it polished/sealed and/or waxed. (Cleaned the surface of the paint that washing and clay bar did not quite get clean). If not then why have 'PD' in the product in the first place.

On a 2nd note when can the #7 Showcar Glaze be applied to a vehicle with Gold Class Liquid Wax already on the vehicle. A week, month, longer, etc.???

What you've heard about petroleum distillates is only part of the story. As previously mentioned, petroleum distillates are not all created equal. Yes, they can be used as chemical cleaners, but as Sandstone mentions below, sometimes it really is nothing more than a light carrier vehicle for the primary ingredients.

For the most part you cannot use a petroleum based product like a wax without having some sort of petroleum based distillate as a carrier to dissolve the product so you can use it. The PD evaporates or flashes off leaving the desired product behind. Some car waxes are petroleum based distillates since they are distilled from oil. Some examples of PDs are candle wax, Vaseline, diesel fuel, gasoline and paint thinner...a very broad range of products some safe for your baby (the pooping and racing kinds)... some not.

Nicely put.

As a Chemical Engineer who has been in the Petrochemical and Polymer industries for more than 35 years I can categorically state that "Petroleum distillates and polymer silicones are not 'bad', this is usually ‘negative’ marketing and has a very little basis of truth”

Thanks for that, but it should be pointed out that even your earlier post in this very thread seemed to carry a negative connotation regarding these two families of ingredients.

[TOGWT]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

[Thanks for that, but it should be pointed out that even your earlier post in this very thread seemed to carry a negative connotation regarding these two families of ingredients.]

My only agenda is the dissemination of accurate, unbiased information. I'm just passing on information from tyre manufacturers (doesn't mean I aggree with it) and I suspect it a way to avoid warranty issues

[Sandstone]

Re: Question about polymers in car care products

Cornell University...Go Big Red!