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Mike Phillips
May 28th, 2008, 11:09 AM
Any wax that works fills to some degree (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24287)

The topic of waxes and filling comes up often enough that it deserves it's own thread in Hot Topics to help remove any confusion. Most of the confusion can be found on other forums where someone is trying to make the case that any wax that fill is a bad thing.

That's convoluted thinking and it would be interesting to see how someone could explain how a wax or a paint sealant can leave its protection ingredients behind on the surface and not fill or coat over at the same time?

You see, any wax or paint sealant that works, that is any wax or paint sealant that leaves itself behind to protect the paint, (and isn't that the purpose of wax or a paint sealant, to leave itself behind?), is going to fill, (at least to some level), because it's coating over and bonding or adhering to the paint.

This being true, and so far no one has ever proved it's not true, then if a wax or paint sealant is really working then it's filling to some degree because it's leaving itself behind on the surface and thus coating over the surface and filling in low areas.

Conversely, any wax or paint sealant that's not leaving itself behind is not filling and thus it's not working and if this is the case it's time to quit using that product and move on to a product that's actually working.



"Any wax that works fills to some degree"


That doesn't mean the purpose of a wax is to fill as the purpose of a quality wax or paint sealant is to protect, filling is just a physical characteristic of how it protects.

Anytime you find yourself on another forum and someone is trying to convince you or others that a wax that fills is a bad thing, then share the link to this thread with them and see if they can make their case that what is written here is wrong. In other words see if they can make the case that a wax or paint sealant that doesn't leave itself behind is actually working, that is it's actually doing what it's supposed to be doing.


Hope this clears up any confusion...

:xyxthumbs

TH0001
May 28th, 2008, 12:22 PM
All I know is that some sealants seem to amplify defects (Klasse, Werkstatt and Zaino come to mind) and given that all three dramatically increase the slickness and dramatically increase water beading (surface tension) for several months (which proves that they are there) I don't know if I would agree with your post Mike.

Perhaps our definition of filling is different. Techanically anywax or sealant will fill the paint (in terms of linking or anchoring into the pours of the paint) but I am refering to "masking" or hiding light defects in the paint. In terms of this defintion I can easily say from experience that the sealants I mentioned above amplify defects and make then easier to spot, but are absolutly leaving something behind.

I have noticed slight filling from sealants with a heavy oil based sealant and carnauba waxes, but on products such as these the durability falls off considerably.

NXT, for example, definetly fills and masks defects (I believe it uses oils and kalinon clay) and I think that is a great thing. However, NXT (and NXT 2.0) does not have near the durablity of the other sealants. Infact, I personally have yet to seen a sealant that masks defects have more then a month or two of durablity.

So when somebody says that products designed to fill can be a bad thing, in my experience, they would be talking about the shortened durablity.

Mike Phillips
May 28th, 2008, 12:27 PM
All I know is that some sealants seem to amplify defects (Klasse, Werkstatt and Zaino come to mind) and given that all three dramatically increase the slickness and dramatically increase water beading (surface tension) for several months (which proves that they are there) I don't know if I would agree with your post Mike.



Well maybe we can agree that some waxes don't fill very well or another way of saying this is the coatings they leave behind aren't very thick?

I've actually found Klasse SG to mask swirls pretty well. Haven't tried the Werkstatt product. If layering were possible, then Zaino should be masking swirls really well after a few layers, that is if it's actually building up a layer.

Edit: In thinking about previous experience and experimenting on clear coated black paint, I found a couple coats of the Z2 product to mask swirls pretty good too.

yalerd
May 28th, 2008, 12:42 PM
or another way of saying this is the coatings they leave behind aren't very thick?

Mike seeing it on this perspective, then is the durability of a wax and this physical characteristic of filling to some degree go by the hand?

Did I ask it correctly?:hm1

Mike Phillips
May 28th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Mike seeing it on this perspective, then is the durability of a wax and this physical characteristic of filling to some degree go by the hand?

Did I ask it correctly?:hm1

Machine application of a wax tends to do a better job of laying down a thin layer of wax but whether by hand or machine the goal when appling a wax or paint sealant is to lay down a thin coating this being true it shouldn't matter how the wax is applied.

Did that answer your question?

RaskyR1
May 28th, 2008, 01:14 PM
All I know is that some sealants seem to amplify defects (Klasse, Werkstatt and Zaino come to mind) and given that all three dramatically increase the slickness and dramatically increase water beading (surface tension) for several months (which proves that they are there) I don't know if I would agree with your post Mike.

