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DevilDog
Aug 9th, 2004, 04:03 PM
What's the deal with "Layering?" (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2167)


I have been using NXT on and off all summer long. But the only thing that really scares me about it is its lack of being truly layerable do to its cleaning properties.

Right before the winter months I like to pile on many layers of a product because I cant usually detail from dec to the beginning of march. My vehicle sits outside and is a daily driver and is hardly ever even washed during these times. Maybe a spray off at the local car wash when weather permits but thats about it. I usually go with something from Zaino or KSG for this time of year because of its supposed layering ability.

Now what I have been wandering for sometime is this stuff truly laterable or is it really just hype?

Is 2 layers just as durable as 20?

Is the first 2 thin layers where the durability comes from and the others just sacraficial?

Mike Phillips
Aug 9th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by DevilDog
I have been using NXT on and off all summer long. But the only thing that really scares me about it is its lack of being truly layerable do to its cleaning properties.

Right before the winter months I like to pile on many layers of a product because I cant usually detail from dec to the beginning of march. My vehicle sits outside and is a daily driver and is hardly ever even washed during these times. Maybe a spray off at the local car wash when weather permits but thats about it. I usually go with something from Zaino or KSG for this time of year because of its supposed layering ability.

Now what I have been wandering for sometime is this stuff truly laterable or is it really just hype?

Is 2 layers just as durable as 20?

Is the first 2 thin layers where the durability comes from and the others just sacraficial?

Hi Devildog,

This is usually never a fun discussion and often times will evolve into a flame war. That said, to start with, here is some information from Meguiar's new FAQ

12. Are multiple coats of wax beneficial? (Layering)

That depends on what effect you are looking for: protection or beauty.

Protection

If your looking for the maximum protection possible, then one or two thin coats of wax, maybe even up to three thin coats of wax, has the potential to create the most surface protection depending on the wax, the surface itself and whether or not sufficient time has passed in-between each application. Of course the law of diminishing returns states that you will not create exponentially greater layers of protection with each application, but Meguiar's knows that a second, and sometimes third application will insure uniform, thorough coverage over the majority of the surface, thus maximizing the protection.

Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time.

Beauty

Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?

In a word: Possibly

Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.

These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on

* A brand new car
* A car with a brand new paint job
* An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
* An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent conditionIf any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.

After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.

Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.

Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become. 100% of 100 is 100

Mike Phillips
Aug 9th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Copied and pasted from Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ (http://www.meguiars.com/faq/),

13. Can Meguiar's waxes be "Layered"?

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.


Layerable waxes

A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.

Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.

There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.


The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer". If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another.

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build, and this is key; without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. of the finish

This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with. If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.

Mike

Mike Phillips
Aug 9th, 2004, 06:02 PM
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Tim Lingor
Aug 10th, 2004, 08:58 AM
I totally agree with Mike on this one! After all of these years of detailing, I have not found any benefit to layering much past 2-3 coats of any Last Step Product. I have never had problems with harsh winters or blazing hot summers from applying just 2 coats of #20, or MPPP or, NXT. Just IMHO! :)

Tim

DevilDog
Aug 10th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Thanks guys.

Mike I will try to think my through better before asking so I dont open a can of worms. Sorry I was just looking for info not trying to start a flame war.

2hotford as having used all 3 of the sealents wich one do you think is the most durable for the winter months? MPPP?

Mike Phillips
Aug 10th, 2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by DevilDog
Thanks guys.

Mike I will try to think my through better before asking so I don't open a can of worms. Sorry I was just looking for info not trying to start a flame war.

No problem. This is just a topic that has a couple of different schools of thought with some pretty strong and varied opinions.

Mike

tguil
Aug 10th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Thanks Mike and Tim for the remainders about layering. I like the suggestion to "...find a product that you like and use it often..." whether it adds layers or not. :xyxthumbs

Tom :cool:

Tim Lingor
Aug 10th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Hey,

After using all three, that is a tough one. I have always had the best success with #20. However, this past winter, I also had a chance to test NXT through brutal weather and it held up very well! I know my answer is not specific as each product has their strong points. However, I will acknowledge that #20 was and still may be my long term favorite!

Tim

RamAirV1
Aug 14th, 2004, 07:17 PM
NXT Spray Booster Wax seems like it would be great for winter touch ups. It dries quickly at colder temperatures compared to MPPP. It can be used over other Meguiars waxes too. I tried it over MPPP at the end of last winter and it worked great.

I have had great success with MPPP applying two coats in December. It will normally last through most of the winter. I will probably try NXT over the winter since that is what I am using now.

NXT and MPPP are still holding up equally well on the hood of my car.

If the cold weather has already hit when you are applying your winter wax, you might be better off using #20 than MPPP. MPPP takes a very long time to dry when the temperature drops below 50°. #20 and NXT do not seem to have trouble drying in cold weather.

It seems to me that a coat or two of any wax applied every month or so will protect better longer than 6 coats applied all at once.

