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View Full Version : '84 Formula badly oxidized, need help



70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 10:42 AM
I have tried several 3M products on the Maroon Paint and had no luck. Haven't started the white yet... I got some of the 91 and it just soaks into the paint and dries in seconds. I have to keep wetting the wool bonnet. Can't seem to get the gloss that I was looking for..
I'd post a pic but don't see where this can be done on the web page. Do you need a really wet bonnet to properly put the 91 on?
Man, the white spray will be everywhere... :D

Jokeman
Jun 25th, 2008, 11:57 AM
If 91 is anything like the 105 of the automotive line, it flashes FAST and has a very short work time.

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 12:02 PM
J-M,
Thankx... What is short work time? I'm talkin seconds.. Ya can't work anything over a sq ft. @ a time. It says to wipe off prior to dryin and by the time I put the buffer down and pick up my cloth.. It's dry.
and what can you expect after the buffing.. Just a polished look or full color? ...and How do ya post a pic? :D

Michael Stoops
Jun 25th, 2008, 12:15 PM
Are you trying to use M91 Power Cut Compound from our RV/Marine line on automotive paint? If so, please don't. It's designed for use on gel coat finishes, which are much harder and much thicker (several times thicker, actually) than automotive paint.

What are you working on? What kind of buffer are you using? You mention a wool bonnet which sounds more like you're using a large orbital buffer rather than a rotary (in which case you'd be using a wool pad, not a bonnet). If this is the case then you're likely using a machine that lacks the power to fully utilize a heavy cut cleaner or compound.

Can you please clarify for us what tool you're using, the paint you're working on (freshly sprayed or factory baked, age, etc?).

In order to post a picture you'll need to upload one or more to our gallery first, or you could just email them to me at mstoops@meguiars.com and I can help you out.

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Michael, Thankx
I'm using a Makita 7'' Electronic Sander-Polisher Model 9227C with a Porter Cable Polishing pad 54741 on an '84 Formula Thunderbird with original gelcoat.

RaskyR1
Jun 25th, 2008, 12:44 PM
lol....I thought you were talking about a Pontiac Firebird at first. :D

Michael Stoops
Jun 25th, 2008, 12:52 PM
lol....I thought you were talking about a Pontiac Firebird at first. :DThat was my first thought too - I had browsed into this discussion from the home page and didn't realize I was looking in the Marine/RV section so the red flags went up! Sorry 'bout that.

As for using M91, yes, it can be a bit dry so if the gel coat is heavily oxidized and/or very dry itself then you're best bet is to actually use more product than you're probably accustomed to using. Sort of the opposite of using M105 on a car where less is more, so to speak. Go a bit heavy with the 91 and see how that works for you.

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Yea, I forgot about the old Formulas... And here I thought I splained it perfectly too... :rolleyes:

Michael, sent you pics of the boat in an email.. I haven't gotten this attach thing down yet.. Don't know where I'm downloading to?? :confused:

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 01:33 PM
http://http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/10497/ppuser/19168
That didn't go so well.. Try again to post a pic

Michael Stoops
Jun 25th, 2008, 01:44 PM
OK, here's a shot of the boat:

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/Port_stern.jpg

Yep, that's some serious oxidation right there.Scottwax4


Frank, what speed are you running the Makita at? How much pressure are you applying when working it?

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Started @900 and it dried out so fast I moved it down to 600 and started wetting down the bonnet.
and..... light to medium pressure.. Like I would normally use.
I think I did go heavy with the 91 Michael..
I "X'd" the polisher wool pad with 91 - that's a lot..

Mike Phillips
Jun 25th, 2008, 04:02 PM
That gel-coat is crying out for a compound with a heavy concentration of our polishing oils.

See if you can find a bottle of this where you buy your Marine polishes and compounds.

Color Restorer (http://www.meguiars.com/?boat-cleaners-compounds/Color-Restorer)

You can apply this with a wool pad on a rotary buffer and it should cut the oxidation and bring the color back.

:)

Mike Phillips
Jun 25th, 2008, 04:02 PM
If you have some M80 Speed Glaze, might test that too...


