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View Full Version : PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! - The Limits of the Dual Action Polisher



NVCobra
Oct 2nd, 2004, 06:35 PM
PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! (The Limits of Dual Action Polisher) (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3056)


Hello, what should i try if 83 isnt getting the job done? 84 an 85 are rotary only so what could i try next for the PC? Ive got water and bird etching with some pitting on a black car that 83 isnt getting at all,what can i try next? thx

travisdecpn
Oct 2nd, 2004, 06:42 PM
How many passes have you made with 83, and what pad are you using?

Chris Nemlich
Oct 2nd, 2004, 06:46 PM
Maybe you could try some ScratchX by hand on the real tough spots? It might take a few applications.

Chris

Mike Phillips
Oct 2nd, 2004, 07:47 PM
Hi NVCobra,

I would second what williams22 suggested, try removing the defect first by hand using ScratchX. By approaching the defect by hand you can apply concentrated pressure to a small area and really work the area. If you are successful at removing some/most/all of the defect by hand, you can then re-polish the area with the G-100 dual action polisher to even out the area.

The next level of aggressiveness would be the rotary buffer and a cleaner/polish or the rotary buffer with a diminishing abrasive compound.

It's important to remember that the G-100 dual action polisher is limited in what it can do. More and more people are pushing the envelope and trying to remove defects with this tool that would be better addressed with the rotary buffer.

Today at our G35Driver.com clinic, after discussing the proper technique for using ScratchX to remove a scratch, one of the club members went after a scratch in his finish using 5 applications of ScratchX and successfully removed it.

Another club member tried to remove a some deep scuff marks in his bumper and while he could not completely remove it, he did improve it to the point that it was a lot less noticeable.

You never know what you can do until you try.

Mike

NVCobra
Oct 2nd, 2004, 10:26 PM
Im using the orange Sonus cutting pad @ speed 6 slow mutliple passes. I can see alittle progress after about 6 or 7 aplications but thats just in a 1x2 area. I would use the ScratchX on an isolated spot but most of the hood,trunk and top of the car are hit with alot of etching an pitting. Isnt there anything more agressive to use with the PC?

tguil
Oct 3rd, 2004, 04:28 AM
NV Cobra,

Although Meguiar's doesn't recommend it -- Try Meguiar's burgandy pad with the pc at 5 or 6 and apply a little more pressure. Make several passes. Follow up with #83 and a polishing pad. Then #82 with a polishing pad.

I used this technique and it worked on some pretty tough stuff.

Tom :cool:

manueljlg
Oct 3rd, 2004, 07:14 AM
I´m having the same problem. For some reason #83 with a 8006 pad at speed 6 is not removing some cob-Web effect I have on my silver truck, but it really cleaned up a red beater car I have.
I have read on other forums about people using heavy cut cleaner with a PC and a 7006 pad with good results, but I wouldn´t try it.
The way I see it I have 2 choices: to live with the cob-webs or to buy a rotary buffer.

Mike Phillips
Oct 3rd, 2004, 07:44 AM
What you can or cannot do with a dual action polisher will always come down to how hard the paint is.

Last week a forum member brought his clear coated, 1991 Ford Lightening Truck by my house for me to look at. He tried the #83W-8006/PC combo and it had no effect.

I tried that combo and it had no effect. (The truck has horrendous cobweb scratches throughout the entire finish).

So I whipped out the rotary and followed Meguiar's philosophy,

Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

First I tried M-83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish with a W-8006 foam polishing pad on a Makita rotary buffer at around 1800 rpms.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2rotarybuffer83b-med.jpg

This had absolutely no effect on the finish. Next, I substituted M-84 Compound Power Cleaner, and switched to a W-7006 foam cutting pad with the Makita rotary buffer at the same rpm as the previous test.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2rotarybuffer84b-med.jpg

I buffed a small area of the front of the hood, and the passenger's side front top fender and was able to remove the cobweb effect and restore a smooth glossy finish.

Both of us were amazed by how hard the paint was. I suggested he contact Joe at Superior Shine (http://www.superiorshine.com/), or Brian at Auto Express (http://www.autoexprs.com/) and see if either of these guys would be interested in detailing his truck because it was going to take an experienced Professional with years behind the rotary to successfully remove the cobweb-effect.

His other option would be to repaint the truck.

It's important to note that the G-100/Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher is limited in what it can do. It's not the end-all, be-all answer to everything.

