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SeaRayOwner
Jul 30th, 2008, 12:32 AM
Ok folks I am stumped why is my beloved #45 doing this to me??

As I mentioned in this post:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25812

I used #49 with great success using a 7006 cutting pad with PC 7424. I proceeded with #45 and #63 during a early morning session (no halogen lights required).... tonight I was out doing more under halogen lights and I noticed that the area I just finished with did not look as good as I remember it the other morning.... so I begin testing. I go back over the area with #49 and sure enough there is improvement in how "crisp" the reflection is in the gel coat.

Why would #49 improve clarity over an area that was #49/7006 --> #45/8006 --> #63 9006???

I begin to test. I take #45 and 8006 to the area just completed with #49. Sure enough it produces a haze that reduces the clarity (crisp-ness) of the reflection in the gelcoat. Something is wrong as #45 has never let me down. I begin to think it may be contamination so I open a brand new 8006 pad, new bottle of #45 and new megs microfiber and try again. Sure enough it produces a haze again. The haze seems to worsen with each pass over the area. Ok... maybe the polisher is spitting out sand (impossible as I clean regularly) but... I try with a new high tech applicator.... same story.... #45 is making the surface worse..... I expected it to take my the gel coat after #49 up a level with all those great polishing oils :)

I have many years under my belt with the PC and #45.... it has worked flawlessly for me as seen here

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24513

I then tried to see if the #63 is also detracting from the surface... I try #63 of the an area only done with #49 no change other than deepening the shine (the wet look we all know and love)

So I am stumped guys.... why do you think the #45 could be doing this?

I knew you all would ask for pictures.... so here they are..... note that it is 1AM so the camera did it's best. :) I roped off an area with blue tape... the area had been #49'd only. I then took a piece of blue tape down the middle and did #45 over the #49 are on the left... as you can see from below the left is blurry.... the right is much more crisp.

Thanks everyone in advance for the help and your thoughts.

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/341765221_AqhVB-L.jpg

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/341765316_NFgUq-L.jpg

An additional note is that this only seems to be happening to the areas that I used #49 first.... as noted in the post above the same #45 bottle returned amazing clarity on the black portion of my hull but it did not need any compounding.

Mike Phillips
Jul 30th, 2008, 07:36 AM
Very strange indeed as M45 is very rich in polishing oil and from my understanding it's a pure polish, that is to say it's a non-abrasive polish, more akin to #3 or #7 than a cleaner/polish.

Do you have any other pure polishes you can troubleshoot with?

What happens when you hand apply M45 to a test section instead of machine apply?

I'm off today but will check back in later for your reply...


:)

SeaRayOwner
Jul 30th, 2008, 09:11 AM
Mike thanks for the quick reply I appreciate it. In the picture I actually did hand apply the #45 as I "roped" off a section a little too small to machine apply. I used a brand new high tech applicator. Your thoughts are along the same lines as mine.... this stuff is very light slippery stuff..... how in the world could it be marring the surface.

I do have #7 and #81 sitting on my car side of my detailing shelf. I will give those a try once the sun leaves the area I am working on.... darn it I need a big garage :)

Now that I have gotten a little sleep I am noticing the "problem" on only the area that I started with #49. Could it be that I did not get all of the dead (oxidized gel coat) off and the polish is exposing the bad stuff? Weird that is seems to get worse as I continue with #45.... I am stumped.

Lydia
Jul 30th, 2008, 01:03 PM
The polish shouldn't make any oxidized gel coat more obvious; it should do the opposite. That is really odd. These next two questions probably sound very stupid, but just to be sure....Are you sure you grabbed the right bottle and it's #45 you are using (back when I used to use Armorall, one time I accidentally grabbed the wheel cleaner instead of the vinyl protectant and sprayed it on my dash....I'm probably the only moron that would do that but just to be sure)? Also, could the boat possibly have gotten some sand or dirt blown onto it? I still don't see how either of those two would be possible seeing as how #45 seems to be working fine on it's own, but that's all I can think of...