RamAirV1

Raven0215
Aug 23rd, 2004, 07:36 PM
I just ordered some NXT Wax. Would it be alright to put a layer of NXT wax on and then put a layer of Gold Class over the nxt? I have a black car and I was thinking that the superior protection of the nxt would compliment the deeper look of the gold class well. Also how long should i wait after applying the NXT before I should put the gold class on? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Also I like to apply the wax by hand and remove by hand. Then i go over the car with a low speed buffer to touch up and give a more "even" look to the car, is this ok?

Mike Phillips
Aug 23rd, 2004, 08:21 PM
Hi Raven0215

Welcome to Meguiar's Online! :welcome

Let me see if I can answer your questions,



Originally posted by Raven0215
I just ordered some NXT Wax. Would it be all right to put a layer of NXT wax on and then put a layer of Gold Class over the nxt? I have a black car and I was thinking that the superior protection of the nxt would compliment the deeper look of the gold class well.

Yes you can apply a coat of Gold Class over the top of NXT, this is commonly referred to as Topping.

I have a short how-to article on topping NXT Tech Wax here,

Topping NXT or other products (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1648)

While this how-to article is about topping NXT Tech Wax the same basic information would apply to topping any wax. I"ve noticed a lot of people like to top NXT with #26 Hi-Tech Yellow Wax. Myself, I see no need to top NXT.


Also how long should I wait after applying the NXT before I should put the gold class on? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

This is a question that has been talked about quite a bit lately, I've read some opinions by people that don't work for Meguiar's on other forums on the subject that counter what I'm going to write below, you can decide who and what you want to believe.

On the subject of how long to wait before applying a second, or third coat of NXT Tech wax, or apply a different wax over the top of an initial coat of NXT Tech Wax, I spoke with our Vice President of Research and Development and here is what he said.

For maximum protection and beauty, it would be best to allow approximately 12 hours to pass to insure all of the synthetic polymers to fully set-up. He explained that in some areas, the polymers will cure and set-up sooner, while some polymers will cure and set-up later. Because there is no way to measure or know when all of the polymers have fully, and completely set-up, he said for maximum performance, you should allow a window of time, approximately 12 hours to pass.

The above is a guideline for the most detailed oriented, serious enthusiasts that enjoy polishing the paint on their cars and don't mind spending this kind of time on their car's finish.

Sometimes I have the opportunity to wait this long. Here is a car that I applied one coat of NXT Tech Wax to, and then waited until the next day to apply the second coat of NXT Tech Wax to.

1999 Corvette - Repair compound scouring in finish (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218)

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2ClearedandReadyforTake-off.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2toocool-med.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/21999CorvetteFinished3.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/21999CorvetteReflectionShotBottle1c.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/21999CorvetteShrubReflection4c.jpg

By the way, I pulled the Corvette out into the sun the next day before applying the second coat of Tech Wax to inspect and it looked great, but the second coat took the results to a higher level. After the second coat, I stopped and returned the car to the owner.

Please don’t think that you have to wait 12 hours or longer to apply a second coat, most of the time I apply the second coat 15 to 20 minutes after removing the first coat because of time constraints, here’s an example of two coats applied back to back on black,

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2F150Finished11-med.jpg

http://www.autopia.org/gallery/data/500/2704f150finished2.jpg

Either way, two thin coats of just about any wax is always going to protect better and look better than one coat, and especially one thick coat of wax. Thick coats just waste product and make removal difficult.


Also I like to apply the wax by hand and remove by hand. Then i go over the car with a low speed buffer to touch up and give a more "even" look to the car, is this ok?

This is perfectly OK. I personally like to remove Tech Wax with an Ultimate Bonnet on either a W-7006 or W-8006 foam pad on about the 5.0 setting of the Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher. We taught this member of the SoCalm Miata club how to do just that in the pictures below...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2MiataRemovingNXTUB1.jpg


Hope this helps...

Mike

Raven0215
Aug 23rd, 2004, 08:45 PM
Hey thanks that was a lot of usefull information.

RamAirV1
Aug 24th, 2004, 06:59 PM
Should the same speed (5.0) be used when removing Tech Wax with an original style Ultimate Bonnet?

I have found wax (and polish) removal with Ultimate Bonnets on a PC to result in the least amount of swirls. I have yet to see any using this method, even on black! Up until now I have set the speed on the PC to 3.5 though.

RamAirV1

Mike Phillips
Aug 24th, 2004, 07:10 PM
I usually show people how to remove wax with the Ultimate Bonnet on the PC on the 4.0 setting, and as they get the feel for it, bump them up to the 5.0 setting.

Mike

RamAirV1
Aug 26th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Does buffing the NXT at 5.0 result in more gloss, increased durability, or faster cure times compared to using a lower speed? I was just wondering because more heat could be generated at 5.0, giving some of those advantages.

RamAirV1

Mike Phillips
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by RamAirV1
Does buffing the NXT at 5.0 result in more gloss, increased durability, or faster cure times compared to using a lower speed? I was just wondering because more heat could be generated at 5.0, giving some of those advantages.

RamAirV1

Just to make sure, when you say "buffing the NXT at 5.0", do you mean when you're applying it or removing it with a microfiber bonnet?

Mike

Scottwax
Apr 22nd, 2005, 08:17 PM
Excellent points, Mike.