Perhaps our definition of filling is different. Techanically anywax or sealant will fill the paint (in terms of linking or anchoring into the pours of the paint) but I am refering to "masking" or hiding light defects in the paint. In terms of this defintion I can easily say from experience that the sealants I mentioned above amplify defects and make then easier to spot, but are absolutly leaving something behind.

I have noticed slight filling from sealants with a heavy oil based sealant and carnauba waxes, but on products such as these the durability falls off considerably.

NXT, for example, definetly fills and masks defects (I believe it uses oils and kalinon clay) and I think that is a great thing. However, NXT (and NXT 2.0) does not have near the durablity of the other sealants. Infact, I personally have yet to seen a sealant that masks defects have more then a month or two of durablity.

So when somebody says that products designed to fill can be a bad thing, in my experience, they would be talking about the shortened durablity.

Would you rather have a wax that amplifies the defects or hides them? If your not going to take the time to remove the defects in the paint than I would asume you would want a wax that can make the paint look it's best...not one that points out it's flaws.:confused:

Quote from Zaino...
And we guarantee that it's been worth the wait. Z-5 PRO represents the summit of modern paint care and protection technology, and boasts more shine, more gloss, more depth, more clarity, greater reflectivity, and improved swirl-hiding properties. All of which deliver increased performance over our already incredible Z-5 Show Car Polish.



Nice write up Mike! :xyxthumbs

Ryan L.
May 28th, 2008, 01:35 PM
So if the wax "fills to some degree" then a car with more swirls (more things to fill) will actually accept that wax better than a swirl free car? I know that the wax should adhere but does there come a point in time were a car is so smooth with nothing to fill in that you just spreading the liquid across the paint?

Ryan

RaskyR1
May 28th, 2008, 01:39 PM
So if the wax "fills to some degree" then a car with more swirls (more things to fill) will actually accept that wax better than a swirl free car? I know that the wax should adhere but does there come a point in time were a car is so smooth with nothing to fill in that you just spreading the liquid across the paint?

Ryan

Have you even seen paint under a magnifying glass? Trust me it's not smooth even though it may feel that way! :bigups

Mike Phillips
May 28th, 2008, 01:45 PM
So when somebody says that products designed to fill can be a bad thing, in my experience, they would be talking about the shortened durability.

That could be, what I noticed is there's just a lot of confusion on this topic, (and I know because the topic comes up enough to create this article and post it to "Hot Topics"), and some of the confusion leaves people thinking that somehow a wax or paint sealant is supposed to protect the paint but somehow not leave anything on the surface which is kind of impossible.

That could be because many posts or replies by people are short snippets instead of in-depth explanations of the idea they're trying to get across. You do a really good job of typing well-thought out posts but my guess is you would agree that most people on discussion forums tend to be shorty copy writers versus long copy writers not that long copy is a good thing but a thorough explanation of an idea, opinion or concept is valuable to the reader trying to gather information.

:)

TH0001
May 28th, 2008, 03:05 PM
That could be, what I noticed is there's just a lot of confusion on this topic, (and I know because the topic comes up enough to create this article and post it to "Hot Topics"), and some of the confusion leaves people thinking that somehow a wax or paint sealant is supposed to protect the paint but somehow not leave anything on the surface which is kind of impossible.

That could be because many posts or replies by people are short snippets instead of in-depth explanations of the idea they're trying to get across. You do a really good job of typing well-thought out posts but my guess is you would agree that most people on discussion forums tend to be shorty copy writers versus long copy writers not that long copy is a good thing but a thorough explanation of an idea, opinion or concept is valuable to the reader trying to gather information.

:)

I would say that most information that people type isn't based on experience but rather like "Chinese Telephone" where somebody elses opinion is stated as fact, over and over (each time changing a little) till a bunch of people believe something that they have never experienced.

FWIW I would always choose a product that fills over one that doesn't if durability is the same.

TH0001
May 28th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Would you rather have a wax that amplifies the defects or hides them? If your not going to take the time to remove the defects in the paint than I would asume you would want a wax that can make the paint look it's best...not one that points out it's flaws.:confused:

Quote from Zaino...
And we guarantee that it's been worth the wait. Z-5 PRO represents the summit of modern paint care and protection technology, and boasts more shine, more gloss, more depth, more clarity, greater reflectivity, and improved swirl-hiding properties. All of which deliver increased performance over our already incredible Z-5 Show Car Polish.



