Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

[gmck]

I'd like to know the differences between Ultimate Compound and M105. I've just ordered a sampler set of M105/M205 after reading up on various threads both here and on other forums. I’ve read one particular thread where a guy had problems with M105 and just today I think I ran into a similar problem with Ultimate – more on it later.

I’ve just got back into car detailing after a gap of about 25 years, so the biggest changes I’ve noticed are clay, DA machines, the new clear coats, the new polishes and of course the internet with all these wonderful forums. I’m still not sure about DA’s as compared to rotaries, but eventually after trying manually (by hand) I went with a DA polisher. I tried a rotary again, but found it difficult to handle, probably due to age constraints, so the DA appealed as something that wasn’t available previously.

I started with Meguiars consumer products, Ultimate Compound, Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner, Deep Crystal Polish and Deep Crystal Carnauba Wax. The results by hand were ok, but nothing stunning. The vehicle is a navy ’99 BMW. It has only been washed regularly since I purchased it, so it really had 11 years of neglect, so it was obvious after the manual attempt that I needed some more power.

As soon as I received the DA (DAS 6) I started out with Ultimate Compound with an orange pad. The DA came with Lake Country pads, Orange, White, Black and Blue and I added a Yellow. The result wasn’t very good (powdered up immediately) so I then switched to the Menzerna sampler products that came with the DA. The Menzerna products in order of aggressiveness in the sampler kit were P0203S, P0106FF, P085RD and APO60. Things started to happen very nicely with this combination.

At this stage I wasn’t all that interested in paint correction, scratches etc, I just wanted to get rid of 11 years of neglect, so I spent a considerable amount of time working a particular panel – the boot lid (you guys call it the trunk) until I felt confident with the DA and the various polishes and pads. Once I felt I had the proper technique and learnt the affects of each polish and pad I completed the vehicle. However I’m still disappointed with the result when I wheel it out in the sun. In the garage lighting, the finish looks terrific, but appears lifeless in the sun. Good, no swirls or marring, but lifeless, for lack of a better word. Park it next to a late model BMW and you wouldn’t really give it a second glance.

After finding a chart on another forum that listed UC as being more aggressive than P0203S, I then decided to start again with UC as the compound while I wait for my order of M105/M205 to arrive. It was after reading the thread I mentioned that I thought I'd experiment with UC. I started with a Yellow pad and UC. It did immediately powder, but I found you could then work through it and all of a sudden UC was really nice to work with and you could work it for a long time as it became translucent. There was a definite improvement with the finish. I then worked through the various Menzerna products with the various pads until I finished off with a black and blue pad and P085RD and then manually waxed with Deep Crystal Carnauba. The car look brilliant in the garage, but as I said before nothing special in the sun.

I’m hoping with the extra cutting power of M105 I’m going to improve the base, but I now find it hard to imagine, if I don’t have any defects now, how I’m going to get more gloss to the finish. After all you do recommend getting the finish correct with the least aggressive compound/polish.

I’ve read here that UC is based on M105 and that they are both non diminishing polishes as compared to the Menzerna range which are diminishing. I’m guessing that M105 is going to behave similarly to UC, but I would like a confirmation. Unfortunately, the Australian distributor doesn’t carry M105/M205, so I’ve got to wait on USPM. In the meantime I’ve gone down to 4” pads to remove a couple of scratches which I’ve successfully done with UC and an orange pad.

Is BMW paint considered as hard paint?

The technique I’ve been using is the Kevin Brown technique for pad priming and downward pressure and of course I’m regularly cleaning my pads.

Regards
Graham

[rapport25]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Hi there, i have just jumped to a d/a myself after 15 yrs of hand application.
I have done a fair bit of reading and I seem to remember people saying BMW has hard paint. I have had fantastic results with ultimate compound by hand.
I suggest doing a serach for the thread "total cut" also purchasing a paint depth gauge.

Hope that helps.

Rappy.

[rapport25]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Just noticed this is your first post. Welcome to MOL

[FinalTouchDetail]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Personally, I think the lack of finish you are looking for is coming from improper DA Technique.

I would suggest working a single, small section and then checking that section repeatedly until you find you are getting the results you are looking for.

I also feel that a paint depth gauge is nothing but overkill with a DA Polisher. It's hard enough for most people just to correct minor swirls let alone worry about burning through their paint.