:)

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 06:19 PM
On this side (Starboard, I used Penetrol to enrich the gelcoat and waxed the right side with the new ntx wax. I left the right side alone. The upper left corner is where I pealed the tape back to see the"Real Color" of the gelcoat.
The Penetrol is an oil based product and I don't know how it compares to the Restore from Meguiar. I did have some of the Restore but could not find it.
At the time I did use it, I can't remember anything coming of it...
The left section still doesn't have that "Polished" look, but it may be the best I can get out of this ole gelcoat.. :confused:http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/Stern_starboard.jpg

70olds442
Jun 25th, 2008, 06:34 PM
On this side (Port/Stern) I used the 91 and my Makita @ 600 rpm. I used a substantial portion of the 32oz 91. To the left of the 91 in a circular pattern I put some Penetrol. It seems that the Penetrol enriches the gelcoat but I don't still don't get the high polish that I'd like.
Tomorrow I'll try the 91 over the Penetrol and see what that looks like.. Thankx all for listening, still open for suggestions..
Mike, I tried the Restorer a while back with unfavorable results.
This finish just may be "Toast"
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/Stern_port.jpg

Michael Stoops
Jun 25th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Frank, when I'm back in the office tomorrow I'll shoot an email to Ash Erickson - he's our resident gel coat/Marine Line guru and basically travels around the country teaching people how to clean, polish and restore gel coat finishes. Let's see what he has to say about this.

Tim Lingor
Jun 25th, 2008, 08:16 PM
On this side (Port/Stern) I used the 91 and my Makita @ 600 rpm. I used a substantial portion of the 32oz 91. To the left of the 91 in a circular pattern I put some Penetrol. It seems that the Penetrol enriches the gelcoat but I don't still don't get the high polish that I'd like.
Tomorrow I'll try the 91 over the Penetrol and see what that looks like.. Thankx all for listening, still open for suggestions..
Mike, I tried the Restorer a while back with unfavorable results.
This finish just may be "Toast"
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/Stern_port.jpg

Hey,

Do you have any Meguiar's #3, #7 or #45 by chance? If so, take some M07 etc and apply it to a 2'x2' area and leave it sit for about 5 minutes or so. Then come back and spray a little #34 or Quik Detailer on the residue and then remove.

Now take the rotary with a wool pad and #49 Oxidation remover. Run the rotary at ~ 1000-1400 RPM. Work that area thoroughly until the compound is a light residue and then remove. Follow again with M45 and a W-8006 Polishing Pad and top with Flagship Marine Wax.

Let me know if that does the trick. If so, you will need to duplicate thoses steps for the whole boat.

Tim

70olds442
Jun 26th, 2008, 11:28 AM
Thankx all for the posts... I'll be trying stuff and will get back here with the results.. Thankx again... :xyxthumbs

Michael Stoops
Jun 26th, 2008, 12:51 PM
OK, I just spoke to our resident gel coat expert and trainer, Ash Erickson, and his take is basically this:

Step down to our M67 One Step Compound and give it a few passes. That should be able to get you to the level you see on the left side of your image shown below (after 3 or 4 passes remember):
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/Stern_starboard.jpg

You can probably get to that appearance faster with the 3M products, but because of their composition the resulting appearance won't last long at all. In fact, a quick wipe down with something like Windex would take it back to almost your starting point! Fast results, short term duration. Probably not what you're after. M67 One Step Compound will ultimately get you there too, and the resulting finish will last longer. But Ash believes you won't get any further than what you see above simply by buffing/polishing.

Ash said that even a heavy application of a pure polish like M07 will just get sucked into the gel coat and not really accomplish a whole lot. His initial reaction upon seeing the photos - "yeah, that gel is about as bad as it gets". Bad as that sounds, he's seen the close up of the original color underneath that tape stripe and is confident that you can achieve that color again - but only by wetsanding to remove all the dead gel on top. Of course you'd need to go back over with the rotary, but he's seen it done time and time again. Frank, you made a comment...
The left section still doesn't have that "Polished" look, but it may be the best I can get out of this ole gelcoat and Ash very much agrees with that statement, unless you wetsand.

