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**scrub** · Dec 8, 2004, 03:45 PM

I think #81 would be a good filler. I don't think you'll get the 2-3 months your looking for though.

I've noticed most of the polishes I use have some sort of filler. I use 50/50 alcohol and water to remove fillers to check work when I'm polishing a car.

**travisdecpn** · Dec 8, 2004, 04:30 PM

That's a lot of work for $60. You may want to try claying during the wash, that will easily take about 30-45 mins off of that time. I don't know about filling the swirls though. You may just try using #83, then #80, followed by NXT (this is a popular combo). For cars that are in decent condition you can skip #83 and just use #80.

**Mike Phillips** · Dec 8, 2004, 04:39 PM

Re: Products with Fillers? Concealing Swirls?

Originally posted by cheapthrills
If someone wants me to do a detail for them and I charge say 40-60 bucks for 3-4 hours work. I don't have time to do any real swirl removal, Unless the swirls are minor. It takes me hours to remove swirls with my PC, and I mean almost an entire day.

Just an idea, but for $40.00 to $60.00, how only using a product like the #66 Quick Detailer

Explain that this will remove oxidation, road grime, light swirls, etc. while restoring a high gloss shine and adding protection. If they want higher quality results, then explain that this will take longer, require more steps and with dedicated swirl removers and it will cost more. Then let them decide.

What all is included for the price you're charging? Meguiar's compounds, paint cleaners, cleaner polishes and pure polishes are all about removing defects, not filling them in. Doing it right means doing your best to remove the defects, then restore depth, gloss and shine.

Here's a related thread with some of my comments on fillers.

#9 vs. #82

Mike

**cheapthrills** · Dec 8, 2004, 05:51 PM

Mike , for 40-60 bucks 3-4 Hours work:

I would vacuum thoroughly and dress interior and wash interior windows, nothing special here! just getting it as clean as I can without carpet cleaning etc. If it's really bad, I would spent a little more time and ask more toward 60 bucks. Especially if they have leather, Because I need a leather cleaner and conditioner and this would take more time to do.

I would then NXT wash and inspect the cars finish, Does this car need clay?(Clay Magic Blue Bar) I find most cars I feel do! Does this car need swirls removed? (DACP/#80/#9) Most cars I find do to some degree! I always get the beaters. Should I use a sealant or wax? or both? (NXT, AIO, PwC, EXP, SG, 16, S100) These are questions I ask myself when inspecting the cars finish. I have also listed some products that I have for the tasks.

I would basically do this below to keep the post short.

Interior vacuum, dressing and windows etc.

Wash
Clay
Wash
This all depends (remove swirls if they are very light and require one step 40-60) charge more if mutiple steps and time are required 80-120)
sealant
wax

Mike one compound/polishing step could take care of the swirls. But If it doesn't, I was looking for a good alternative to conceal them that will last. If they settle on a 40 dollar job, I want to make the car look it's best, but don't want to compound/polish forever.

I also agree that, I must first explain to the person or customer what I could do and what it would take, and how much time it would take me. It would take me on a bad car about 8-9 hours or more to do everything I listed above including swirl removal. and I would have to charge about double, (80-120 dollars) being it's almost double the time. Do you guy's think this is fair pricing or am I going about this the wrong way.

Most people I speak to (friends and family) say they would not spend 100 dollars to get there cars detailed. I try to explain swirls and scratches etc and what it takes to remove them, they say still I would not spend 100 dollars to detail my car. I believe most people would spend 40-60, it's less expensive and there car will be smooth clean and shiny.(not nessarily swirl free) Finding customers that know and understand and really want the best results and will pay for them are hard to find! at least for me. I plan on doing some close friends and family cars for free and hope on getting some customers by word of mouth and advertising.

I really enjoy detailing and making cars shine, especially older ones, because your before and after seems more fulfilling. But I would think the above prices I listed are very fair. Maybe you guys could give me some Tips. Thanks

**scrub** · Dec 8, 2004, 06:12 PM

Just my .02... I've learned this the hard way too. If your clients (family and friends) think that $100 is too much then I think you should reduce the amount of services offered for your $40-60. You can still clean up their car but skip the polish. Like you said most peeps don't care for a 5 step process they are bottom line concerned. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying to lower your quaility either. Just offer service geared toward what they are willing to pay. If the client is a regular then throw in a clay or polish.

Now how much is your time worth? Do these folks approach you about details? I'd hate someone (even family) to approach me expecting lowball detail prices. I really don't detail family members cars yet they haven't asked.