[akimel]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

You have eliminated all swirls? If that is the case, I can't imagine improving the finish through further compounding. You have polished the car with your various Menzerna polishes, culminating with 85RD. My guess is that you have hit the gloss ceiling on your car, given the previous years of neglect. You have probably at a point now of diminishing returns. You have an 11 year old car that was neglected for many years. It no doubt looks dramatically better than it did. Enjoy the improvement.

Regarding the dusting problem you are experiencing, perhaps you can share with everyone how you are priming the pad and how much product you use after each set of passes. Do you clean your pad after each set of passes? UC is not known for excessive dusting, though M105 certainly is! If you think dusting is a problem with UC, just wait till you try 105.

[gmck]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

You may be right, I might be at the point of diminishing returns. However I still feel it could have more gloss, shine whatever you want to call it. It might be 11 year old paint, but once you get through the oxidation etc you are back to original paint and therefore because there is plenty of it, I would have thought that it is possible to get back the original gloss, which therefore should at least match any new paint job. You are also correct in that it looks dramatically different (with the garage lighting anyway).

I’m priming my pads according to the Kevin Brown Method. The KBM is probably the most elusive technique to be found or not found on the internet. There are some posts here and on other detailing forums but I gather KB never actually posted the document he was referring to a couple of years back. From what I have picked up on it, it is a special method just for DAs. Rather than use the Meg’s X technique to apply compound/polish to the pad, the KBM suggests working the compound into the complete surface area of the pad with your fingers. Done correctly the product is worked sparingly into the pores of the foam. There are a couple of photos of a pad correctly primed here, but unfortunately I can’t remember the thread – but just search for Kevin Brown. The other recommendation is heavier pressure than normal, but not enough to stop the pad from rotating.

Each time I’m about to start a pass I add 4 small drops of compound/polish to the pad, spread the compound around on the section of the panel and start to polish – speed 5-6 and then back out to about 4 and lighten up on the pressure on the finishing passes. Repeat as many times until section is free of defects. If I come across a scratch I normally pass on it for now and I’ll come back to it later with a 3” pad for a more specialized attack on the scratch. After each section I clean the pad against a terry cloth towel. Usually have to change to a fresh pad about half way through the process depending on the condition of the pad.

Using this method I had far more success with the compounds, UC and P0203S and I guess I would have got there even faster with M105 as it has greater cut than those two. Neither of these products produced any marring or swirls on the BMW. Rather than work the whole vehicle, I work a panel at a time, section by section and go through the complete process for the panel. For the BMW a little summary below of the steps.

UC with a yellow pad
P0203S with an orange pad
P0106FF with a white pad
P085RD with a black pad followed by a blue pad (speed reduced to max of 4.5)
Followed up with NXT 2.0 and then Carnauba, both by hand applicator.

Shawn:
I believe I have done as you have suggested and I also agree that a paint gauge is not going to help. From my experience with this BMW I would think it would be just about impossible to burn the BMW’s paint with a DA. The 3” pads are more aggressive, so that is a maybe, but I still think you’d have to be rather careless. Now I have expanded on the technique I used, do you have any further suggestions that may improve the gloss of the finish. Do you think changing to a rotary just for the P085RD or M209 would help?

Rappy:
Thanks for the welcome.

While waiting for the M105/M205 to arrive, I’m going to tackle the boot lid on my wife’s car to get a comparison. It’s even older and in worse condition so it may be interesting to compare.

I’ll try and attach a photo as soon as I figure how to do it for this forum. I will add to the thread after I’ve used the M105/M205, it just may help someone else in the future.

Graham

[Fly Bye]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

no swirls or marring

I’m hoping with the extra cutting power of M105 I’m going to improve the base, but I now find it hard to imagine, if I don’t have any defects

It doesn't sound like you need an aggressive compound.

[gmck]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

I don't seem to have editing privileges, so I need a new post to attach this photo. Not much sun around today, so I don't know how effective this will be in displaying the problem.

[Blown F-150]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Sounds like you need to hit it with 205 to polish the paint to a higher gloss. I doubt that 105 will give you the results you seek if it's already swirl free. I use Lake Country pads on my DA too, and I find that the white pad with 205 works better on harder paints. 205 does not have that much cut, but really seems to add depth to the paint in my opinion.

