Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

[Bill Davidson]

assuming we a using a DA polisher:

I understand the least aggressive method is recommended, but how do you determine the balance point between time/effort and moving up to a more aggressive product?

Let say you can get the results you want with 4-6 passes of Ultimate Compound (wipe off / inspect). Would you move up to M105 if it only required 1-2 passes?

What factors do you consider when making your choice?

[Shawn T.]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

That would depend on how much time you want to spend or have available. If you wanted to knock out the car in a day while giving a full detail then M105 may be the way to go as it would be quicker.

I have only detailed a few cars for money so far but it mainly comes down to how much time I can/want to spend on the car. If I am taking my time and enjoying the time on my own car then I would go with the lesser aggressive. However, if I am detailing a customer's car and realize that it is 1:00 pm and I have to have the car done by 5 for the customer and I still have most of the exterior to do then I would step it up to M105 and push the pace (obviously still doing a great job while pushing the pace). It's really about you in most cases.

On older cars or cars with thin paint then going least aggressive is probably your only option as damage could be done if you go too aggressive. In some cases you can choose but in others there is a certain protocol that must be followed. This has been my experience with my mom's car. The hood on it has some pretty severe clear coat failure as it is cracking all over te place. I have used Swirlx in some spots but really only use Colorx on the G110V2. I am also going to throw a few coats of M07 on it this summer to keep the paint at least somewhat healthy and try to prolong its life as much as possible. That's what happens when a car goes 7 years without seeing a drop of wax.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

Let say you can get the results you want with 4-6 passes of Ultimate Compound (wipe off / inspect). Would you move up to M105 if it only required 1-2 passes?

If 4-6 passes of UC aren't getting the job done, and all you're really talking about is swirls in the paint (rather severe swirls, but still swirls, nonetheless) then yes, by all means step up to M105. A lot of experienced guys would probably tell you that if they found they needed 4-6 passes with UC on a D/A they'd probably even break out the rotary to get the job done. Of course, that assumes they know the history of the paint on an older car, have a paint thickness gauge to rely on, or it's a relatively new car that has simply been subjected to some really horrid maintenance.

While Meguiar's has preached the concept of "use the least aggressive to get the job done" for many years, that shouldn't be taken to an extreme. We don't suggest that so that you go out and purchase SwirlX, then ScratchX2.0, Ultimate Compound and finally M105 in a quest to determine which one you need. The concept really applies, for the most part, when dealing with very aggressive processes like wet sanding and compounding. For routine swirl removal we're fine with you going straight to UC, but of course we want you to being paying close attention to what you're doing, too! If you have a car with extremely delicate paint then even UC may be overly aggressive and SwirlX may be just fine. We've seen cars with paint so delicate that D151 or M66 on a finishing pad was sufficient to correct the defects, and in fact anything more aggressive actually marred the surface!

So it can be tricky balance some times, trying to decipher what's really going on with the paint. Have a look at Snake Bitten and see what we went through trying to figure out a plan of attack on this Cobra replica! Yeah, that was fun!

[Bill Davidson]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

Snake Bitten

Perfect example on why to do a test section first.

When I get my M105 order I'll do a test section and evaluate the process.

BTW, the DA chart says M205 can be used with a polishing pad followed by a finishing pad. Can a finishing pad be used with M105 by chance? Perhaps this combination would land me somewhere between UC with a polishing pad and M105 with a polishing pad.

[Tuck91]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

Perfect example on why to do a test section first.

When I get my M105 order I'll do a test section and evaluate the process.

BTW, the DA chart says M205 can be used with a polishing pad followed by a finishing pad. Can a finishing pad be used with M105 by chance? Perhaps this combination would land me somewhere between UC with a polishing pad and M105 with a polishing pad.

I would imagine using a finishing pad with M105 would reduce the cut a little bit.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

M105 on a finishing pad.... now that's sort of an odd one. Given the somewhat unique nature of M105's abrasives it could probably work, but just the thought of using such a powerful compound on a soft finishing pad just seems......wrong.

You'll most likely get better results using Ultimate Compound on a polishing pad rather than M105/finishing pad.