I had a difficult time with this. I know what I can and can't do to a vehicle with my PC. Is it wrong to negotiate a price for a wax only detail when I know I could just as easy polish their car for the same price (free or no charge) and take the loss rather than trying an upsell? I felt I should perform every service I knew how to do for $60. We're talking 8 hour detail like you said. Then I realized most people just want a wash and wax with vac, not all the polishing steps I was doing. So I made a flyer with my exact services and prices to educate my clients about what I offer. My details are down to 4 hours and I hit all areas minus clay, polish, and engine. I'm happy with the image this portrays for my business.

To summarize (sorry about the filibuster)... If they want to pay $40-60 thats alright you should have a list of services offered at that price point. Be very clear and upfront. If they want swirls removed then they can step up to your "Premium Exterior Detail Package" starting at $99.95... Good luck I hope this is what your looking for?

**cheapthrills** · Dec 8, 2004, 06:47 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone

Scrub,
I am not really a pushy type to say here is what I offer and hand someone over a flyer, I would feel like a moron. But I think you are right, when it's down in writing thats it, it is what it is. And maybe you are right, I offer to much for 40- 60 bucks.

Maybe it's because I have no business or detail shop, I just do this on the side as a hobby, After detailing a few cars and discovering what I could accomplish, I feel that I could share this with others and make a little money on the side.

Mike,
I have a few questions on the #66 Quick detailer. Is this a fast and effective one-step? how abrasive is it? how long could I expect it to last. I am assuming this could only be followed with a carnuaba wax and not a sealant? is this a product that will remove as well as conceal swirls? Is #66 available in quart sizes? Sorry for all the questions. I make things so difficult sometimes.

**scrub** · Dec 8, 2004, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by cheapthrills

Scrub,
I am not really a pushy type to say here is what I offer and hand someone over a flyer, I would feel like a moron. But I think you are right, when it's down in writing thats it, it is what it is. And maybe you are right, I offer to much for 40- 60 bucks.

If you don't stand up for your self and your business who will? I felt that I was doing people a favor by sweating in the summer heat for 8 hours. I also felt I should just do it for free because I can. Plus I was embarassed to ask for a fair price. Thats when some of my close friends and family (wife) said if people think you charge to much then they won't have you detail their car and that's OK, but I shouldn't just give away every detail. I have housework I could be doing. That turned around when I learned to ask for more money. There is nothing wrong with asking for a fair price. I don't want to be known as the least expensive detailer. I want to be known as a great detailer. (I've got a ways to go for that)

When the services are in writing, it also boosts your company's image. If I know you provide services A-D for X amount of money and you throw in E and F for no charge I can see what you gave me for free. That's a deal.

Originally posted by cheapthrills

Maybe it's because I have no business or detail shop, I just do this on the side as a hobby, After detailing a few cars and discovering what I could accomplish, I feel that I could share this with others and make a little money on the side.

I see what your saying that's the tough thing. I'm in the same boat. I guess we need to set goals. Then we need to figure out how to reach our goals. You do have a business though. You offer a service for a fee. How much do you want your business to grow. This is just a side gig for me too so I want to be reasonable about my workload. So does my wife!!

I have used #66 but it was on silver so I can't comment on the swirl removal properties. It did a pretty good job overall. We topped it with NXT.

You mentioned a sealant then wax what do you use??

Please don't be offended with anything I posted. I can really relate to where your coming from on this topic.

**cheapthrills** · Dec 8, 2004, 07:38 PM

Scrub, I hear ya, and no I' m not offended at all by your posts. I actually find them pretty informative and helpful. I see that you have gone through what I may in the future. Thanks for the help and tips.

I like to use AIO/SGx3 on my car it is white. I also like applying S100 monthly. Going for SGx4 and maybe 16 before winter.

On friends and family cars, I have used NXTx2 and the results were great! They were very happy and my first few impressions of NXT have stuck! I am very happy with the results and the ease of use.

Sealants that I have right now: but I will be ordering a few more.

-SG - my car only so far
-UPP - have not tried yet
-NXT- my first choice when detailing a car.(recommed this to anyonw that I know that waxes there car)
-EXP - seemed very nice but covered it with 16 so I didn't have time to really look at it, and let it sink in.

Waxes that I have: plan on going to Brazil and taking some trees home to make my own someday.

-S100 - my favorite wax
-16 - used it once still testing it, really like the look
-#26 - used this a dozen or more times and really like it.

I have a few others but IMO are not worth mentioning. Mostly stuff found locally.

**cheapthrills** · Dec 9, 2004, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by scrub Is it wrong to negotiate a price for a wax only detail when I know I could just as easy polish their car for the same price (free or no charge) and take the loss rather than trying an upsell? I felt I should perform every service I knew how to do for $60. We're talking 8 hour detail like you said.

