To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

[RaskyR1]

So a somewhat heated debate came about on anther forum (non-detailing) and I wanted to get some MOL feedback. The subject was "is it bad to wax after every wash?"

I feel as long as you are using proper technique and quality products that you can wash and wax as often as you like. Doing so should only require a light polish once a year at most and should keep the car looking like new for years to come.

This is what started the debate...


Also keep this following thought in mind and it holds true no matter how good you are , how good your products and or towels are.

Anytime you touch your car , its going to put imperfections in it. Weither it be swirls , scratches or hazing. Polishing removes clear and sooner or later it will cause trouble.

So washing a car , waxing and polishing is only to make the apperance better. Basically the less you wash , wax or polish , the better it will look longer , except it will be dirtier.

Someone who washes it weekly will normally have a nice and clean car but will also work the paint less. If you wash daily your going to get more swirls much sooner. Same goes if you wash it every other week. It wont be as clean looking but it will also be less scratched over time....

You have to find the balance that works best for you

MOL thoughts?

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

I always find it funny when people talk about polishing so much that the clear is actually gone. You should not have to constantly remove swirls if your wash technique is correct. Plus, polishing doesn't remove that much paint.

Again, something is right if one must compound or use something very aggressive every few months.

If one is instilling swirls while washing, something is not right. There are so many little variables. Yes, it is hard to accomplish.

I admit that I do polish my car once every six months, but I'm picky - and my car is a scratch magnet in the parking lot.

[CWM3]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

I would agree, somewhat, that washing your car all of the time may increase the chances of leaving behind swirls. However, that will not always be the case as the poster has written.

Secondly, I think it crazy that the poster writes that a car will look better, but will be dirtier, if a person cleans it less. How is that possible? If it's dirty it doesn't look good.

Finally, I would question the posters statement that removing clear(coat) will cause problems. While I suppose that "later" it would, problems would occur much, much later. To be sure, NOT washing, polishing and waxing would cause problems before actually doing those things.

[RaskyR1]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

Thanks for the input guys.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

I believe some people just tend to over think things sometimes and end up with horribly convoluted logic. Take this from a forum I frequent:

I know that crystalline waxes like Carnauba are basically abrasives. Forget everything they say about protecting against oxidation, dust, dirt, chemicals, blah blah blah.

When you apply a Carnauba wax to your car's clearcoat, and you rub it with anything - your fingers, sponge, pads, ANYTHING, it is basically REMOVING your clearcoat a little bit at a time. This is how scratches are removed by waxing.

So the basic problem is that clearcoat finishes are basically ruined by carnauba waxes!! Ever wonder where swirl marks come from?

My conclusion is that Carnauba Wax polishes were made for lacquer paint finishes, but will absolutely ruin clearcoat. Does anyone here have some evidence to the contrary? I believe that what is necessary is some kind of fine polish, such as a clear-plastic polish, the kind one would use on headlights to remove scratches.

So where a wax might fill in and hide swirls to some degree, this individual believes ALL carnaubas are abrasive enough to remove clear coat, and removing clear coat is bad. Why then does he think using a polish formulated to remove scratches from plastic would be any safer? Removing a scratch is removing a scratch, no matter the surface composition, no matter the abrasive. He's not thinking about what he's saying.

Part of my response contained the following comments, none of which were ever addressed and the discussion basically just stopped there - there was no attempt at a rebuttal from him:

You think carnauba waxes are too abrasive for clear coat and would rather use a polish designed to remove scratches from plastic? Sorry, that makes no sense.

A good quality wax, whether a carnauba based product or a full synthetic, is so mild as to be inconsequential with regard to removing clear coat. I've see plenty of tests using paint thickness gauges where the paint was polished using a fairly abrasive polishing compound with a high speed rotary buffer. Even then, in experienced hands of course, the amount of clear removed is minimal.

Your swirl marks don't come from the carnauba, but from the application method and materials. For example, terry cloth has quite a bite to it and can mar the paint quite easily. You should never use terry cloth as a wax applicator, only a soft foam applicator pad. Removing the hazed wax should be done with a clean microfiber towel, a good one, with only enough pressure to pull the hazed wax off the surface. There is no benefit to repeatedly "buffing" the area in an attempt to bring up more shine.

So while there certainly are some crazy (not to be confused with Car Crazy) ideas out there, I have actually seen the results of what happens when a vehicle is treated the way RaskyR1's acquaintance suggests. The vehicle was a three year old Nissan Frontier pickup that had never really been "touched". It was always washed in a touchless wash with those harsh detergents and dried under those huge blowers. Never waxed. Never toweled dry. The amount of bonded contaminants was incredible, and there wasn't much gloss to speak of, but one I stripped all the crud off the paint was almost swirl free. But the truck basically looked horrid before I started, even though it was clean. Well, "clean" as in "no caked on dirt", not what you and I would call "clean"!

But is this something we should strive for, as opposed to properly detailing and maintaining a finish? I don't think so. So many people get hung up on the idea of a polish removing clear coat that it scares them silly. I haven't polished my PT in a year, but I'm extremely careful about how I wash and maintain it so even a year on it's virtually swirl free. I'm debating whether or not it needs to be clayed at this point as I feel it's borderline, but the point is if I can maintain it to a level where I need to polish it maybe every 18 months, or even 24 months, and I'm polishing with a DA and M80 to remove the swirls, that clear coat is going to last longer than the car. Or my desire to own it. I swear these people must think "removing clear when polishing" means you're going to use a rotary with a wool pad and a heavy compound every six months, and lean on that thing to boot! Yeah, in that case you may have some clear coat issues in a few years, but that is far from responsible paint care. People need to stop and think, not just thinkthinkthinkthink. It's dangerous I tell you!!!