Just a note about the M91 Power Cut Compound: even though it is our heaviest cut product for gel coat finishes, it doesn't play well with gel that is extremely dried out. Basically you're trying to work a very dry compound against a very dry surface and the combination just is not optimal. The comments Mike and Tim have been making regarding the use of pure polishes to nourish the finish and introduce some of those oils is valid, but this gel coat is just too far gone for even that to make a huge difference.

Mike Phillips
Jun 26th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Ash said that even a heavy application of a pure polish like M07 will just get sucked into the gel coat and not really accomplish a whole lot.



The idea was to apply the pure polish AFTER removing the heavy oxidation.

The idea or goal here is after compounding and removing the dead, oxidized gel-coat is to apply a pure polish and let it penetrate or as you wrote, get sucked into the gel-coat.


If the gel-coat is not so far gone that it cannot be saved then it is the application of the pure polish after cleaning that will restore the richness of color to the original pigments used in the gel-coat and that will help to stave off future oxidation by filling in any imperfections in the gel-coat, (polyester resin), so that water cannot get into these imperfections and cause oxidation. Then of course seal the surface with a quality coating of a wax or sealant as our pure polishes are water soluble.

You could use M45 to be technically correct, sometimes we understand that our customers might already have an automotive pure polish in their arsenal and it's perfectly okay to test one of these for the purpose of checking to see if it helps.

Applying a pure polish after first cleaning the surface is the most you can do to try to revive a neglected gel-coat. Some people want to try anything they can to restore and preserve a neglected finish because sometimes there are no other options, or at least viable option. Just to point out, I've worked on a lot of gel-coats in my life as well as single stage paints and one thing I've learned is...

"You don't know what you can do until you try"


Just to note...
Applying a pure polish after first cleaning the surface is what Meguiar's has been teaching when it comes to gel-coat finishes and single stage paints for as long as we've been making pure polishes. We always state that applying a pure polish is an "Optional Step", you don't have to do it. Our demographic customer base trends towards the type of people that want the best results from their time, money and efforts and are willing to do an optional step like applying a pure polish to gain even better results.

Hope that helps explain it a little deeper.


:)

Tim Lingor
Jun 26th, 2008, 02:50 PM
The idea was to apply the pure polish AFTER removing the heavy oxidation.

The idea or goal here is after compounding and removing the dead, oxidized gel-coat is to apply a pure polish and let it penetrate or as you wrote, get sucked into the gel-coat.


If the gel-coat is not so far gone that it cannot be saved then it is the application of the pure polish after cleaning that will restore the richness of color to the original pigments used in the gel-coat and that will help to stave off future oxidation by filling in any imperfections in the gel-coat, (polyester resin), so that water cannot get into these imperfections and cause oxidation. Then of course seal the surface with a quality coating of a wax or sealant as our pure polishes are water soluble.

You could use M45 to be technically correct, sometimes we understand that our customers might already have an automotive pure polish in their arsenal and it's perfectly okay to test one of these for the purpose of checking to see if it helps.

Applying a pure polish after first cleaning the surface is the most you can do to try to revive a neglected gel-coat. Some people want to try anything they can to restore and preserve a neglected finish because sometimes there are no other options, or at least viable option. Just to point out, I've worked on a lot of gel-coats in my life and one thing I've learned is...

"You don't know what you can do until you try"


Just to note...
Using a pure polish after first cleaning the surface is what Meguiar's has been teaching when it comes to gel-coat finishes and single stage paints for as long as we've been making pure polishes. We always state that applying a pure polish is an "Optional Step", you don't have to do it. Our demographic customer base trends towards the type of people that want the best results from their time, money and efforts and are willing to do an optional step like applying a pure polish to gain even better results.

Hope that helps explain it a little deeper.


:)

Exactly! That is why I said, use M07 or M45, remove, then compound and then M45 or M07 again, then wax.

Using the M45 or M07 as the first step is only to provide additional oils to the finish in order in making the compounding step much easier. Taking a compound directly to that oxidation will cause the pad to gum up instantly and the polish to flash almost as fast and thereby using a great deal of product. It will work from my experience, but it will be difficult at first until the first heavy level of oxidation is removed.