[Bill Davidson]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

M105 on a finishing pad.... now that's sort of an odd one. Given the somewhat unique nature of M105's abrasives it could probably work, but just the thought of using such a powerful compound on a soft finishing pad just seems......wrong.

You'll most likely get better results using Ultimate Compound on a polishing pad rather than M105/finishing pad.

I got you, and I understand your logic. I just wanted to make sure their was no hard and fast rule as to why I couldn't be done. eg. M105 being too aggressive to the point that it actually causes damage to a finishing pad ie. separation.

Thanks guys the info helped.

Basically what I got out of this is...
-evaluate the condition/history of the paint before starting
-test from least aggressive products and work your way up as necessary
-experiment with what works
-evaluate your time vs. the level of risk you are willing to take.

It all makes sense.

-Something that you are not afraid to damage (lots of clear/paint available) , or you want to make good time on 1-2 passes.
-Something you unsure of, or need to be extremely careful of 3-6 passes or whatever it takes.

[Scoobie]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product


If you are VERY familiar with the products you are using, you just may know that a particular product will not be adequate for the task at hand, thus move up to a more aggressive product. That is, if you are VERY familiar with the products you are using, as in having used said products over and over and over.

If you're not sure if a particular product will be sufficient, then chances are, you haven't used it over and over and over.

[ClearlyCoated]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

M105 on a finishing pad.... now that's sort of an odd one. Given the somewhat unique nature of M105's abrasives it could probably work, but just the thought of using such a powerful compound on a soft finishing pad just seems......wrong.

You'll most likely get better results using Ultimate Compound on a polishing pad rather than M105/finishing pad.

That grabbed my attention too. I associate finishing pads with more benign products like light polishes, glazes, and waxes. I think of polishing pads as more for light/medium cleaner polishes and compounds.

And cutting pads are still reserved for exfoliating facial scrubs and finely ground gravel!

[cnfowler]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

To add to what Mr. Stoops stated, "use the least aggressive to get the job done" is also used to 'guide' people new to detailing. For example, if you had some minor defects, ie. swirl marks, cobwebbing, micro marring, etc., Meguiar's doesn't recommend you reach for the "rocks in a jar" rubbing compound and apply it with steel wool. You would want to try the least aggressive product and method you could. If that doesn't work, then step up to the next aggressive product, then the next, and so on.

Too often, when someone wants to clean something, whether it is a car's finish or some other item, they'll go for the most aggressive thing they can find. Sure you have that bottle of acid in the garage. And, yes, it would clean your grill real fast. But that bottle of Simple Green may do the same thing and be a whole lot more gentle in the process. See what I mean?

Colin

[Mary S]

Re: Deciding when to move up to a more aggressive product

Ultimately, the reason for using the least aggressive method to get the job done is simply, you don't want to remove 0.10 mil of clear coat if the deepest of the defects that you are trying to remove is 0.09 mil. The more aggressiveness, i.e. the more cut in your process, the faster it can remove the paint.

But if you have accomplished the task of getting exactly what you need in terms of paint removal, and have the finish polished up to the end state of reflectiveness that you are seeking, it really doesn't matter what combination of products, pads, pressure, application method/tools you used to get there. Mainly, you don't want to overshoot your mark, because then you would have needlessly removed more paint than was required for the job.

And the only way you will know that is by starting with a test spot and trying the least aggressive method available to you. If you haven't reached your destination that way, step up the aggressiveness. Once you see what it takes to get to your goal in you test spot, you can jump right up to the required combination of factors that contribute to the aggressiveness when you do the rest of the car.

There are different combinations of compounds, pads, pressure, application method/tools, and number of passes that will cause the right aggressiveness to get you to your desired goal, but one of your goals is not only to get there but also within a reasonable amount of time and effort. If it took you 60 section passes with the DA in your test spot but you got to your goal, well that would take you days to finish the whole car. So what you want to do is include the fact that you want to get the job done in a reasonable amount of time, so if it takes you too many passes and too much time, go ahead and increase the aggressiveness (speed of paint removal) by going up on the DA settings, going up on the compound, or going up on the pressure, and maybe then do another test section to decide on your final system for doing the rest of the car.