Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

[Shogun88888888]

Today I was using a DA with the microfiber pads.
D300 wasn't cutting it so I switched to M101.

Let me say the combo worked incredibly well. Took out scratches easily equal to 1500 grit and polished down to LSP ready. Not perfect but close. Could have finished with 205 for some super gloss and get some of those minute little scuffs but close enough or today. My own car by the way.

Point I'm getting to. I was outside and it was breezy. I noticed the D300 easily worked for a good 4-5 minutes and stayed very smooth. When switching to the M101 I got dusting on the second pass. Understandable due to it being windy and its just the nature of the product.

Still continued to work it while getting some dust and got good results.
But I wondered should I have stopped or kept going?

After a few more panels I thought since its windy the product is more prone to drying quicker. Makes sense.
So what evaporates quicker? Hot or cold liquids? Cold of course so I put the M101 in a little ice bucket to cool it down. Took a 10 minutes break, shook the bottle, primed the pad and added product. Again I was getting 5 minute working time t least with no dusting but this time with the M101!!! It finished better too.

Wow, how cool. Pun intended.

god idea? Don't know but it seemed to work.

Maybe this will help some one.

Final thoughts leading back to the title of this post.

What EXACTLY is dusting?
Is it ok to buff while its happening?
Was my solution a good one or the act of a moron that has no clue to what he's doing?
Any other things about dusting you could possibly add?



So that was my day but the paint sure is perty!

Finished of with the ultimate liquid on a finishing pad. Wow is that thin stuff. Had to keep checking if I was running dry but nope the pad was still moist and it was evident the wax was spreading but only by looking very very close. One X easily lasted 2-3 panels and i used about 4oz of product for the whole car.

Only bummer of the day is the threads of the S3BP backing plate stripped out and after tossing the microfiber pads in the washer the Velcro backing came off the foam. But otherwise an entertaining day.

[davey g-force]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Sounds like a pretty cool (pardon the pun) idea to me! Hey, whatever works!

[Detailing by M]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

That BP will do that. I switched to a 3/8 th adapter and use the Rotary BP works great and very durable.
Don't put your MFPs in the washer, wash by hand and rinse throughly.

Dusting is just the nature of a compound some dust more some dust less but they all dust.
I use as little product as possible because you just don't need a lot of product.
Working time for me and 105 has never been a problem to me.
You work the compound and it will dust as it dries out and you don't stop working.

Here's a Merc, 105, MFP on a flex for full correction.
This pic is right after I'm done working the section, no wiping. This is what your work are should look like after using a compound or even a polish.

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

That BP will do that. I switched to a 3/8 th adapter and use the Rotary BP works great and very durable.


Same plate with just a different adaptor?


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Don't put your MFPs in the washer, wash by hand and rinse throughly.


Guess I learned the hard way. Directions even say machine washable.
Wonder if meguiars has any guarantee or warranty?


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Dusting is just the nature of a compound some dust more some dust less but they all dust.
I use as little product as possible because you just don't need a lot of product.
Working time for me and 105 has never been a problem to me.
You work the compound and it will dust as it dries out and you don't stop working.


Good to know. Guess I was on the right track.
Being new to this DA thing there's. a number of little things they just don't mention in the tutorials.
Never seen any dust in those "production videos"


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Here's a Merc, 105, MFP on a flex for full correction.
This pic is right after I'm done working the section, no wiping. This is what your work are should look like after using a compound or even a polish.


Looks pretty much how I ended up but kept wondering the whole time if I was doing it right.

Kept wondering about the MF pads too, being pretty dry afterwards but I cleaned after each section with compressed air, added 3 drops of compound and did it again. I did reprime every once in a while then blew the excess off with air.

Have never had a chance to watch anyone that actually knew what they were doing. I do like the DA machine however.
Used a makita rotary a few times previously years ago but that's so different. Still have it but don't use it really.

Im using a griots DA now. You find a big difference using the flex with compounds like 105 in getting better or quicker cut when there's deep defects?