[RaskyR1]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

Thanks Mike! That pretty much sums up what I was thinking...I'm just not good at putting my thoughts down on a key board.


I gave up trying to reason with this guy. Though, I still don't like the idea of him suggesting such things to others who obviously just want to care of their car properly.

[HagFan]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

Let me summarize: Well kept vehicles, and show cars, look showroom ready after many years. Neglected cars look junkyard ready, with heavily oxidized paint and clear coat failure after a few short years.

It's just plain nuts to believe that a car cannot be proplerly washed without scratching it, and that somehow leaving dirt (and acid rain) on the surface is somehow a better regimen. One would be a long, long time and many iterations of polishing (with the proper products) before depleting a factory paint job.

I'm now preaching to the choir, but we keep them washed to avoid having to use the heavy stuff--the abrasive polishes.

[Deaner5]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

I always find it funny that people are worried about "taking off" paint. It's just crazy, especially when you think about if you get hit by someone who parks next to you and that "takes off" the paint and you really see and feel how little paint is actually on a car.

While I don't think you can ever "rub" through or anything else to your paint, I would rather look good in my ride then get caught constantly driving a dirty ride. I think we all know the good feeling of a clean car and the not so good feeling of a dirty car. Plus, the impression it gives other is also a nice bonus.

[Jbirk]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

When you DO NOT wash a car, the Dealer or service center will wash it for you at some point. Only thing is that it will have 3000-7500 miles of stuff embedded and baked on the paint. This means it will not come off easily and they will likely scrub it very hard using anything but the best technique. All of this dirt and grime, a pressure washer, and the wrong technique guarantees swirls.

If you were to wash a completely clean car with a completely clean wash mitt and wash water, you would be pretty much guaranteed no swirls. Hence, the only logical explanation is that the grime on the car is what is scratching the paint and the more grime and harder it is to get off the paint the more damage it will do when you wash it.

You therefore should rinse first and use plenty of lubricity and the cleanest possible wash mitt meaning you take extra care to ring it out and rinse the wash mitt before each re-soaping the cleaned mitt (2 bucket method). You never put a dirty mitt to the paint and do not scrub. One swipe and light pressure is all it should take unless you have bonded contaminates. In which case you eventually use clay and tar remover depending on the problem.

If you do not maintain the car and a standard event (bird dropping) takes place, it will overtime etch the paint. The Acid will start working on the paint the moment the dropping makes contact. It will very slowly etch deep into the paint. If left unattended the process will continue until you have a very deep etching. If you remove the bird dropping, the etching will stop. If your car is waxed, it will be like a greased frying pay. The bird dropping and anything else will not stick as well and remove more easily. Moreover, the full force of the acid will not be in as good a contact with the paint. The wax will not stop a dropping, but it will slow its progress likely allowing you to remove it before irreversible damage is done. Waxing will also make washing and drying your car less abrasive as it will take much less effort to remove the grime and the water afterwards.

Sometimes people are told they do not need to wax their cars. This was first rumored back in the clear coat days when clear was new. People were made to believe that their clear coated paint is protected by a hard, impenetrable layer. Now I have heard at least two co-workers mention that wax is not necessary. One lady reports that she takes her suburban in once a year to her detailer. He says wax is not needed on modern clear coats that they use clay, and she believes her car looks new. Sounds to me like a two step process Wash, Clay and he charges $100. I am not going to argue with her because I am not a detailer and she would never believe me anyway. All that matters in the long run is her car looks good to her. Another co-worker drives a new BMW. They put a paint sealant on it, so it is undoubtedly good forever she thinks.

To be honest, I do not know or care what sealant they used on her car. My car does not have the dealer sealant. I do not trust the dealer applying the sealant, and I would certainly not pay $1500 for any sealant even if it were that Zymol $$$$$$ stuff. The reason is that my car's paint already looks better than her paint and overtime her paint is going to slowly degrade in appearance. I, however, will slowly remove microscopic amounts of my clear coat to keep it looking as good as the day I got it. I expect the paint to last up to 10 years or until I get rid of it before then. If my clear ever fails, I am going to wet sand off the clear and polish it single stage :-)

[the other pc]

Re: To wash/wax or not to wash/wax???

...Anytime you touch your car , its going to put imperfections in it. Weither it be swirls , scratches or hazing. Polishing removes clear and sooner or later it will cause trouble.

So washing a car , waxing and polishing is only to make the apperance better. Basically the less you wash , wax or polish , the better it will look longer , except it will be dirtier.

Someone who washes it weekly will normally have a nice and clean car but will also work the paint less. If you wash daily your going to get more swirls much sooner. Same goes if you wash it every other week. It wont be as clean looking but it will also be less scratched over time.......

You could apply the same logic to brushing your teeth. Toothpaste has abrasives in it and removes a tiny amount of tooth enamel each time you brush. But contaminants on your teeth will rot them away just like contaminants on your paint unless they're removed.

You see cars whose owners have followed that advice (whether deliberately or through neglect) all the time: The Clearcoat Failure Archive


PC.