SeaRayOwner
Jul 30th, 2008, 01:32 PM
From what I can tell the #49 took care of any oxidation. I understand you being sure.... I was using a bottle of #45 I have been using for a couple of weeks. I thought of possible contamination so I opened up a second bottle of #45 (brand new) just to be sure.... I keep 5-6 bottles on hand at all times. When I compound, polish, wax I begin each day (if section not finished from previous day with a wash and dry. I spray and wipe #34 final inspection on each section prior to beginning... and I always wipe away any polishing, compounding dust, each with a separate towel after each section. I never do any work if there is wind. When I setup for the picture I washed the area, dried, wipe with final inspection, then began. I cannot explain this which is why I turned to the board.

All wiping, removing product residue, etc is done with it's own towel. Meg MF of course.

kzyman13
Jul 30th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Hey there,
I had this same exact problem on a boat I did this last weekend and one that I had done prior.

I thought it was just me. Both boats would become clearer after touching up with the oxidation remover. I couldn't figure it out.

When doing the boat this weekend for my brother I ended up leaving the polish on due to the boat being so neglected. I figured it was better to have a hazy finish and provide oils to the surface.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that had this problem. I hand applied the polish once and applied with a cheap da the other time. I figured it was more due to me being a newb than a problem with the product.

SeaRayOwner
Jul 30th, 2008, 07:01 PM
Thank you for posting your experience. I assume by the exact same problem you are referring to the areas you compounded with #49 first then followed with #45? I have had outstanding results with #45 on surfaces that did not need compounding but the areas where #49 is followed by #45 are problematic.

Tonight I will be trying the following to see if I can get improvement after washing:

- Re-run #49 with 7006 --> #49 with 8006 --> #45 with 8006 --> Inspect

-Re-run #49 with 7006 --> #7 with 8006 --> Inspect

-Re-run #49 with 7006 --> #81 with 8006 --> Inspect

-Re-run #49 with 7006 --> #44 with 8006 --> #45 with 8006

I will different areas and record results with pictures.

SeaRayOwner
Jul 30th, 2008, 11:32 PM
hey all I will not get to further testing tonight (too tired) I will do this tomorrow. I would appreciate any further input anyone especially the folks @ megs have in regard to the problem I am experiencing. Thanks for the help.

Mike Phillips
Jul 31st, 2008, 08:36 AM
hey all I will not get to further testing tonight (too tired) I will do this tomorrow. I would appreciate any further input anyone especially the folks @ megs have in regard to the problem I am experiencing. Thanks for the help.

Please keep us posted, I'll try to find some answers.

We're going to have an extreme makeover at Meguiar's on an older gel-coat boat next week so maybe we can try to duplicate what you're experiencing.

What year is this boat you're working on?

Tentatively we're planning on working on this next week, it's a one owner 1976 Starline Deville

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/820/1976SilverLiner001.jpg


It has medium oxidation and staining from the water line down and light oxidation on the upper surfaces. This picture doesn't show the oxidation very well as it was so bright out when we took the photo but you can see where the finish is splotchy and where it's not.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/820/1976SilverLiner002.jpg

SeaRayOwner
Jul 31st, 2008, 09:36 AM
Mike thanks for the reply.. I am working on my own boat listed in my signature sorry that I did not specify.

That is a classic indeed.... you do not see many of those up this way.

Mike Phillips
Jul 31st, 2008, 10:19 AM
Mike thanks for the reply.. I am working on my own boat listed in my signature sorry that I did not specify.


:wall: :wall: :wall:

Sorry, after a day off I'm usually typing pretty fast and miss little things like that....




That is a classic indeed.... you do not see many of those up this way.

Hard to find boats from 1976 that aren't all thrashed... this thing still has the original carpet in it! I'll start my own thread as soon as I take possession of it, still waiting for the owner to have time to finalize our deal.