In the example above, the rotary buffer with a foam cutting pad, an aggressive cutting compound and time, heat and pressure took a long time to remove the scratches in to small areas...

The dual action polisher didn't make a dent in them... I took before and after pictures, I'll try to dig them up and post them.

What you can or cannot do with a dual action polisher will always come down to how hard the paint is

Mike

manueljlg
Oct 3rd, 2004, 04:03 PM
Thanks for your answer Mike. I´m not an experienced detailer, but I completely agree with your post. After receiving in the mail some DACP, I first tried it on a red Geo Tracker I use as a beater. It removed 90% of minor paint defects, I then followed with #82 with a polishing pad at speed 4 and finished off with NXT x 2. The results were outstanding for a 9 year old paint.
A couple of weeks later I try the same thing on my Ram, and it took me 3 passes on horizontal surfaces at speed 6 to improve just a little my cob-webs. I was disappointed, but I realized that I will need a rotary buffer to have a flawless finish.

Mike Phillips
Oct 3rd, 2004, 09:38 PM
Here's a pictures of Tim's, (aka forum member svt150tim), new-to-him Ford Lightning with a factory clear coat finish over white basecoat.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2WhiteTruck.jpg


Here's what the finish looks like all over the the entire truck,

Horrendous Swirls
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2WhiteTruckBefore.jpg

Here are the results after 10 minutes of compounding using #84 Compound Power Cleaner with a W-7006 foam cutting pad on about 1800 rpm.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2WhiteTruckAfter.jpg

We tried to remove the cobweb-effect using the G-100 with a W-8006 polishing pad and some #83 DACP but it had no visible effect. The clear coat finish on this truck is as hard as glass, the only way to remove the swirls in the finish is to machine compound with a rotary buffer.

The point is, there is only so much a dual action polisher like the Meguiar's G-100 can do, once you reach it's limit, and it's not removing the defect, then it's time to substitute a rotary buffer or if you don't own a rotary buffer, and/or the skills to operate one correctly then you will need to take your car to a professional who is trained and experienced with the proper use of the rotary buffer.

Mike

svt150tim
Oct 5th, 2004, 07:29 AM
A big thanks Mike for taking a look & working on the truck.

I have Joe from Superior Shine scheduled to work his magic on November 1st, I will find this thread and update with pics the results.

Tim
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-636-8964.jpg

Mike Phillips
Oct 5th, 2004, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by svt150tim
I have Joe from Superior Shine scheduled to work his magic on November 1st, I will find this thread and update with pics the results.

Tim

If anyone can save this finish from the paint booth... it's Joe!


Looking mean on the green!

http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-636-8964.jpg

Mike

HotRodGuy
Oct 11th, 2004, 02:06 PM
is that an intercooler I see on the red one? if so :db: :coolgleam

svt150tim
Oct 21st, 2004, 07:59 AM
yep - intercooled procharger.

Only a week & a half until Joe starts rubbin on the paint.

svt150tim
Nov 2nd, 2004, 08:46 AM
First off i want to thank Joe for going way out of his way to work on my truck and also a big thank you to Mike & Lynn for looking & working on this truck at their home...and placing Joe and I together.

I'm extremely happy with what Joe was able to do with paint, I'll let Joe tell you what he found and what it took to get where it is.

Mike has posted on the first page of this thread a few pics showing how bad the paint was when I bought this truck.

My pic taking ***** --- so believe me, this truck looks really awesome in the sun --- a true night and day difference.

A few before and during pics --- yesterday.

svt150tim
Nov 2nd, 2004, 09:29 AM
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11692.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11693.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11694.jpg

After...
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11695.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11696.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11697.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11698.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11699.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11700.jpg
http://www.nloc.net/gallery/images/full/22740-328-11701.jpg

Mike Phillips
Nov 2nd, 2004, 12:54 PM
Way to go Joe!

:bow :bow :bow

Mike

Superior Shine
Nov 4th, 2004, 04:21 PM
Mike--THANKS FOR SENDING ME THE HARD ONES!!!:wall:

Actually I love a challange and this vehicle was a challange indeed.

I found the lightning to have very little shine and allot of what appeared to be swirl marks.

I spoke witht he owner Tim ( great guy and fellow gear-head) that I was going to "attack" with a wool pad and diamond cut, the most aggersive combo I havein my arsenal.

Then Tim told me, "Mike warned me that you were going to wool pad it." I smiled and said- THATS RIGHT! Heck what do you expect from a former Marine.