I know some enthusiasts swear by layering and say each layer makes it look better. Up to the point of complete coverage, I can agree with that. However, like you pointed out, once you hit the 100% point of the appearance peak you really can't improve on it. I think the reason some believe the additional layers improve the look is because during the couple of weeks since the last application, the appearance has ever so slightly degraded and the new layer brings the appearance back to 100% again. What is happening, IMO, is the look has dropped back to (for arguement's sake) 98% each time prior to layering and then you add another coat and are back at 100%. Since the car does look better each time, the person then believes the apprearance continually improves but rather, it is being re-upped to 100%.

Personally, I'll stop at 2 layers with a sealant and then top with a carnauba on my own black car.

Mike Phillips
Apr 22nd, 2005, 08:35 PM
I agree 100% with you Scott. After a little time goes by, the car is washed/quick detailed/exposed to the environment as a daily driver etc. and the previously achieved results fall back a little. Next the person re-applies the product of their choice and it restores the plateau they previously had achieved.

The person has forgotten how great it looked after the last detailing session and in their mind, they think they are making the finish look better and better and better with each application when in reality, they are merely restoring the finish to the plateau they previously achieved.

Once you reach the maximum potential, you've hit the wall. That's a good thing! Scottwax1

(A real Pro always hits the wall) ;)

RamAirV1
Apr 23rd, 2005, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Just to make sure, when you say "buffing the NXT at 5.0", do you mean when you're applying it or removing it with a microfiber bonnet?

Mike


Ooops, I forgot to clarify that! I meant NXT removal with an UB at a speed setting at 5.0. When applying it with a finishing pad, I use a speed of about 3.0.

Has anyone tried machine application of the Paste NXT yet? The next thing I will probably try is to apply the paste by hand and remove with an UB on the PC.

RamAirV1

Scottwax
Apr 23rd, 2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by RamAirV1

Has anyone tried machine application of the Paste NXT yet?

I have. Yesterday, in fact. I used the PC wrench as a spatula to put a few dabs per panel on the pad. I used a blue Propel finishing pad, which seems to be right in between the Meguiars polishing and finishing pad in aggressiveness. Works very well with NXT. Anyway by the time I got about halfway around my 626, the pad needed very little addtional product per panel. The paste version seems to set up more quickly, it passed the finger swipe test immediately after I finished applying NXT to the whole car (maybe 10 minutes total time). I removed using an ultimate bonnet with the speed on 3 or 4.

Today, I applied a second layer of NXT paste by hand and again, once it was applied to the entire car, it wiped off effortlessly with no streaking at all. Definitely more user friendly than the liquid version, which seems to take longer to completely dry for streak free removal.

Looks terrific! I applied it over #80 and Clearkote's Red Machine Glaze. I'll have pics in a day or two.

RamAirV1
Apr 24th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Thanks for the update. I figured it was a matter of time before someone would try it.

For some reason, maybe the "glide factor" Mike talks about, it seems a little bit easier to apply the paste in a thin coat. And yes, it definitely does set up a little bit faster.

RamAirV1

tbone2004
Apr 29th, 2005, 08:34 AM
Hey guys - I have been reading a lot about people using a PC to remove wax. I have always done it by hand - how much better does it come out - or is it cuz it is simply easier / faster to do? Never used one, always done manually...just curious.

Mike Phillips
Apr 29th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by tbone2004
Hey guys - I have been reading a lot about people using a PC to remove wax. I have always done it by hand - how much better does it come out - or is it cuz it is simply easier / faster to do? Never used one, always done manually...just curious.

We've demonstrated this hundreds of times at our detailing classes and here's the skinny, most people can remove the wax as fast or faster by hand, however, removing the wax by machine tends to leave a completely streak-free, high gloss finish every time plus, you remove your fingers from the process, (pressure points), whereas removing with a bonnet over a foam pad distributes the pressure evenly over a larger surface area.

Something you need to see and try to determine if it's right for you and your car. If you're working on a daily driver that's white, you might not ever care, if you're working on something cool, perhaps a special interest car, (at least special to you), then you might really like it.

DUMP_TRUCK
Oct 4th, 2006, 04:11 PM
if someone could clear up one quick thing about layering for a beginner..... as i understand it, it is usually recommended to wait around 12 hours before applying the second coat. unless you live in a bubble, there is no way the car will not be dirty again in 12 hours, even if it just sat there. i know i have orange drops from the sky that look like frank's red hot on my car within seconds of finishing, let alone 12 hours of these drops and other contanminents. are you to wash the car again? just quick detailer? thanks.

Murr1525
Oct 4th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Yeah... or don't wait 12 hours.

You may not even be able to tell any difference in looks if you just applied after 20 minutes. I cant.

And you really should move away from someone who is tossing Franks Red Hot into the air... though finally my car would taste as good as it looks...

keesue
Dec 25th, 2006, 01:38 PM
I applied NXT paste by hand, both application and removal steps, to my new commute car after switching from another product. I put one coat and inspected it carefully to insure even distribution. The resulting shine was terrific. The next day, I decided to put on a coat of GC paste for commparison. I put it on half of the hood and looked. The shine appeared to be a bit better but not by much. When I stood back and looked however, the shine was clearly better to my eye. I decided to put a second coat of NXT on the other half of the hood. The difference was subtle but from a distance the GC looked 'better'. I know this is completely subjective, both look outstanding; but heck, that's the fun part of this. I topped the rest of the car and buffed it out with a MF. I lastly used cheesecloth to make sure I removed all of the product. I stood back several feet and the car looks spectacular!