Scrub that's the the thing, I can't remove swirls as easy as I can wax a car. It Honestly takes me hours to remove them! I could NXT or wax a car in about 20- 30 minutes, I would only be on my first or second panel for swirl removal at 20-30 minutes.

Is it just me? or does it take you guys just as long?

**Mike Phillips** · Dec 9, 2004, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by cheapthrills
Scrub that's the the thing, I can't remove swirls as easy as I can wax a car. It Honestly takes me hours to remove them! I could NXT or wax a car in about 20- 30 minutes, I would only be on my first or second panel for swirl removal at 20-30 minutes.

Is it just me? or does it take you guys just as long?

It's not just you. Removing swirls can take a long time to do a good job if all you're using is the dual action polisher. Other factors will affect how long it takes you also, things like how deep the swirls are and how hard the paint is.

The reason for this is because the dual action polisher is gentle to the finish. People like it for this reason. It's easy to control, that's another reason people like it.

For the same reasons people like it,

* Safe
* Gentle to the finish
* Easy to control
* Uses an oscillating action instead of a direct drive rotating action like the rotary buffer

It doesn't remove paint very fast. If you we're to look at a cross-section of a finish with cobweb-effect, or buffer swirls, also called holograms in an exploded view, it would look something like this,

In order to remove scratches, whether it's swirls like above, or a random, isolated, deeper scratch like below,

In order to effectively remove them, you need to remove all of the paint surrounding them until the surface is level with the lowest depths of the deepest defects.

To remove swirls and scratches, you must remove paint.

Modern catalyzed clear coats are much, much harder than traditional lacquers and enamels. This makes them more durable and less prone to oxidation. This also mean it is harder for the average person to remove a defects such as swirls.

Now here's the tricky part, most people, when they learn that the clear coat finish on their car is hard, not soft, they think and expect it to be less susceptible to swirls and scratches. It probably is to some degree when compared to a traditional lacquer or enamel finish, but in the real world, clear coats scratch very easily. Years ago, Meguiar's coined coined the term "Scratch Sensitive" to describe this characteristic of clear coat finishes.

On a side note, many people are under the impression clear coats are soft because they scratch so easy, this is simply a misunderstanding of the paint technology.

Because clear coats are typically harder than traditional paints, for example the paint that came on a 1952 Chevrolet Belair, or a 1967 Mustang, or a 1979 Dodge Truck, in order to completely remove defects like swirls and scratches, and to do it quickly, you must resort to a rotary buffer.

But that's not all. In the old days, any technician could use a rotary buffer with a wool pad and some cutting compound and quickly remove the swirls and scratches, then follow with a wool finishing pad and a finer polish or glaze and the results would look pretty good.

When the OEM, (OEM means, Original Equipment Manufacture, which in this case the equipment is a car or truck), under pressure from the EPA and other government regulatory agencies began to switch over to new paint technologies that emitted less V.O.C.'s into the air, (V.O.C.'s means Volatile Organic Compounds, which typically means some type of nasty solvent), the effect was to trickle down to the refinishing side of the business, (Body Shops), as well as to the polishing side of the business, (Polish Manufactures, like Meguiar's), and force these industries to change also.

Technicians in body shops had to learn how to spray two-stage paint systems, called basecoat/clear coat systems so they could match the factory finishes being used on new cars.

On the polishing side of the business, polish manufactures had to create new formula's that could be used successfully on these new clear coat finishes. In a nutshell, this meant finding ways to remove defects by becoming less aggressive, not the old-fashioned, traditional way which was to use products that were real aggressive and this relates how cutting compounds are made and even the step and the products used before the compounding step, the wet-sanding step.

This is where Meguiar's shines! You see, while most of the industry were focused on making products that cut fast, (automotive grade sanding papers, coarse, aggressive abrasives and wool pads), every since 1901 Meguiar's has been creating formulas for removing defects in paint that rely on abrasives that breakdown and are cushioned in a rich, lubricating film. In 1965 Meguiar's introduced the Wooless Wonder,

Which by the way worked and still works perfectly with diminishing abrasives embodied in a rich lubricating base and interestingly enough, don't work well at all with traditional compounds where the abrasives don't break down and rely on solvents for carrying agents. (The grit loads up in the foam and scratches and scours the paint). And in the 1980's introduced a paper for wet sanding that uses what Meguiar's calls Unigrit construction. What makes these papers unique and superior for wet-sanding is the uniform particle size of the abrasives AND the uniform placement of these abrasives over the entire sheet of paper. The end result being what Meguiar's refers to as a "Finishing", paper not a sanding paper that cuts faster and leaves a more uniform sanding mark pattern. The end result of this paper are sanding marks that buff out faster while leaving more paint on the car.