Nice write up Mike! :xyxthumbs

I personally think you tend to get a different look with certain products that some people may or may not enjoy. I love the look and durability of Zaino, but amongst the professional detailers whom I speak to regularly that use it, we laugh because it is one of those products that will show how well you can actually polish a paint job.

I have never seen any filling/masking from Z5pro, despite the marketing. I try my best to go on experience. In being very general, clearer and brighter sealants tend to show more defects (or amplify ones that are there).

Mike Phillips
May 28th, 2008, 03:10 PM
I would say that most information that people type isn't based on experience but rather like "Chinese Telephone" where somebody else's opinion is stated as fact, over and over (each time changing a little) till a bunch of people believe something that they have never experienced.


Good observation... how about a new term...

"Copy & Paste Expert"

Not a hands-on expert, but a person with the ability to search, copy and paste on-the-fly, (without giving credit to the OP).

Or

"Professional Paraphraser"


:laughing2

yalerd
May 28th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Machine application of a wax tends to do a better job of laying down a thin layer of wax but whether by hand or machine the goal when appling a wax or paint sealant is to lay down a thin coating this being true it shouldn't matter how the wax is applied.

Did that answer your question?

No.

What I mean is you said that because of a physical characteristic of the wax to leave itself behind and because of this it fills to some degree then is the durability of the wax and how much of itself is left behind go hand to hand, like they are together.

For Example, NXT 2.0 is one of the most durable waxes of Meguiar's, so does this means that because of the durability of it this fills to some degree more than other waxes? More durable more fill?

I really don't want to take this off topic or confuse, it's not my intention but just go curious about it.

Anyways this is what I'm trying to say, I don't know if I'm making myself clear

Michael Stoops
May 28th, 2008, 08:22 PM
TH0001, your observations with Zaino highlighting minor defects is interesting since it is, as has been pointed out, completely opposite of their own marketing. There are several places on Zaino's website where they tout the benefits of their products defect hiding ability.

"Thanks to its advanced, non-abrasive, micro-filler polymer technology, Z-5 PRO fills and hides minor surface imperfections even better than before "

This is nothing more than an observation and we certainly have no reason to doubt what you're saying. It's just interesting that your real world observations run contrary to the manufacturers repeated claims.



No.

What I mean is you said that because of a physical characteristic of the wax to leave itself behind and because of this it fills to some degree then is the durability of the wax and how much of itself is left behind go hand to hand, like they are together.

For Example, NXT 2.0 is one of the most durable waxes of Meguiar's, so does this means that because of the durability of it this fills to some degree more than other waxes? More durable more fill?

I really don't want to take this off topic or confuse, it's not my intention but just go curious about it.

Anyways this is what I'm trying to say, I don't know if I'm making myself clear
It sounds like you're asking "does increased filling ability go hand in hand with longevity?", right? Certainly some waxes/sealants are more effective at hiding (filling) defects than others are; just as some waxes/sealants last longer than others do. But do the properties that offer a longer life also contribute to more effective defect concealment? The reality is most likely - it depends. In some cases they likely do, in others probably not.

Consider the glazes so often used by body shops to conceal buffer trails after a fresh paint job. Many of these do an incredible job of filling/concealing defects but they don't last long at all. While these glazes certainly don't fall into the same category as waxes/sealants since they offer no protection, they certainly show that hiding ability and longevity do not necessarily go hand in hand.

yalerd
May 29th, 2008, 05:42 AM
It sounds like you're asking "does increased filling ability go hand in hand with longevity?", right?
This is what exactly I was to ask. Thanks Mike


Consider the glazes so often used by body shops to conceal buffer trails after a fresh paint job. Many of these do an incredible job of filling/concealing defects but they don't last long at all. While these glazes certainly don't fall into the same category as waxes/sealants since they offer no protection, they certainly show that hiding ability and longevity do not necessarily go hand in hand.
When I ask the question I wasn't thinking on glazes, just focused on waxes but know that you mention glazes then I guess in some cases they go hand in hand and some times they don't

Mike thanks :bigups

3Fitty
May 29th, 2008, 06:13 AM
TH001,

I have a question about your first response. Are you suggesting that there is some correlation between "filling" and long term durability?

I'm not sure I'm reading it right (and maybe I'm not), but is it your feeling that a product like Z5 Pro will actually amplify minor defects but excells in long term durabilty over a product like NXT 2.0, which does a better job at masking imperfections at the expense of long term durability?