:)

SeaRayOwner
Jul 31st, 2008, 10:27 AM
no worries at all sir. Ah yes 1976 a great year indeed.

kzyman13
Jul 31st, 2008, 02:19 PM
[quote=SeaRayOwner;234126]Thank you for posting your experience. I assume by the exact same problem you are referring to the areas you compounded with #49 first then followed with #45? I have had outstanding results with #45 on surfaces that did not need compounding but the areas where #49 is followed by #45 are problematic.

/quote]

Yes, sorry I wasn't more specific. Both boats were heavily oxidized and required #49 first. I then followed with #45, which gave it a haze, and then Meguiars Marine Pure Wax... not sure what number #56? The 1st boat I did I redid the colored portion of the boat with #49 and skipped the polish the 2nd time, then added the wax. That restored the shininess as I'm sure I removed the polish. The 2nd boat I did, I left the polish on and it was hazy when I was done.

SeaRayOwner
Jul 31st, 2008, 02:33 PM
I am going to try a few things tonight and see what I can do... I take my boat out of service to get the detail stuff done... I need this to be done so I can put the boat back in the water and enjoy it. Very weird interaction between #49 followed by#45.

Did you use Megs pads for application? If so which ones? I am trying to draw a pattern if possible.

kzyman13
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:26 PM
1st time the polish was applied with a cheap DA and a generic applicator pad. 2nd boat I used a terry cloth to apply the polish. Both times I removed with a MF towel. Both had the same results. I think you are correct in saying that it has more to do with applying the 45 after the 49, even though they are supposed to compliment each other.

Maybe theres a bad batch of polish or 49? Where do you live?

SeaRayOwner
Jul 31st, 2008, 07:12 PM
I am in Folsom, California bought the #49 from West Marine. Funny thing is I was very surprised how nice the #49 left the surface. It was much better than I expected for a compound. I have completed the testing I mentioned and here are the results with pictures.

Each product was applied with it's own Megs High Tech Applicator wiped and then a second application was done followed by a wipe. Each area had it's own MF towel for wiping. No Wax was done during the test. The entire test area was hit with #49 wiped and then a second application and wiped before tape was applied.

Test Setup
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342881274_MsY6N-L.jpg

Here is the area in which I applied #44 then #45. This one yielded the worst results.
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342881486_ta4TH-L-1.jpg

Here is the application of #7
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342881697_nkeYP-L-1.jpg

Here is the application of #81
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342881874_W3z6K-L-1.jpg

Here is the application of #45
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342882070_EqHDG-L-1.jpg

Under the vertical strips of tape is only #49 I too some comparisons pics.

#49 only left #49, #44, #45 right
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342882350_CGYVM-L.jpg

#49, #7 left #49 only right
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342882702_4Emgj-L.jpg

#49, #81 left #49 only right
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342882779_j2CQW-L.jpg

#49, #45 left #49 only right
http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/342883226_P3FaY-L.jpg

To me it looks like the #45 over #49 gave the least amount of haze but it not as clear as the #49 by itself. So I pose the question to the experts here why? What is it about #49 first that make the polish perform so poorly. I need help on this one as right now I am considering doing #49 then going over with several thin coats of #63. I know there is something amiss I just cannot determine as I am following the same procedures as I do on other portions of the boat. The only difference in this area was that I used #49 to remove some light oxidation.

I have owned the boat since new and the areas that have not experienced any #49 respond extremely well to #45.

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/309983353_WbzPA-L.jpg

The boat is stored directly next to my home in a secured area and thus is not subjected to anything unknown other than dust falling from the sky. The area tested was washed (#65 and Megs Marine Wash mitt) and dried (Marine Water magnets) prior to beginning the test.

Is there any problems in #49 and going directly to #63? I would like to complete the surface care and get back to using the boat. Any and all help is appreciated.... as I need it. Thank you!!