Good luck and post your results and pics are always nice!

[gmck]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Blown F-150 and Fly Bye:

You are probably both right about the M105 and now not needing to be any more aggressive.

I will just have to wait and see with M109. Saw a photo of a bottle before and see that it has a cut of 4, so that is more aggressive than I thought it would be. I'll take your advice Fly Bye and try it first with a white pad and move on down through black and blue. Seems to be more like the Menzerna P0106FF than the P085RD.

Will post the same pic when I'm done, but I just received the shipping advice and it has only just shipped so it is going to be another week before I get it.

You have to wonder if the M105/M109 combo is so good why the Australian distributor doesn't carry it?

Rappy:

Thanks for the "total cut" thread - that explained away a few of my questions.

[FinalTouchDetail]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Get a picture in the direct sunlight and then we'll be able to get more of a grasp on what you're working with.

Like you said, ANYTHING can be made to look great in the shade.

The Kevin Brown Method is certainly effective, and that is the method I have always used to prime my pads.

How long is it taking you to go over the car with those 4 steps? With a DA that should take on the end of 8 hours of machine work.

Sounds like you need to hit it with 205 to polish the paint to a higher gloss. I doubt that 105 will give you the results you seek if it's already swirl free. I use Lake Country pads on my DA too, and I find that the white pad with 205 works better on harder paints. 205 does not have that much cut, but really seems to add depth to the paint in my opinion.

Good luck and post your results and pics are always nice!

He is already using multiple finishing polishes from Menzerna. I don't think he'll experience much of a difference with M205.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

First off, lets look at M105 vs Ultimate Compound. Yes, they are very closely related - so much so that UC is actually derived from M105. The primary differences are cut (M105 is more aggressive) and workability on a D/A. Ultimate Compound is much more forgiving than M105 when used on a D/A, it offers a longer buffing cycle (ie, stays wet longer) and dusts much less than M105 as well. It seems that you've gotten rid of the defects (swirls, fine scratches, etc) so it would appear that UC was sufficiently aggressive to accomplish that task.

That done, you've got a finish that is greatly improved but not quite up to what you feel it should be. What you may well be seeing is a bit of D/A haze, depending on which pad you used and how the paint reacted to that pad. If your cutting was fairly aggressive all around, meaning both liquid and pad, then it sounds like it's time to move onto the next step. M205 used on a D/A with a finishing pad should easily clear up any haze that might be present and noticeably increase the clarity of the finish and substantially boost the gloss. You should see a very long buffing cycle with M205 and virtually no dust at all. We would suggest reducing the speed of the tool to about half what it was during your defect correcting steps, and reduce the pressure on the pad as well, assuming you were being fairly aggressive during that process. You might be able to get away with working a bit larger area when using M205, but those correcting steps should be confined to an area roughly 60cm x 60cm.

[gmck]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Shawn:

Will get a picture in direct sun light as soon as I can. We haven't had a sunny day for a while, but have one coming Sunday. I haven't totaled up the hours but it has been days, not hours. I've never attempted to do the complete vehicle in any one day, but it would be around 8 hours machine time going through all the steps to complete the vehicle and I've now been through that cycle a couple of times at least and more on particular panels.

Your comments about M205 as compared to P085RD don't sound all that encouraging. You didn't comment on my question re rotary v. DA, should I therefore assume that either can produce an equally glossy finish assuming there are no imperfections in the base.

Mike:

While I wait for the M205, I'll try the P085RD at reduced speed and pressure. I'm already working small sections.

Why is it that your Aussie distributor doesn't carry M105/M205? It's a real pain having to import this stuff.

Apologies for mixing up the names of your products. Be nice if you could edit your mistakes!! Yes I know we have a preview button, but we all make typos.

[akimel]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

While I wait for the M205, I'll try the P085RD at reduced speed and pressure. I'm already working small sections.

Is should be noted that M205 and PO85RD are different polishes employing different abrasive technologies; consequently, they may need to be applied differently. Check with experienced Menzerna users on how to use PO85RD to best effect with a DA polisher.

[gmck]

Re: Differences between Ultimate Compound and M105

Al:

I'm aware of the fact that the two polishes use different abrasive technologies. I've also had the Menzerna guys here take a look at the result and have followed their instructions. As I said to Mike, I'm going to adjust my technique and give it another go.

Thanks