If so, what would be your reasoning for the offset?

dvtldav
May 29th, 2008, 07:20 AM
Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

Mike Phillips
May 29th, 2008, 07:39 AM
And just to point out, the original reason for this thread was to point out that if a wax or paint sealant is really working it's leaving something, (protection ingredients), behind on the surface to actually protect the paint and that's a good thing because that's the entire idea behind applying the product in the first place.

For some reason, some people get confused by thinking that if a wax fills in minor surface imperfections that's somehow a bad thing. Somehow the idea that coating over or leaving behind a layer of protection does the same thing as filling it's just the words paint different pictures in people's minds. If something leaves a layer of protection on the surface, by it's very nature it's filling because it's coating over the surface.

You cannot leave a coating or layer of protection on a painted surface without filling also taking place.

Anyway, that was the purpose of this thread, to explain this concept so whenever this topic comes up in another thread on the forum a link to this thread can be shared to explain this idea and remove the confusion.

Kind of like when explaining that in order to remove swirls and scratches you need to remove a little paint and in an effort to explain this concept we can include a link to this thread,

What it means to remove a scratch out of anything... (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7228)

As some people that are new to detailing don't understand that the way you remove a scratch or swirls out of paint is to remove a little paint surrounding the swirls and scratches.

:)

3Fitty
May 29th, 2008, 07:47 AM
Mike,

But what TH0001 seems to be saying is that a product like Z5 has NO filling effect yet provides protection (which seems to be exactly at odds with what you are saying). From a purely logical standpoint, what you are saying makes complete sense to me. The entire reason for waxing is to leave some type of protective coating behind (ie: some degree of filling). Plus, in my mind this would be a bonus in terms of overall appearance, no?

In response to this, I assume (and according to the Zaino website) their products have "perfect optical clarity" which I assume means "protection without fillers". I've been around the block enough times to know marketting, so I'm not saying I'm buying any of it, just pointing out what appears to be the apparent discrepancy.

And like DV wrote... although I raised the "long term durability" in another thread with regards to NXT 2.0. I tend to agree... in the summer months I would like to wax my car every third day (please tell me it's okay).

Mike Phillips
May 29th, 2008, 07:59 AM
Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

You make a great point and a point that is often glossed over.. (Really bad pun, sorry... couldn't help it) :)


The best way to maintain a show car finish on a car that is a daily driver is to do 'something' to it often, that could be washing, using a quick detailer, or applying a fresh coat of wax, the point being that somehow the paint is being touched in a way that restores the finish quality to it's maximum potential and/or the previously attained appearance plateau.

This is just a guess by me based upon my experience in the car world in the real world and the car world in the cyber world but the demographic of people that do their own detailing and hang out on discussion forums and talk, argue and debate the topic of durability tend to "do something" often to their car's paint, at least to their toys, maybe not the daily driver Ford Taurus or Chevy Astro Van.

The people that just wash and wax their car once a year and look at their car as a means of transportation and not an extension of their personality are the type that are looking for the most durable wax they think they can find because they're not into cars and not into detailing them. These people are probably looking for products that claim to last for year and will bead water even after 52 car washes. :)

Not usually our type of demographic customer nor the market the other web-based wax companies are catering to. So your point is correct, for the online serious enthusiasts, durability is less of an issue than it is to Joe Consumer because they're going to 'do something' to the paint often enough that it's more about creating beauty and maintaining the beauty as this is going to showcase the design of their car than it is about having a product that will stay on the surface for long periods of time with the hope and idea this product will prevent a bird dropping from etching the paint when in fact a bird dropping will likely eat past any type of wax or paint sealant in a matter of minutes and etch the paint even if the wax or paint sealant was applied yesterday.

Make sense? Hope so, that took a few minutes to think out and type up.

:laughing

Mike Phillips
May 29th, 2008, 08:10 AM
Mike,

But what TH0001 seems to be saying is that a product like Z5 has NO filling effect yet provides protection (which seems to be exactly at odds with what you are saying).

I have not used the Z5 enough to have a valid opinion on how the product performs, sorry. The information available for this product states that it can fill and hide minor imperfections as well as protect the paint. Todd's entitled to his opinion and I'm sure it's based upon his use of the product so that's his experience, other people might have a different experience and thus a different opinion.

Hypothetically, if the Z5 or any product is leaving something behind on the surface, that is it's leaving a coating or layer of some type of substance on the surface then as I wrote in my first message, it's filling at least to some level. Now this level may not be discernible to the human eye because it's so minute but that has to do with whatever the characteristics of the substance in the product is.

Again, big picture is this thread was meant to clear up any confusion by people that think it's possible to have a wax or paint sealant that doesn't leave anything on the surface.

