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350nub
Jan 30th, 2008, 03:55 PM
How many passes to break the diminishing abrasives in M80 down? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=192688)

I am going to use #80 on a polishing pad..

How do you know when the diminishing abrasives have broken down?

Also how many full-size sedans can you buff out using a single 32oz bottle of M80?

BlueZero
Jan 30th, 2008, 04:27 PM
The polish will go almost clear when it's broken down. If it starts to dry out and gum up you've worked it too long. Once you do it a few times you get the hang of what it looks like. I don't really keep track of how much product I use so I can't help you there. It will last quite a while.

Check out this thread. It will really give you a jump start on learning polishing with a DA. You are using a DA right?

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2965)

Chex
Jan 31st, 2008, 07:24 AM
You really can't tell how many cars you can do with a single step polish if you detail other cars, since every paint finish is in different condition, But if you're going to use it in your car only, I guess that the first pass with #80 will be the one where you use more product to remove the scratches and swirl marks up to a point where you are happy with the results. After that, if you keep the finish in a very good condition, you would use less product since the defects would be easy to remove, which means you wouldn't need to re-do panels and thus, saving product.

Hope this helps.

Mike Phillips
Jan 31st, 2008, 08:38 AM
In the article Scott linked to, if you mark out a section about 20" square or so, and work this section making 4 passes, that's 2 passes in one pattern and then 2 sets of passes in another pattern, that should be long enough to break the diminishing abrasives down, look at the diagram below and ignore the Kitty-Corner passes and if you just do the side-to-side and the front-to-back passes, (2 times for each direction), this should be long enough.

Move the polisher in different directions
You also want to go in at least two different directions, for example, from where you're standing, side to side, then front to back. You can also move the polisher in a kitty/corner fashion for complete, thorough and uniform cleaning action.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PolisherPathOfTravel.jpg

Only work a small area at a time
This will vary according to the shape, curve or body line of the panel you are polishing but for example on a large flat panel, you want to stay around a 12" to 18" squared area. The point being, don't try to work to large of an area all at once or you won't remove the defects equally everywhere.


WE show this every Saturday in our classes and once you see it done first hand in person it makes so much sense and is easy to understand.

Mike Phillips
Jan 31st, 2008, 08:39 AM
Be sure to read this...

Tips & Techniques for using the G100/PC Dual Action Polisher (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20874)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems

Trying to work too large of an area at one time
Move the polisher too fast over the surface
Too low of speed setting for removing swirls
Too little pressure on the head of the unit
Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating
Not keeping the pad flat while working your product
Too much product, too little product
Not cleaning the pad often enoughHere's a list of the solutions in matching order,

Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video cameraThe first 4 are the most common. Can't tell you how many times we hear a comment like this from someone in the garage after demonstrating the correct technique

"That's what I'm doing wrong"


The dual action polisher is a gentle tool, that's why people like it. People are afraid of machines because they're worried they're going to either instill swirls or burn through the paint. When they learn that this is pretty hard to do with this machine, so after enough research or after watching a demonstration they learn to trust it and try it.

Summary: People like the dual action polisher because it's oscillating action is safe and gentle to the surface.

Now follow me on this...
For the same reason people love the dual action polisher, (it's safe and gentle), a segment of people get frustrated with it because it won't remove all defects all the time. It won't tackle serious or deep defects quickly and easily. It won't always work on really hard paints. So for the same reason people love this tool, they also hate it, they just don't know why. Maybe after reading this post they will understand.


This is the reason this thread is so widely read and you can learn a lot from it if you'll only take the time to read through it.

PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! - The Limits of the Dual Action Polisher (http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3056)


Even the pictures of the paint on the white truck on the first page and the story behind it are powerful and REAL (This writer took them and did the testing with both the G100/PC and the RB).

When the G100/PC with a strong cleaner/polish like M83 and our W-8006 polishing pad doesn't remove the defects to your satisfaction or within an acceptable time limit the answer is not to get more aggressive with a more aggressive pad or chemical or both, the answer is to switch to a more powerful machine like the rotary buffer and or take the car to a Pro who knows how to use a rotary buffer, or learn to live with the defects.

Scottwax2 Hope this helps...