Here is a pic of an over head light reflecting (as much as could be reflected from this finish)off the hood.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184ltg2-med.jpg

Superior Shine
Nov 4th, 2004, 04:34 PM
After "GRINDING" on the finish for awhile, I noticed that something wasn't right. The "swirls" were reduced but not coming out completely. I then broke out my mini-microscope and discovered millions of tiny deep cracks in the paint.

http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/63/63-1133.jpg

I color sanded a portion of the finish with Megs 1000 grit sand paper and buff the area out. The cracks were still visible.

How the cracks got there I am not sure. It is a 10 year old finish (I think it is 10 years old). There wasn't any evidence that it was ever polished or waxed.

I was able to remove the dullness and bring out a nice shine though, so I proceeded with the "transformation".

Superior Shine
Nov 4th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Here is the result of over 8 hours of polishing. The term coined by Mr. Phillips, "Maximum Potential" applies here. The finish isn't perfect but it is super nice original paint now.

Here is a pic of that reflection of that over head light again but this time it is reflecting off the freshly polished paint.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184ltg3-med.jpg

Superior Shine
Nov 4th, 2004, 04:45 PM
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184ltg5-med.jpg

I spoke to Tim today ( it has been 3 days after the polish job) and he is very happy with his "new" truck.

Mike Phillips
Nov 4th, 2004, 05:40 PM
Hi Joe,

To go from this,


Horrendous Swirls
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2WhiteTruckBefore.jpg

To this,

Maximum Potential

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184ltg5.jpg

It truly a testimony to your skill and ability. You have mastered the Art of Polishing Paint as proven time and time again with your work displayed here in your photos and write-ups and that I have seen in person.

You have earned the coveted 5 bows...

:bow :bow :bow :bow :bow

Mike

Superior Shine
Nov 4th, 2004, 05:54 PM
Thanks Mike :D ( you check is in the mail ) :D

Paulvr4
Jan 4th, 2005, 10:07 AM
hey,

what pads and compound did you go with?

i'd assume compound power cleaner, but let me know. my friends 240sx isn't up to par and 83 w/ dacp didn't work.

thanks!

Superior Shine
Jan 4th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Diamond cut with a wool pad-rotory, dacp with a marron-rotory, dacp with yellow pad g-100, topped w/NXT

Nightwalker
Mar 8th, 2005, 10:28 AM
Ok I gotta ask, what do you charge for something that intense.

Mike Phillips
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:20 AM
Being moved to Hot Topics

silence
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:47 AM
Thats a hell of a transformation. Glad it worked out. I hope when I use W8006 pad with #83 or #80 it gets my etchings and cobbwebs out. They arn't anywhere near that bad, but I would like them gone.

RLdetail
Jul 18th, 2005, 02:36 PM
I have a 96 Crown Victoria with the Police Interceptor that probably has the same paint!!!

I tried a rotary with a wool pad and #83 and it took some serious work to get little results! I'm currently waiting on my #84, #85, and a cutting pad so I can really get at it. The polishing pad and #83 did nothing that I could see with the rotary.

I too wet sanded with 1000 paper and it made a difference but I need the #84 to take out the scratches. I think the previous owner used the brush at the car wash! Enough said!

I can't duplicate the results but I would be happy with close to that!! :bow

Thanks for the hope that most will come out!

Mike Phillips
Jul 18th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by RLdetail
I tried a rotary with a wool pad and #83 and it took some serious work to get little results!

I think your results prove the point that modern catalyzed paints are pretty hard compared to most traditional single stage paints and that the dual action polisher is limited in what it can do.

For years and years I always read people on other detailing forums always writing about how soft clear coats paints are because they scratch easy when if fact they scratch easy but they are still very hard. It's good to see the information commonly posted here starting to show up in the detailing sections of other theme based car forums, as well as other detailing forums as people take the information they learn here on Meguiar's Online and share it with their friends.


I'm currently waiting on my #84, #85, and a cutting pad so I can really get at it. The

Remember,

M84 = Foam Cutting Pad
M85 = Wool Cutting Pad

RLdetail
Jul 18th, 2005, 04:47 PM
That's why I ordered them!:D

I already have a wool pad but it's not a megs.:(

When I need more pads (which might be soon so I have extras) I'll get a megs wool pad to go with the rest of my collection!