I completely agree with Mike and the position that 100% is 100%. I sure like the look.

mh68
Dec 25th, 2006, 04:12 PM
I have. Yesterday, in fact. I used the PC wrench as a spatula to put a few dabs per panel on the pad. I used a blue Propel finishing pad, which seems to be right in between the Meguiars polishing and finishing pad in aggressiveness. Works very well with NXT. Anyway by the time I got about halfway around my 626, the pad needed very little addtional product per panel. The paste version seems to set up more quickly, it passed the finger swipe test immediately after I finished applying NXT to the whole car (maybe 10 minutes total time). I removed using an ultimate bonnet with the speed on 3 or 4.

Today, I applied a second layer of NXT paste by hand and again, once it was applied to the entire car, it wiped off effortlessly with no streaking at all. Definitely more user friendly than the liquid version, which seems to take longer to completely dry for streak free removal.

Looks terrific! I applied it over #80 and Clearkote's Red Machine Glaze. I'll have pics in a day or two.

I agree. I always apply NXT paste with the PC and the 9006 pad. I just use the foam applicator in the can to evenly distribute a thin layer of paste on the DC pad. The paste does cure quicker and more evenly than the liquid and I have yet to get streaks from the paste.

Mike

El Tano
Jan 3rd, 2007, 05:48 PM
Now on the tutorial it says"

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes)

Which are layerable waxes ????

I put 1 coat of Gold Class liquid wax in my car every month, the car is only 4 months old.

Now I got a tin of #16 that I got on internet.

and I want to try the NXT...


Can I mix this waxes??? or should I stick to just one of them???
if so...Wich one..
if not, should I remove the Gold Class from my car before appling the #16 next time I wax the car???


PS: I waxed the car today with GC...I would like to apply #16 tomorrow

Murr1525
Jan 3rd, 2007, 08:08 PM
In theory, Nxt has some cleaners, so it would go on the bottom, with #16 or Gold Class being put on top.

Now, even with 'layerable' waxes, it has never really been proven if they actualy form layers, or the old and new layers just sort of blend together.

El Tano
Jan 3rd, 2007, 09:56 PM
Thanks murr1525

rkollman
Feb 4th, 2007, 06:33 AM
I am getting ready to wax/seal my light silver Honda Ridgeline truck that I have kept polished wih speed glaze and final inspection for almost 3 months after some body work. (I chose to use only polish on the whole truck during the outgassing period) The gloss/shine on this vehicle is fantastic.

The wax/sealant decision is one thing, but which program to use to maintain the finish can be confusing.

I have seen some suggest sealant topped with wax works well? Would that suggest that one would use wax after a sealant and then wax based quick deatailers from there on? (Maybe polish once a year and reaplly sealant/wax)

Once one commits to a sealant, are they better off staying with similar synthetic products like the synthetic detailer and not combine these with waxes? I have a dark green vehicle I used synthetic sealant on after polishing with speed glaze. It has been in the garage and I used some final inspection to shine it up. I'm undecided if wax products should be combined on this vehicle as well?

Murr1525
Feb 4th, 2007, 09:08 PM
Well, you've got a few different trains of thought going.

One thing is that all the Meguiar's products work well together, so you can use any spray detailers you like with any wax/sealant, etc.

As far as how often you may need to clean/polish/wax, thats hard to say for sure. If it is a daily driver, harsh elements, you may want to do it more often. If your car is exposed to lots of dirt/grime, you may not want to just wax after washing, you might want to do a full cleaning/polishing first. Just sort of have to evaluate the paint condition as you go.

Its really up to you what you want to try combining, of if you want to just stick with the Synthetic Sealant. You can try doing a panel one way, and a neighboring panel another way, and see what you like best.

rkollman
Feb 5th, 2007, 11:05 AM
The one question I did not bring up clearly is regarding layers of wax/sealant. Once I polish my truck, what if I use a Sealant first then follow with a coat of wax? Then use a detailer from there? Does the sythetic sealant serve as a possible base coat to be top coated? Or, would I be better off using either 2 coats of wax or two coats of synthetic?

Mike Phillips
Feb 5th, 2007, 11:30 AM
Does the synthetic sealant serve as a possible base coat to be top coated?


This is the process most people would follow, sealant topped by a wax type substance, i.e. NXT topped by M16, a synthetic paint sealant topped by a traditional pure wax without any cleaners.




Or, would I be better off using either 2 coats of wax or two coats of synthetic?

This is what we do when we're applying two coats of wax, pick a product and apply two thin coats of the same product.

Murr1525
Feb 5th, 2007, 11:36 AM
Yes, all 3 combinations will work fine. A lot of people like to the Synthetic Sealant or Nxt Wax on the bottom, then top it with #26 Hi-Tec Yellow, or Gold Class. I go for two coats of Synthetic Sealant, or a cleaner/wax and one coat of Synthetic Sealant.