Jeepster04
Jan 31st, 2008, 09:38 AM
I do exactly what Mike said. Ive gotten the technique down along with the speed at which I move the buffer and the pressure I use. After getting the hang of that you dont need to worry about the polish breaking down since it will be broken down by the time you go over it 2 times for each direction.

02zx9r
Jan 15th, 2009, 10:01 AM
This is an amazing site. I wish I would have found this before all the other sites. I have learned so much in only a few days here.

Thanks all!

gb387
Jan 15th, 2009, 02:47 PM
This is an amazing site. I wish I would have found this before all the other sites. I have learned so much in only a few days here.

Thanks all!

Great site isn't it!! Tons of great people and even more great information. :xyxthumbs

yga
Feb 10th, 2009, 12:29 AM
In the article Scott linked to, if you mark out a section about 20" square or so, and work this section making 4 passes, that's 2 passes in one pattern and then 2 sets of passes in another pattern, that should be long enough to break the diminishing abrasives down, look at the diagram below and ignore the Kitty-Corner passes and if you just do the side-to-side and the front-to-back passes, (2 times for each direction), this should be long enough.

Move the polisher in different directions
You also want to go in at least two different directions, for example, from where you're standing, side to side, then front to back. You can also move the polisher in a kitty/corner fashion for complete, thorough and uniform cleaning action.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PolisherPathOfTravel.jpg

Only work a small area at a time
This will vary according to the shape, curve or body line of the panel you are polishing but for example on a large flat panel, you want to stay around a 12" to 18" squared area. The point being, don't try to work to large of an area all at once or you won't remove the defects equally everywhere.


WE show this every Saturday in our classes and once you see it done first hand in person it makes so much sense and is easy to understand.

can i use the same techniques with rotary buffer...i often do a horizontal pattern till the product broken down...is it the right tecniques, does it have a side effect if i only do a horizontal pattern with rotary buffer

Mike Phillips
Feb 10th, 2009, 10:12 AM
can i use the same techniques with rotary buffer...i often do a horizontal pattern till the product broken down...is it the right techniques, does it have a side effect if i only do a horizontal pattern with rotary buffer


When using a rotary buffer or a DA Polisher, or any machine where the goal is to remove defects, i.e. remove paint, then the goal is uniform material removal over the area being worked or the entire panel.

Moving a rotary buffer only side to side will work as long as you overlap your passes, it's usually better to use at least a couple of different pattern directions.

What are you working on?

:)

yga
Feb 10th, 2009, 04:39 PM
When using a rotary buffer or a DA Polisher, or any machine where the goal is to remove defects, i.e. remove paint, then the goal is uniform material removal over the area being worked or the entire panel.

Moving a rotary buffer only side to side will work as long as you overlap your passes, it's usually better to use at least a couple of different pattern directions.

What are you working on?

:)

im sorry mike what you mean by what am i working on? the product or the machine...i'm using rotary polisher and usually using M83 or M80 :)
(I'm sorry if my spelling relly bad :))

Mike Phillips
Feb 10th, 2009, 04:47 PM
im sorry mike what you mean by what am i working on? the product or the machine...i'm using rotary polisher and usually using M83 or M80 :)
(I'm sorry if my spelling relly bad :))

I meant is this for a specific detailing project? As in what kind of car or truck are you working on?

Fresh paint?
Factory baked-on paint?
Daily Driver?
Show Car?
Restoring antique single stage paint
Single stage metallic paint (You can create Tiger Stripes buffing in only side to side patterns on single stage metallic paints)


Or were you asking just in general terms?


:)

yga
Feb 10th, 2009, 04:51 PM
I'm working on daily driven car...and for only general term...i'm new with this kind of stuff so i need a lot more to learn from this forum thx mike for your answer :)

Mike Phillips
Feb 10th, 2009, 04:53 PM
I'm working on daily driven car...and for only general term...i'm new with this kind of stuff so i need a lot more to learn from this forum thx mike for your answer :)


Practice makes perfect but getting information on a topic can help reduce the learning curve...

:xyxthumbs

chessplayer
Feb 12th, 2009, 08:39 AM
very interesting topic ...i am definetly learning tons of info ....mike keep up the good work