Nappers
Jul 31st, 2008, 08:52 PM
I've read when removing heavy oxidization to Clay the paint then moving on to another step....When the oxidized paint (dead paint) is removed it exposes the good paint and the embedded contaminants......That was on an automobile, will it work on your boat? wouldn't hurt to try. There may be some contaminants in the paint from the 49 and the 45 is looking the way it is.

There is no harm from going straight to wax. I've seen others go from the new M105 to wax on auto's that is :D.

If the lights don't show swirls or marring from the 49, wax her up and take her out.

Awesome pictures for the side by side and products used, I was really able to see what was going on, strange indeed for the 45 to go hazy after 49.

Keep us updated and get some rest.

Aaron

SeaRayOwner
Jul 31st, 2008, 09:02 PM
Thanks for the nice comments and input sir... I was just out re-doing everything in #49.... and read the end of the bottle (for long lasting protection #56 or #63) :) Read the bottle Jeremy... haha... I do clay the boat before beginning the detail process.... I have actual pulled back some nice junk from the gel.... does not get as bad as the cars.... but detailing junk free is for me. Claying in between steps is an interesting thought. I may try that next time. Thanks for the idea. The #49 leaves no marring or light swirls at all.... I was really surprised. I was also surprised at the level in which the diminishing abrasives broke down.... after working the #49 well it feels like an oily polish residue left over.

As I mentioned I am going over the area I have ben working with with #49 one last time then I will proceed to several thing layers of #63.

Nappers
Jul 31st, 2008, 09:09 PM
I hope it goes great for you.

I would have thought the 45 would give you added shine as it is a polish, but go and wax her up and take her out.

The gloss on the final picture is nice indeed. I can't wait to buy a boat....someday!

Don't you love getting pictures of other people? :chuckle1

Aaron

SeaRayOwner
Jul 31st, 2008, 11:55 PM
Buying a boat was one of the best purchases I have ever made. Nothing shakes the stresses of life away like dropping in friday night.... waking up on the water Saturday, Sunday, and sometimes Monday too :)

I would have thought the same as the gloss in the final picture is just after #45. My wife is great and will help me on occasion. Thanks man I appreciate the positive feedback. I love floating up to the dock and having many people ask how I keep it so shinny.

kzyman13
Aug 1st, 2008, 04:47 AM
Great research you did there. My polish came with the 49 and pure wax in a boat restoration kit. Meguiars certainly gives the impressions that 45 is supposed to be used after 49. Its hard to understand why it isn't working for you or I.

Ah well, nothing wrong with skipping the polish, especially with a boat that has been taken such good care of.

Enjoy! And thanks for your hard work! Maybe Mike will be able to figure out what happened when he reconditions the 76er.

Mike Phillips
Aug 1st, 2008, 09:37 AM
The people in charge of our Marine department are out on vacation and won't be back until August 12th.

I actually have no idea what's taking place that would be giving both of you these results but as soon as the product manager for our Marine line returns I'll bring them up to speed on the thread and then let them take over from there.

I will try to duplicate your test on the 1976 Starline Deville as it has some oxidation from the water line down as you can see in the pics below...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/820/1976SilverLiner004.jpg



Here's a close-up of the same shot that better shows the oxidation...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/820/1976SilverLiner004c.jpg

SeaRayOwner
Aug 1st, 2008, 02:34 PM
Mike I appreciate your help. I would really like to get a quality polish on this area. I look forward to additional information from the Marine Dept. Please let me know how you fair with the Silver Line.

SeaRayOwner
Aug 1st, 2008, 08:19 PM
I thought I would share the #49 followed by pics of the #63. I wish I would have taken before photos. The transom had light to moderate oxidation. Looking pretty good now.