Applying the M45, will allow you to buff the area for a longer amount of time. I have found that M49 will provide a decent amount of work time versus the amount of cut. M67 is also an excellent choice and something I use of a lot of, though finding it in stores may be more difficult than M49.

After the initial wipe off of M45, start the compounding which now should be much easier. Then coat again with M45 for the exact reason Mike Phillips stated above. This will help to restore the nutrients in the gel coat. Finally, apply your wax.

There are many ways to restore gel coats, and this is the one I mainly use.

Tim

70olds442
Jun 26th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Hey guys.. Thankx - Really!!!! I didn't get to work on it today and I will this weekend..
I feel overtechnicateed... Just kiddin.... Hey, I just made up a word... :D
I understand the thoughts of all of the above and will use them this weekend.. although... I may re-read them a couple more times....:nervous1
Addendum... Tim I gotcha.. Rejuice the color then, start workin on the shine.. :D

Mike Phillips
Jun 26th, 2008, 03:05 PM
Exactly! That is why I said, use M07 or M45, remove, then compound and then M45 or M07 again, then wax.



While using a pure polish or even a cleaner/polish before compounding is not a Meguiar's recommend procedure, it is a step that can be used to restore antique paint on classic cars. Gel-coat finishes react a lot like single stage paints as they tend to be more porous than clear coats and thus will react very well to the application of a pure polish.

It's an extra step to condition the paint before working on it, with the goal making the paint more workable in an effort to do everything you can to preserve original, antique paint which tends to become dry over the years.

These very early products by Meguiar's were not waxes but polishes.

Early Mirror Bright Auto Polish (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24576)
Another Early Mirror Bright Auto Polish (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24869)


They created beauty by penetrating into the paint to bring out the full richness of color and to fill any voids to prevent things that would attack and deteriorate paint by just being present in the paint. The same thing applies to oxidized and restored gel-coats.

It very well could be that the gel-coat finish on this boat is past the point of no return...

A little testing with a variety of products will let you know.


:)

70olds442
Jul 2nd, 2008, 12:49 PM
Back.... Will try the M45 prior to 91.. or


Exactly! That is why I said, use M07 or M45, remove, then compound and then M45 or M07 again, then wax.



Should I: 91 then 49 (Compound) then M45 again or just the 49?
I'll have to see how the 91 reacts after the M45, cause it's a bear like it is now...
On the "Not so oxidized areas" bow and grey top band, life is a little easier.. The 91 works and so does the 49..
Am taking pics as I go...
Man... Got a Meguairs 4000 wool pad and I have wool in my ears, nose, clothes, ground, cars, and surrounding trees... :chuckle1

70olds442
Jul 3rd, 2008, 06:13 AM
First off a couple of pics of feeble attempts at using the 91 and 49 respectively..

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/803/Formula_b.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/803/Formula_b1.jpg

Like you said Mike and Tim... the compounds flashed almost instantaneously.. Notice that I power washed prior to putting on the 91 and 49..

70olds442
Jul 3rd, 2008, 06:24 AM
At this stage I pretty much didn't think too well of the 91 as you may have expected..
Then I tried to lubricate the powdered finish prior to using the 91 and 49.... I found that using the 49 prior to the 91, I had "clouds forming in the paint.. Faint lighter spots that appeared as though clouds were there.
When I used the 91 then the 49, much different... Very even color appearance...
It was here that I turned from a 3M man to a Meguiar's guy..
The results were outstanding....

















http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/803/FormulaA3.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/803/FormulaA1.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/803/FormulaA2.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/803/Formula_a3.jpg

Now to do the remainder.. The use of the M45 prior to the 91 worked great.. It gave me lots more work time and did the job it was suposed to do...:woot2:woot2

Thank you all for your help.... Ya'll have a great Fourth...

:bow:bow:bow:bow:bow

J. A. Michaels
Jul 3rd, 2008, 06:59 AM
That is a dramatic improvement. The boat looks 100 times better. Can hardly wait to see the whole boat finished. The left side looks great.

RaskyR1
Jul 3rd, 2008, 05:12 PM
Wow! That is turning out great! Excellent job! :xyxthumbs Scottwax4