Now, the actual benefit of using two different products is a bit more subjective. Some people think it looks better, some just prefer two coats of the same wax or sealant.

That is why I had mentioned doing a panel or two with different combinations, and see if you can tell any difference, or like a certain combo best.

As far as the dark green car goes, it migh benefit most from a pure polish like #7 Show Car Glaze, after you use the cleaner/polish. But that is just another combination to try....;)

Mike Phillips
Feb 5th, 2007, 11:42 AM
That is why I had mentioned doing a panel or two with different combinations, and see if you can tell any difference, or like a certain combo best.




Here's an article we wrote about this very thing which explains with some detail on the how and the why.


Topping NXT (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1648)


Topping NXT

There is always a lot of talk about topping NXT with other products, because this is a popular topic, I thought I would offer this simple suggestion.

If you think you would like to apply a topper over NXT, before you apply your choice of a topper over the entire finish, first do a side-by-side comparison and inspect your results carefully to insure that the test area does in fact look better than NXT by itself before applying your choice of topper to the entire finish. If you apply your choice of a topper to the entire car without comparing, you will never know if it improved or diminished the results created by the NXT alone.


Here's how to do a test spot,

First - Wait until you have two thin, uniform applications of NXT Tech Wax over the entire finish. Two thin applications always look better than one application.

Second - Find a nice flat panel like the hood or deck lid so that you can look down on the finish while standing over it. Apply your choice of a topper to a square section about one foot square being careful to do so in a way as to have a very distinct section with only the topper in this section. Allow the topper to dry according to the instruction and the remove with a microfiber polishing cloth or a clean, soft 100% cotton terry cloth towel. To be fair, you should apply a second coat in this same section to insure a uniform application. Again, apply and remove according to the product's directions.

After you applied and removed your choice of a topper carefully, inspect the two areas under different lighting conditions. Different lighting conditions will allow your eyes to see the different dimensions of your finish, such as richness, gloss, shine and clearness or clarity. View the two areas from different angles, from directly overhead, and with a light source centered in the area, like the sun. You may also want to have some friends compare the two areas also, a second set of fresh eyes may see something you miss, especially after you've been working on the finish and staring at the paint for hours.

If after doing this side-by-side comparison test in one small area, your eyes will tell you whether or not you want to continue with applying the topper to the entire finish.

Hope this helps...

Mike Phillips

rkollman
Feb 5th, 2007, 11:44 AM
I think I will try the synthetic sealant topped with yellow wax and see how that goes. I like to use detailer sprays to maintain a shine and that may work best. With the silver truck having just reached its suggested outgassing after a paint job to several panels, the only concern may be that a sealant may be best used later?

Mike Phillips
Feb 5th, 2007, 11:54 AM
the only concern may be that a sealant may be best used later?


After 30 days air cure, it's really not an issue... wax-on! :xyxthumbs

rkollman
Feb 5th, 2007, 12:01 PM
After 30 days air cure, it's really not an issue... wax-on! :xyxthumbs
well, I'm over 60 days now and was shooting for close to 90 after the painted panels. So I guess the finish has no special precautions at this point?

Mike Phillips
Feb 5th, 2007, 12:30 PM
well, I'm over 60 days now and was shooting for close to 90 after the painted panels. So I guess the finish has no special precautions at this point?

It's time to add protection, have some fun and make your Honda look good.

Love those Ridgelines, would like to see one in a metallic tangerine with lots of chrome. Like the Panic Parrot without the flames,

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PanicFinished1.jpg

Murr1525
Feb 5th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Everythings better with metallic tangerine...

rkollman
Feb 5th, 2007, 12:42 PM
i hear ya... The temperatures are supposed to return to the 40's in a week with no snow is in sight either. The garage will be at about 60 degrees for the wax?

That will be around 70 days waiting after a paint job to the panels.

I think I saw the tangerine Ridgeline in a forum you mentioned and will look for that pic....

rkollman
Feb 13th, 2007, 04:25 PM
It's time to add protection, have some fun and make your Honda look good.

Love those Ridgelines, would like to see one in a metallic tangerine with lots of chrome. Like the Panic Parrot without the flames,

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PanicFinished1.jpg
well, cleaned the silver Ridgeline with polish in a 55 degree garage. Used the professional synthetic applying it to the whole truck and then removing. (20-30 minutes dry time). That gloss was great. I then used Yellow wax on top of that. INCREDIBLE! I guess that makes 75 days after the paint repair.

Detailers? Now what may be my best detailer to use with a garage kept vehicle that is seldom dirty. (almost a daily wipe down). Use a synthetic or wax base or maybe final inspection?

Mike Phillips
Feb 13th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Detailers? Now what may be my best detailer to use with a garage kept vehicle that is seldom dirty. (almost a daily wipe down). Use a synthetic or wax base or maybe final inspection?