I got to hand it to you guys that do this for a living. Tough work.
Dont think I could do it, especially you mobile guys. But it's enjoyable for a couple hours at a time.
Thanks for the advise for te noobie

1

[Detailing by M]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Adaptor
http://www.autogeek.net/daadapter58x11.html

Backing Plate
http://www.autogeek.net/ro3inbapl.html

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Adaptor
http://www.autogeek.net/daadapter58x11.html

Backing Plate
http://www.autogeek.net/ro3inbapl.html

Does that backing plate work with the Meguiars DMC3 DA Microfiber Cutting Discs? Seems a bit larger and the hook/loop compatible too? Probably perfect for a 4 inch foam...

[Detailing by M]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Yes it's a 3" BP for all 3" pads

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Sweet!!! Bummer though, as i just placed an order from them yesterday.

Guess I need to buy something else I don't need to make up for the shipping. Lol

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Last question though. Are there any super techs that can explain dusting and exactly what is happening. Understanding the science of what's happening is always helpful.

Even though all is working out would like to prevent it as taping is a pain and its seems to get into the nooks. Not to hard to clean by rinsing or compressed air but if I can get no dust that would be great.

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

By the way. Thanks please wash me detailing. You're a walking encyclopedia of detailing knowledge and its appreciated.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

What EXACTLY is dusting?
Is it ok to buff while its happening?
Was my solution a good one or the act of a moron that has no clue to what he's doing?
Any other things about dusting you could possibly add?

Let's see if we can address the above questions in order:

Dusting happens when the lubricants in the compound (or other product) dry out, evaporate, are absorbed into the paint or some combination of these. This leaves the residual components behind, including the abrasives, which create the dust you see. Some compounds are designed to work with certain types of tools (rotary vs DA, for example) or maybe on certain types of paint (freshly sprayed vs factory cured) so the lubricating component of the products will vary. D300 was designed specifically for use on our microfiber pads with a DA buffer. But it was also really designed for use in volume reconditioning facilities where factory cured paint is the norm, where longer buffing cycles are required (primarily due to the prominence of DA buffing) and other considerations. M101 was designed specifically for use on European aftermarket paint, rotary buffers, and foam cutting pads. But it was also designed with the more typical European short buffing cycle, spot repair style of rotary buffing. All of this meant that, for it's specific design application, it doesn't need the same level of lubrication as some other compounds. That's all fine and well until you start using it outside those design parameters, like many here in the US do when they put it on a microfiber pad with a DA. Yep, it will then dust like crazy! But it will still cut like crazy, too, and leave a surprisingly nice finish at the same time.

There really isn't a problem, per se, if you continue to buff while producing dust, as long as you're not dry buffing - ie, you're not buffing when the product has totally and completely dried out and you've got nothing "wet" left to work with. Really the biggest problem with dusting is that it's a pain to deal with, makes a mess, and takes additional time to clean up. If you can live with that as a trade off for the fast cutting and quality finish that M101 provides on microfiber/DA then maybe it's not such a big deal. Dust doesn't bother some people, and it drives others crazy.

Your solution was a good one because it worked for you. Certainly NOT the act of a moron, but rather the act of someone thinking about what's happening and looking for a solution to the problem. We all experiment to some degree when detailing because, let's face it, nothing is written in stone in this game. Everything is really a guide or starting point, and from that point we all need to adjust a bit here and there depending on the paint we're working on at the moment. The paint is always the big variable in any detailing project so you always have to tweak your process for the paint. The good news is that with good technique and quality products, you can get away with a fairly set process 80-85% of the time. The rest of the time you either have to adjust your process by changing to a different pad or, as in your case, a different liquid. As you've discovered here that change can impact other aspects of the buffing process. Now, if you had cooled the product and it made no difference at all in your work flow, what then? Simple - it would have been an experiment that did not yield a positive result, or a positive gain. Move along, nothing to see here. That's part of experimentation when polishing paint - not all experiments pay off, but when they do they often do so in spades. So good for you for approaching a challenge with a very unique solution!