The system of finishing papers, diminishing abrasives and foam pad technology proved to be superior at creating swirl-free, high gloss finishes to which most of the industry has attempted to copy.

But I digress...

Your not the only one it takes a long time to remove swirls out of modern clear coat finishes. It's the nature of the beast.

That's why I and others have suggested that for the money your customers are willing to pay, you need to spend a little time educating them on their cars finish and the polishing process and perhaps match their expectations for a clean, shiny car but create these results using either a one-step approach, or a two-step approach, but don't try to remove all the swirls unless you charge more for your time and efforts.

Hope this helps...

Mike

**cheapthrills** · Dec 9, 2004, 05:29 PM

Mike, I feel better knowing that I'm not alone.

I know a few cars that I have detailed probably had hard paint, or maybe it was not so hard being the PC is not that aggressive. It's very difficult for me to tell. I could do a panel with the PC and have to go over it with a few applications, this would give me the impressions that the paint is hard. Someone could then take a rotary and do the same panel, and remove the swirls with one application, and say the paint is not very hard at all. From my experiences most paints would seem pretty hard using the PC.

This probably takes years and years to get a feel for, to understand where the paint might be as far as hardness. Is there anyway to tell? Or does it take many years of experience and having to actually take the rotary to the finish to tell?

I could often tell after two applications with PC/DACP/Polishing pad if the swirls are going to give me a hassle. If I could see a noticeable difference, I know that removal will go pretty smoothly. If I see very little to no improvement, I know it's a job better suited for the rotary. This is what troubles me, I have no rotary, Not only that but I have no experience with one at all. I am currently looking into a foam pad for PC that is a little bit more aggressive then the Meguiar's polishing but not nearly as aggressive as the burgundy cutting. This may help me a bit if it works out.

Mike Thanks for the info

I also had posted a few questions here about #66.

**RamAirV1** · Dec 9, 2004, 06:53 PM

Is it really necessary to rewash the car after claying it? IMHO, no. In Mike's excellent detailing clinics, it appears to me that they are not rewashing the cars after claying. After all, any Meguiars paint cleaner is going to remove any clay residue left over. And when properly clayed, there doesn't appear to be any residue left in the first place.

I am happy to see I'm not the only one that takes the better part of a day (and night) to remove swirls! If there are a lot of swirls all over my car (which is rare now) I would break it down into sections and do one section one weekend then another section the next. Of course that is not practical if you are detailing someone else's car.

If I were to start a detailing business and do others' cars, I would definitely learn how to use a rotary. For me #83 takes way too long with a PC to do an entire car!

Why do clear coats scratch so easily when the paint is so hard? It seems like a paradox, but it's definitely true!

RamAirV1

**cheapthrills** · Dec 9, 2004, 08:20 PM

RamAirV1, I don't know why but I like washing after claying. I would hate to think that microscopic pieces on clay are getting on my pad, I think I'm mostly paranoid. I wonder what others opinions might be.

I could see where your coming from with removing swirls, and doing it little by little. I did my bro-in-law's Jetta a little hear and a little there, I used lunch breaks, when I got home early, all crammed in the garage at night etc. Here is a link to the post, I have pictures through out the post.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...&threadid=3025

I plan on picking up a rotary and learning in the spring/summer. I hope that Rod Craft will be doing a few seminars this spring/summer. I hear he did one a few months ago in PA. I would have gone if I had known. I feel I wound be much better off with some professional instruction and hands on right from the start.

**Tim Lingor** · Dec 9, 2004, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by cheapthrills
Mike,
I have a few questions on the #66 Quick detailer. Is this a fast and effective one-step? how abrasive is it? how long could I expect it to last. I am assuming this could only be followed with a carnuaba wax and not a sealant? is this a product that will remove as well as conceal swirls? Is #66 available in quart sizes? Sorry for all the questions. I make things so difficult sometimes.

I am sure Mike will chime in. But if I may....

Meguiar's #66 Quick Detailer is a fairly aggressive one-step Cleaner/Wax. On Meguiar's scale of aggressiveness, it is a 4, placing it between #83 and #82 in terms of aggressiveness. I usually like to top #66 with Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant. There is no problem topping the #66 as Meguiar's products are designed to work together as a system. The product does a great job of removing swirls as long as it is worked properly.

It is IMHO, that no product really hides swirls. I believe it would be better to explain to your customers that swirl removal takes time. If they do not want to make that investment, that is their decision.

Finally, #66 is only available in the gallon size.

I hope this helps!

Tim

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Products with Fillers? Concealing Swirls?

Products with Fillers? Concealing Swirls?

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