Last Touch (http://www.meguiars.com/?detailer-paint-care/Last-Touch-Spray-Detailer)


http://www.meguiars.com/estore/products/product_D15501.jpg

BlueZero
Feb 13th, 2007, 04:32 PM
I am with Mike, I love my last touch. Sometimes I just spray it in the air when Im working in the garage too, it smells really good.

rkollman
Feb 13th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Last Touch (http://www.meguiars.com/?detailer-paint-care/Last-Touch-Spray-Detailer)


http://www.meguiars.com/estore/products/product_D15501.jpg
I ordered this, thanks..... Thanks for the advice through the paint repair. The #80 and final inspection helped me keep the vehicle looking as good as new. It even survived some salted roads. The use of the polish and then adding a synthetic and then the wax delivers a rich gloss that looks better than I had it before the accident. Hopefully, 75 days was enough time to wait before sealing and waxing. I guess that is at the higher end of the 30-90 day range? I'm hoping the truck is stupid and does not know I got impatient and cheated on my 90 day wait goal?

mh68
Feb 14th, 2007, 10:12 AM
I agree with Mike and Bluezero, Last Touch is the way to go. I love using it. It leaves a slick "just waxed" feel, is easy to use and smells great!
Mike

Mike Phillips
Jan 31st, 2008, 01:54 PM
***Bump***

:cool:

jmitch8011
Jun 5th, 2008, 10:57 AM
I had a question after reading thur your forum. I have an 05 scion tc blacksands pearl and it's out side all year. I do half a panel at a time until I complete the entire car. (Ex. half the trunk then half the hood) I do this to allow the first section time to dry for removal. As I follow this process I begin in the same sequence with NXT wax and then #21. My last step is to mist spray the entire car with Ultimate Quick Detailer.
Here is a picture.

http://www.clubstlscion.com/mgallery/jmitch8011/2006-04-18_005035_DSC00037_small.jpg

My question is this, Is this overkill?

Murr1525
Jun 5th, 2008, 11:07 AM
So you apply Nxt to the whole car, let it dry, buff off, then apply the coat of #21 to the car, let it dry, and buff off?

Thats right, although I might wait till the next day to UQD. I think it is best to let the waxes set up a bit first.

jmitch8011
Jun 5th, 2008, 12:04 PM
Yes, this is correct. After thinking about it I think I haven't been getting the most out of my products because i don't allow for 20 mins between each application. I usually don't have time to wait because I may be at a parking lot using shade to keep out of direct sun ligh. I also have another question. I was thinking about starting to use a buffer (flex or Mikita) to speed up this process. is this a good idea? I evenutally want to move over and use on customer cars that I clean up.

jmitch8011
Jun 5th, 2008, 12:07 PM
I tried to edit my point but actually I buff off the previous section once I have completed either 1 or 2 more sections. Usually by this time the first location is white haze.

Murr1525
Jun 5th, 2008, 12:10 PM
I would do the whole car, then come back and buff off.

As far as working by machine, you wouldnt want to wax by rotary, but it is kind of its own topic. A new thread might be best, so we can go into detail there if you want.

jmitch8011
Jun 5th, 2008, 12:23 PM
thank you and will do /

J. A. Michaels
Jun 5th, 2008, 02:46 PM
I understand your problem due to lack of shade, being outside etc. I think that if you did wait longer you would see a big improvement. Good luck.

gasti_ako
Aug 1st, 2008, 09:40 PM
nice read

JOCKTHEGLIDE
Sep 13th, 2008, 07:50 AM
nice read
I agree very good read.....

Ganesa
Mar 13th, 2009, 07:26 PM
thanks for clearing my mind after reading this, really helpful..

Bruclee
Mar 15th, 2009, 10:47 PM
Okay to sum it up: The NXT is best applied in 2 coats with a wait of at least 20mins then left alone since a 3rd coat would be redundant? The thread is old enough that NXT 2.0 hasn't been mentioned but I can imagine it is about the same as I did e-mail the question and that is what they said, more than 2 coats isn't needed. With NXT 2.0 is it still recomended to put the #21 on top or as a up keep coat at say a week later? Or should the NXT 2.0 spray be put on a week or two later?

I got a cordless 4" polisher that seems to do a good application and removal of the NXT. It's always good to find out how to do the job better.

Mike Phillips
Mar 16th, 2009, 07:39 AM
Okay to sum it up: The NXT is best applied in 2 coats with a wait of at least 20 mins then left alone since a 3rd coat would be redundant?


Yes. Technically you only need to apply one application of wax or paint sealant as long as;


The surface is clean and ready for sealing with a wax or paint sealant.
The person applying the product does a great job over applying and working in a thin, even layer over each square inch of paint.
The recommendation for 2 applications is to,


Insure uniform coverage
Insure uniform appearance



So as long as you're cleaning and prepping the paint correctly before waxing, and as long as you're doing a great job of applying the first coat, you technically don't have to apply a second coat. If you're unsure of your how thoroughly you apply the first coat, then you can as an option apply a second coat and the idea is that through the application of the second coat every square inch of paint will have been adequately had wax applied and dried to it.

One coat if you're doing a great job of applying the product, two coats as an insurance policy to insure uniform coverage over all the paint.





The thread is old enough that NXT 2.0 hasn't been mentioned but I can imagine it is about the same as I did e-mail the question and that is what they said, more than 2 coats isn't needed.