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/343439510_92wBW-L.jpg

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/343439707_BfvAA-L.jpg

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/343439850_y5jrx-L.jpg

The "trunk" door has always had the orange peel look since the boat arrived from the factory in shrink wrap on the truck. I have asked that it be replaced twice... but the replacement doors looked exactly the same. It must be the way they shoot the gel coat on this part.

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/343440361_kznEQ-L.jpg

Nappers
Aug 2nd, 2008, 11:05 AM
Can't tell that is kept outside.

Good show.

Hopefully your new way of skipping pure polish helps. Looks like it anyway.

Hopefully someone has an answer to as why the polish hazes.

Aaron

SeaRayOwner
Aug 4th, 2008, 02:56 AM
Thanks Aaron I appreciate the compliment. I spend quite a few hours ensuring the boat looks great. Lots and lots of surface area to detail.

Jokeman
Aug 4th, 2008, 06:53 AM
Nice job. I have 2 boats I have to do at the end of the season. I am not sure if either have ever been polished.

Tom MacDonald
Aug 4th, 2008, 01:50 PM
Hi All,

Well, I have not read every thread in this post, but I read about the initial problem with M45 hazing the surface after time. I have seen this occur on a gelcoat surface that is older and very neglected, but has been restored. The problem being is that the surface, though looking like it is free of all oxidation after cleaning still has oxidation deep in the gel. So when the polish is applied it gets absorbed in the gel coat and can cause some hazing for this reason. But this appears to be a gelcoat in pretty good condition. A couple questions:

1. How old is the bottle of polish?
2. Is the product consistent and not separated( exposed to extreme heat or cold)?

If neither of these are a factor I recommend that you skip the M45 step and go directly to the M63. The M63 does have polish in it so it may be a case of too much of the polish step being applied to a surface. By eliminating the
M45 you are still getting polish, but not an excess amount.

Let me know how this works you.

Tom Mac Donald
Meguiar's Inc
800-854-8073

SeaRayOwner
Aug 5th, 2008, 10:29 AM
Tom thanks for your reply. Here are the answers to your questions.

1. I would guess the first bottle of polish was 12-14 months old. Suspecting something was amiss I changed out everything pads, polish, MF, my can of Dr. Pepper (mentioned in previous post, not sure if you read that far). The new bottle I opened was 6 months old. I keep 5-6 bottles of M45 on hand.

2. Yes. If the product had appeared inconsistent or different than previous bottles of M45 I would not have used the product. As I mentioned I keep plenty on hand. I always rub the product between my fingers and smell (weird I know) but it has alerted me to "something is not right" in the past. All of my detailing "stuff" is kept in the garage in Northern California. We will see a few daytime temps that exceed 100 degrees but I have never had the garage temp guage over 95. The product does not sit anywhere where it can come into contact with sunlight.

Take a look for yourself :)

http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/345813330_bxQVX-L.jpg


Just to clarify the problems statement. It seems that #49 followed with #45 is making the surface appearance (reflection) hazy or not as clear as the result with #49 alone. A haze after a polish or a polish detracting from the appearance did not seem right thus the reason for this thread. I am hoping Meguiars can shed some light on what is going on. If you read the other posts you will see I also did tests with #7, #81, #44+#45, and #45 all over an area which had been prepped with #49. The result was good with #49 alone so in the interest of getting my boat back in the water I went back over the test area and #45'd area with #49 to clean it back up then applied #63 (3 thin coats). The results of this are also in a previous post within this thread.

The area did have some light oxidation (thanks to our near constant 10 and 11 UV index days I would guess) which is why I cracked open a bottle of #49 (1 week old) to begin with.

I hope this helps.

Tom MacDonald
Aug 5th, 2008, 12:13 PM
I think the next step in a solution would be to by-pass the M45 step and go directly to the M63 after M49. Try it in a spot and see how this works for you.

To find a true solution to this you may need to take me out on the water to your best local fishing hole. We can drowned worms and investigate if the fish aren't biting.:xyxthumbs

Let me know what this does. I will be out of the office until next week attending Hot August Nights in Reno so I may not have access to much on line.