:)

RaskyR1
May 29th, 2008, 08:15 AM
I concur!

I have people ask me all the time what I recommend for a good wax that will last 6-12 months. I usually just say a synthetic sealant will offer the longest protection but that how long a wax/sealant lasts means nothing to me. I say I go for look, feel, and ease of application when chosing a wax since I wax my car every 2nd or 3rd wash. :bigups

yalerd
May 29th, 2008, 10:11 AM
Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

Nailed it for us enthusiast! :bigups

dvtldav
May 29th, 2008, 10:31 AM
To what Mike said about some people wanting a wax/sealant to protect for a year, they are also the people who are only going to pay $5 - $6 dollars for a can of wax because they think that a wax is a wax is a wax or they do not know any better. Six months ago I knew Meguiar's waxes were better than Turtle Wax, J Wax and some of the others, but I did not know how to properly prep my car for waxing. I started out at this forum and Mother's forum trying to find the best way to maintain my new car, now this is the only forum I go to because I have learned so much here that I figure going anyplace else is just a waste of time.

Dave

PorscheGuy997
May 29th, 2008, 10:56 AM
Here's my take on filling:

I could care less if a protectant fills to some degree as long as the protection is not compromised.

Why?

I always clean and polish the paint before applying the protectant. The swirls and other defects have already been removed, so there isn't a need for a filler.


Cleaners that contain fillers are a huge concern. The whole point of cleaning the paint is to remove the defect. If the cleaner is filling in the problems, then I'm, in a sense, cheating the customer.

TH0001
May 29th, 2008, 02:23 PM
Here's my take on filling:

I could care less if a protectant fills to some degree as long as the protection is not compromised.

Why?

I always clean and polish the paint before applying the protectant. The swirls and other defects have already been removed, so there isn't a need for a filler.


Cleaners that contain fillers are a huge concern. The whole point of cleaning the paint is to remove the defect. If the cleaner is filling in the problems, then I'm, in a sense, cheating the customer.

Kind of off topic but I have yet to use an abrasive that doesn't "fill" or mask defects slightly. This is a function of the carriers or lubricants used in the polish and a result of the microfine abrasion caused by the pad against the paint.

Mike Phillips
May 29th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Kind of off topic but I have yet to use an abrasive that doesn't "fill" or mask defects slightly. This is a function of the carriers or lubricants used in the polish and a result of the microfine abrasion caused by the pad against the paint.

Two things... no three things...

1) Let's insert these words just to tighten up the concept you've shared...

to lubricate the surface during the abrading process

Like this,



This is a function of the carriers or lubricants used in the polish to lubricate the surface during the abrading process and a result of the microfine abrasion caused by the pad against the paint.



2) Finally someone outside of Meguiar's got it right

3) Good insight!


Okay with this?

:)

MBZ 500E
May 29th, 2008, 03:59 PM
Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

This is so true. I think the only detailing nuts that really want durability are the ones that do it for a living and I'm sure it's only a few of their customers that really care about durability because they have their car detailed every 6 months.

I wax to enhance the paints finish and depth, protection just happens to be a good side affect.

Mosca
May 29th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I dunno. A few years ago I decided it didn't matter. Fill and no fill occupies an inordinate amount of some peoples' thoughts, IMO. What difference does it make? How do I know that my goals for my car's finish are the same as yours for your car? If the car looks great when I'm done, then I'm happy.

The whole deal comes down to: Maximize the finish, then maintain it with minimum touches. Once the finish is maximized, then "fill" and "no fill" have no meaning. There is only "shine" and "no shine".

Much ado about nothing, IMO. The people who argue this kind of thing are the same people who argue baserunning calls at a pickup softball game; they'd rather argue about minutiae than enjoy the fun.

Holden_Caulfield04
Jun 11th, 2008, 03:35 PM
Good observation... how about a new term...

"Copy & Paste Expert"

Not a hands-on expert, but a person with the ability to search, copy and paste on-the-fly, (without giving credit to the OP).

Or

"Professional Paraphraser"


:laughing2


Autopia has many members like this which is why it pays to examine who is providing advice. Professionals generally provide the best advice because they have the most experience but there are one or two amateurs/hobbyists there who know more than a thing or two.

It's actually kind of annoying because it can give false expectations. I will view a product or process a certain way because of information posted there and when it comes down to it, the actual experience is different. It may be better or it may be worse.

Mike Phillips
Feb 13th, 2009, 10:30 AM
:bump2