This information in this thread is for the most part timeless and applies to most all products when it comes to the topic of layering. When a product comes out where the average end-user can can truly layer a product where with each layer a measurable increase in thickness occurs, and the layer they're creating is not opaque, that is it is 100% optically clear so that the paint underneath is not being clouded in any way, well then this product will be the talk on ALL the forums and everyone will know about it in about 24 hours.
(If you hang out on detailing forums). :D





With NXT 2.0 is it still recommended to put the #21 on top or as a up keep coat at say a week later? Or should the NXT 2.0 spray be put on a week or two later?


You don't have to top NXT or any of our waxes or paint sealants with another one of our waxes and paint sealants.

NXT And M21 are kissing cousins with the primary difference being M21 is formulated to perform well when used with a rotary buffer where dramatically more heat can be generated during application.

Is it a wax? Or a paint sealant? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28676)

(Just to note, it's not a good idea in general to apply waxes with a rotary buffer if the goal is a swirl-free, flawless finish but we make our Professional Line products like this because that's how waxes are applied in the Production Detailing industry where speed is usually more important than true swirl-free finishes.)

You can maintain your car's finish no matter which Meguiar's wax or paint sealant you use by using ANY of our spray-on waxes including our new Ultimate Quik Wax.



I got a cordless 4" polisher that seems to do a good application and removal of the NXT. It's always good to find out how to do the job better.


As long as you apply a thin coat, allow it to fully dry before removing and use a soft, fluffy bonnet on your polisher, NXT should wipe off very easily.

How to tell if wax is dry and ready to remove...

The Swipe Test (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2166)


:xyxthumbs

Bruclee
Mar 16th, 2009, 07:47 PM
Thanks Mike, I might check to see if my car needs to be Clayed before I put on wax this spring. Alberta has a cold winter and it gets fairly dry too. Winter can have a warm dry wind called a Chinook, it can turn a very cold day into a warm one in hours.

mb911
Mar 17th, 2009, 10:02 PM
May I be reminded what Meguiar's Pure Waxes are?

Is my list complete?

#26 Hi Tech Yellow Wax
#16 Wax

and that Step #3 carnauba liquid wax?

Is that right? Thanks!!

I suppose in a way Ultimate Quick Wax is also a pure wax? in that surely it doesn't clean/remove away your good wax on there.

akimel
Mar 18th, 2009, 04:39 AM
May I be reminded what Meguiar's Pure Waxes are?

Is my list complete?

#26 Hi Tech Yellow Wax
#16 Wax

and that Step #3 carnauba liquid wax?

Is that right? Thanks!!

I suppose in a way Ultimate Quick Wax is also a pure wax? in that surely it doesn't clean/remove away your good wax on there.

Mb911, you may find this article helpful: What are the differences between Meguiar's waxes? (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3117)

In addition to the pure waxes you have already mentioned, you should add NXT and M21, as neither has the ability to remove paint, though both have very light cleaners to aid in application and adhesion.

This article describes Gold Class as a polish/wax, because of the conditioning oils it contains. Perhaps it should be considered akin to a pure wax, in that it does not, as far as I know, have the ability to abrade and clean paint. I am tempted to say that all of Meguiar's waxes are "pure waxes," except those that expressly formulated to clean paint--i.e., Cleaner Wax, ColorX, M20, M06, M66, and D151.

As always, I welcome correction. :)

mb911
Mar 18th, 2009, 06:42 AM
I guess I was trying to find "pure" waxes in the sense they are more layerable, as discussed in this thread.

I think with NXT and Gold Class there might be more risk of removing some old wax. No, they aren't cleaner waxes, but like you mentioned, I believe they have some very mild cleaners to help with the application of wax, since they know many of these users won't prep the paint as we do.

The other waxes that sound to be nothing but wax, in theory, should layer better. I wanted to make sure I had my list correct. Thanks, for helping me look at this a different way.

JOCKTHEGLIDE
Jul 23rd, 2009, 05:15 AM
Yes. Technically you only need to apply one application of wax or paint sealant as long as;


The surface is clean and ready for sealing with a wax or paint sealant.
The person applying the product does a great job over applying and working in a thin, even layer over each square inch of paint.
The recommendation for 2 applications is to,


Insure uniform coverage
Insure uniform appearance


So as long as you're cleaning and prepping the paint correctly before waxing, and as long as you're doing a great job of applying the first coat, you technically don't have to apply a second coat. If you're unsure of your how thoroughly you apply the first coat, then you can as an option apply a second coat and the idea is that through the application of the second coat every square inch of paint will have been adequately had wax applied and dried to it.

One coat if you're doing a great job of applying the product, two coats as an insurance policy to insure uniform coverage over all the paint.





This information in this thread is for the most part timeless and applies to most all products when it comes to the topic of layering. When a product comes out where the average end-user can can truly layer a product where with each layer a measurable increase in thickness occurs, and the layer they're creating is not opaque, that is it is 100% optically clear so that the paint underneath is not being clouded in any way, well then this product will be the talk on ALL the forums and everyone will know about it in about 24 hours.
(If you hang out on detailing forums). :D





You don't have to top NXT or any of our waxes or paint sealants with another one of our waxes and paint sealants.