Regards,

Tom Mac Donald
Meguiar's Inc

SeaRayOwner
Aug 5th, 2008, 01:02 PM
Tom I did the #49 to #63 already see results in post #24 above. Turned out pretty well. I felt as though I may be missing a step if I skipped the polish but the results are good. I would be happy to have you aboard, if your in SoCal just take I-5 north for a bit.... get off on Hwy 50 and head to Folsom. I will have to introduce you to fishing the way we do it.

Step 1 - Run the boat and have fun.
Step 2 - When you get hungry proceed to the best fish house with a dock in close proximity.
Step 3 (The fishing part) - Tie the boat up and head into the fish house and eat your fill
Step 4 - Return to the boat and repeat Step 1.

Fish guts and fish smell are simply not allowed aboard. I have friends who fish on their boats... they say the smell comes out.... I beg to differ :) They clean up with bottles of clorox and other stuff which I makes the polish under my nails scream.

Have a great time at hot August nights... always a good time.

Tom MacDonald
Aug 5th, 2008, 01:07 PM
LOL.. Too funny Jeremy. Based on what you have told me about the boat and the products you are using, combined with the haze issue on your particular gelcoat. I don't think you are missing anything. Remember, the M63 does have both polish and protection, so you are not really missing that step. Now, if you had a dark colored gelcoat I would probably recommend that you do keep the M45 in as one of your steps.

Regards,

Tom

SeaRayOwner
Aug 5th, 2008, 01:21 PM
Yes sir... I have 31 feet of hull that is black.... the 45 works wonders on the black gel...... what I love is after you get done with #45 --> #63 or #49 --> #63 the gel coat is so silky .... dare I say soft, smooth. I just love it.

This picture was taken after #45 before #63. It is nice to know that if the wife is in the bathroom (we can it the head on a boat) using the shower I can just hop in the water and shave using the reflection on the hull. :)



http://whisler.smugmug.com/photos/309983353_WbzPA-L.jpg

Mike Phillips
Aug 5th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Step 1 - Run the boat and have fun.
Step 2 - When you get hungry proceed to the best fish house with a dock in close proximity.
Step 3 (The fishing part) - Tie the boat up and head into the fish house and eat your fill
Step 4 - Return to the boat and repeat Step 1.



That's kind of the way we did it with the drag boat only instead of pulling up to a fish house on the lake we would go to Costco and catch our limit.

Cool thing about fishing at Costco is you don't need a fishing license and the fish is already cleaned, frozen and packaged waiting for you to cook it up and you can always catch your limit.

:xyxthumbs

Now that we have a family boat and a 9-year old that wants to fish it looks like we have to go back to the old-fashioned way...

My dad took me fishing and water skiing since I was old enough to walk so now it's my turn...

"Each one teach one"

:)

SeaRayOwner
Aug 6th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Costco has a good selection of superb quality seafood. The wife and I pick up lots for the house.... and boat (for the BBQ). Costco is the best I have found locally. To get better I will head to Florida (Panama City Beach).... where the menu is dictated by what they caught that day. Lots of mom and pop places that are unbelievable.

May I ask what boat you have.... I love boats, boating, and anything that has to do with maintaining, messing about, or running a boat. I go to work each morning so I can boat :)

swandogg
Aug 22nd, 2009, 06:28 AM
This is the very reason I searched and found this forum. I am having the same exact problem right now with my boat.
Being new I accidentally posted my question in the other Marine section under products.:wall2

Did you or anyone else figure out a solution to this yet?
Yesterday I picked up a bottle of Duragloss 501 and it didn't haze or take away the color like the #45 did.
My bottle of #45 was bought at the beginning of the spring and who knows how long it may have sat on their shelf at the boat shop.
It just bugs me not knowing what is wrong.