:xyxthumbs

Erik
Sep 16th, 2005, 04:29 AM
Could somebody explain why you cant use a foam cutting pad with M85? Is it to agressive?

Mike Phillips
Sep 16th, 2005, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Erik
Could somebody explain why you cant use a foam cutting pad with M85? Is it to aggressive?

You can with a rotary buffer because the powerful direct drive rotating action offers the kind of contact action necessary to push the abrasives against the finish and abrade the paint while effectively breaking them down.

The gentle oscillating action of the dual action polisher does not.

Erik
Sep 16th, 2005, 05:19 AM
oke thanx mike, its clear to me now.

Erik

Superior Shine
Mar 17th, 2006, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Nightwalker
Ok I gotta ask, what do you charge for something that intense.

Not enough!!!! :D

RobAGD
Apr 24th, 2006, 06:35 PM
Wow, after reading this I am hoping I can get my water etchings out with a DA. Its one every pannle top, with just a little spotting on the sides :(

I have to say the Paint on my Magnum *****, its stupid thin ( Base and clear ) and after this winter it needs lots of love.

Waiting on delivery of the #80 and 9006 pads ( I have 83, NXT wax and 8006 and 7006 pads ) so I am hoping I am ar,ed well enough to tackle this one.

Congrats on one hell of a Job on the Ford man, thats outstanding !.


-Robert

jayelleseven
May 5th, 2006, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Hi NVCobra,

I would second what williams22 suggested, try removing the defect first by hand using ScratchX. By approaching the defect by hand you can apply concentrated pressure to a small area and really work the area. If you are successful at removing some/most/all of the defect by hand, you can then re-polish the area with the G-100 dual action polisher to even out the area.

The next level of aggressiveness would be the rotary buffer and a cleaner/polish or the rotary buffer with a diminishing abrasive compound.

It's important to remember that the G-100 dual action polisher is limited in what it can do. More and more people are pushing the envelope and trying to remove defects with this tool that would be better addressed with the rotary buffer.

Today at our G35Driver.com clinic, after discussing the proper technique for using ScratchX to remove a scratch, one of the club members went after a scratch in his finish using 5 applications of ScratchX and successfully removed it.

Another club member tried to remove a some deep scuff marks in his bumper and while he could not completely remove it, he did improve it to the point that it was a lot less noticeable.

You never know what you can do until you try.

Mike

could u give me the link to the g35driver link regarding sratchX use/application? I cannot find it. Thank you_

RobAGD
May 5th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Welp after a solid 8 hours of work, my finish looks great except the damn water etching.

Did a wash with Megs Deep Crystal Wash, then dried using terry cloth and micro fiber towels.

Reclay barred a few spots on the car ( the New Megs Clay Kit, I had just clayed the car 2 or 3 weeks ago )

Started with PC 7336 and #80 and 8006 pad, didnt even make a dent on the etching, but did lighten the light haloing I was started to get.

Broke out another 8006 pad and #83 and started attacking the hood. 3 passes and light sworls and scratches are gone, but the etching is just laughting at me. It's bad enough that its not going to be a spot fix.

So after taping off my trim I just start to work the whole car, Get done with the 83 dig in with #80 then the 2nd Stage Polish I had bought earlier ( 1 paint cleaner #2 polish #3 wax stuff from Megs ). BTW - I like the way that stuff smells :)

Then I layed in with the the wax, and several bonnets later I had a nice gleaming finish ( minus the etching ).

I am going to have to take it to my local Detail guy and have him fix the paint with the right tool and I hope to keep up on it.

Brilliant Black Pearl is a damn pretty color but she is a harsh mistress...

I will have to stay I have never had a charlie horse in my hand before today :/

I use a bit too much product and also tent to over work it ( got good with it towards the end, more pratice and I hope a Megs class here in MD/Va area soon )

blah, not a bad day, I just wish I could have made a dent in teh etching...

-R

Dav_C
Oct 4th, 2008, 09:10 PM
I was working on a 12 year old Mercedes paint with deep swirls and water mark.

I don't have a rotary, only a Flex 3401. Nothing works well enough (#83 etc); until I tried the following method for 3 passes:

Flex 3401 at speed 5.
Meguiars Foam Cutting Pad W7006
M105 ultra cut compound.

Fortunately it works but I had to apply a lot of pressure to see the swirl go away. The finish is nice, without swirls.

Now I really hope to have a rotary and wool pad in my 'tool box'.