:xyxthumbs

man that right there saved me like a week Ill tell before I came to the forums here I used to layer like no other serioulsy folks I would take a week to wax my car thorughly at another car forum they suggested this every time I wax.
-wash car
-clay
-a specific polish wax
-cleaner wax afterwards
-scratch remover wax
-lay the first protectant wax on car
-layer another protectant wax on car
-put a acrylic seal on car (you guys know this well pretty well but wont mention names they claim layiner this will outshine anything
-put the same acrylic seal on car upt o 7 times with at least 6 hour wait in between I usually did 3 of these
-then for the outmost shine you then put on a carnuba pure wax (you guys know this one also comes in that makeup looking thing with foam thingy costs like 30 bucks)
-then your done!!! if you want put another another spray sealant acrylic wax to top off the carnuba wax

seriously this is what I did to my car until I came on the boards now for a year I believe after PM mike back and forth and asking questions I know just clay and wax and my car looks just as good as with all the stuff I did to it before on occasion I put on scratch remover when I see a scratch i dont like and rewax it.

EPHIOS
Dec 20th, 2009, 08:14 AM
I tried this before with NXT TechWax 2.0 and Mothers SynWax, but I prefer one (1) layer of wax or sealant on my paint. You really won't get any better, if you apply a second coat (sometimes it gets cloudier).

hemi
Jan 20th, 2010, 01:19 PM
If Maguiars NSX is basicly near 100 percent reflection after 2 coats,why do products like Zaino say that the more coats you install the reflection increases with multiple coats?

DejaVu
Feb 6th, 2010, 08:58 PM
If Maguiars NSX is basicly near 100 percent reflection after 2 coats,why do products like Zaino say that the more coats you install the reflection increases with multiple coats?

because if they didn't say that, there'd be no zaino zombies.

Final Touch
Apr 22nd, 2010, 02:28 AM
Quick question and I apologise if it has been asked a 100 times before, Interesting thread BTW.
If I'm looking at layering wax on customers cars and have the benefit of having them in the shop for a couple of days. Is there any benefit to leaving the wax on for an extended period before buffing off or is it a case of swipe test pass = removal time?
How about on Synthetic sealants?
I'm looking at 2 layers of Synthetic followed by 2 layers of High Tech. Yes partly for the marketing factor but also hoping that there might be a benefit even if it isn't so visual at that point in time.

akimel
Apr 22nd, 2010, 05:41 AM
No, there is no benefit to leaving Meguiar's sealants or carnauba waxes on a car longer than it needs to dry properly (whatever that time is). The swipe test should see you through.

JOCKTHEGLIDE
May 16th, 2010, 11:10 AM
If Maguiars NSX is basicly near 100 percent reflection after 2 coats,why do products like Zaino say that the more coats you install the reflection increases with multiple coats?

as someone mentioned because there would no zaino zombies. I used to be one of those guys until I started PMing mike phillips on how to wax. Mike told me one important that really stands. If you think layering that wax does something try layinger one side of the hood first then compare to the other non layered side. I did this and I didnt see no difference. I used to be a zombie. I used to layer 10 layers of some specific product because guess what they told me, "layering multiple layers up to 10 enhances gloss" I was not the only one that did this either at another forum many members did the same thing.

Bruclee
May 16th, 2010, 08:01 PM
Usually it doesn't make any difference after the second coat, the second is to catch some missed or slighly less spots in the wax. The real problem is how to get the wax off the place you don't want it, like rubber around the windows and in the cracks between doors and body etc.

searle
May 20th, 2010, 05:23 PM
I posted "non-layerikng" details in a much earlier thread (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=393777&postcount=9), but the details are worth repeating here since most folks simply do not understand ...
Most folks have no idea how thin a layer of wax is actually left on the car, almost all the applied wax is wiped off (wasted, and requiring extra effort). An optional second coat is just to ensure coverage, not extra depth (regardless of what other products claim).

"FinstP" did detailed scientific measurements in applying and layering wax and reported the results in "DetailingWorld" http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=127943. Many posts/pages of tests, results, and discussions, give it a read.

The quick summary is that regardless of how many coats of wax are applied, simply buffing quickly resulted in a consistent 5.6nm layer of final wax coating. Note that 10 nanometres (nm) is 1/100th of a micron. One micron is roughly 1/80th of the thickness of a human hair, so 10nm is roughly 1/800th of the thickness of a human hair.

It is truly amazing how thin a layer is actually left (pay attention when Meguiars says to apply a THIN coat), but what wonders that thin layer provides.

Bruclee
May 20th, 2010, 05:50 PM
As a former night time Janitor I know You can get depth if it's in regards to floor waxing. Depth is real nice but only if the wax is clear and goes on properly. How ever the more you put on the more you'll have to take off and the best wax job is all preperation. Sealing the tile and the tile being absolutely clean is essential. That applys to car's too of course. Claying the surface and getting it as smooth and clean as possible is going to help when waxing. A polishing or scratch removal after the claying is usually suggested and once the car's paint is in the very best condition you can get it that's when wax comes to keep it that way.