OK, back to dusting issues: A classic example of two similar products that behave quite differently with regard to dusting are M80 Speed Glaze and M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. Both are mild duty cleaner polishes (M83 is the more aggressive of the two) with diminishing abrasives and polishing oils. M80 has more oils in it and therefore more lubrication. Both are (or at least were) very popular choices for DA polishing with foam pads. Quite often if M80 wasn't up to the task with a DA at speed 5 with a polishing pad, the user would just step up to M83 and keep everything else the same (tool, tool speed, pad, pressure, arm speed, etc). But M83 would dust more so it required slightly different techniques. Among those was a more frequent cleaning of the pad to remove dried, excess product from the edges and using slightly less product to prevent excess build up. But for people who were really used to M80 and had used it for many years before trying M83, sometimes a rude awakening was in store. Anyone who was a bit lax at cleaning their pads when using M80 would find a lot of dust with M83, and that would often lead them to thinking they were starting to dry buff, which they knew was a no-no. So they'd stop and then fight to remove the product residue because they actually buffed for too short a time and didn't break it down fully. Now, when they added more product (and failed to clean the pad) they would get caught up in a never ending spiral of gummy product, tons of dust, and seemingly no way out. An adjustment to their process was all that was needed to overcome this; clean the pad frequently, use a bit less product, and accept that a little dust was OK and just buff through it, so to speak. Suddenly M83 went from being a pain to use to being the answer to their extra cutting needs. So if such similar products can present very different user experiences, image what vastly different compounds can present. Well, OK, you don't have to image in as you just lived it with D300 and M101. But next time you're in this situation, try using a supplemental wetting agent. A what now?????? OK, so "supplemental wetting agent" is just a fancy term for "water". That's right - by simply putting some plain water into a spray bottle and giving just a trigger pull spritz onto the area you're buffing as the compound begins to dust, you can extend the buffing cycle and potentially even increase the cut. But go easy here; don't let this become a crutch where you're constantly spraying water when buffing. That's going to create an even bigger mess, it's potentially going to saturate your pad, and overdoing it will start to reduce your cut rather than increase it. The old adage "if some is good, more is better" does NOT apply here. We're talking about a very small amount of water to help wet the surface and extend the buffing cycle. It will NOT eliminate ALL the dust. It's not magic, but it can help. Notice we said "can", not "will".

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

WOW!!! Certainly more than I expected and what great info.
Resident super tech Michael Stoops once again as always providing great info. Wish I had it a couple days ago. Almost makes me want to go out and and buff the car again. Almost...


I was just reading your post about hard to correct paint here.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?54103-Dealing-with-crazy-hard-paint-or-Don-t-believe-everything-you-read-on-the-Interwebs

car I was working on was close in how stubborn is was to correct. Not as bad but close.
Using the microfiber with DA and M101 and was running the pad with pressure at about 2 spins a minute probably 25 pounds of force. very time consuming as it took about 4 good section passes at that pressure then a few lighter passes to finish up. I might try your technique from that article on the front bumper as it still has some correction needed. 2012 impala by the way.

[Shogun88888888]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

By the way this makes me think that if anyone wants to keep their compound cold to slow down dusting.

This might be the perfect way to explan to the wife why it is a good idea to keep that cooler full of beer next to you.

Just sayin

[davey g-force]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

Awesome post Mike

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Compound Dusting. The Details. What is it and why?

WOW!!! Certainly more than I expected and what great info.
Resident super tech Michael Stoops once again as always providing great info. Wish I had it a couple days ago. Almost makes me want to go out and and buff the car again. Almost...


I was just reading your post about hard to correct paint here.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?54103-Dealing-with-crazy-hard-paint-or-Don-t-believe-everything-you-read-on-the-Interwebs

car I was working on was close in how stubborn is was to correct. Not as bad but close.
Using the microfiber with DA and M101 and was running the pad with pressure at about 2 spins a minute probably 25 pounds of force. very time consuming as it took about 4 good section passes at that pressure then a few lighter passes to finish up. I might try your technique from that article on the front bumper as it still has some correction needed. 2012 impala by the way.

Are you comfortable with a rotary buffer? If not, the technique used in that post is very aggressive (foam cutting pad with aggressive compound, fairly high speed, and a bit of pressure) and could be problematic on a urethane bumper cover if you're not comfortable with the process. The big culprit here is heat, and the fact that the urethane substrate doesn't dissipate it very well. This leads to potential hot spots, and they will heat up very fast. This makes it especially easy to burn through the paint all of a sudden, even when you think you're perfectly safe.