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Mikejl
Apr 5th, 2009, 07:18 AM
I was reading another thread and it was stated that claying will remove wax. From my limited personal experiences, I doubt that claying removes wax. I have to clay at least once a month and I always do another wash after claying. On my car, the water still beads just as good as it did after the first wash before claying.

I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

CieraSL
Apr 5th, 2009, 08:42 AM
As you know, washing removes only surface contaminants (such as dust, pollen, dirt, etc.). Claying removes bonded contaminants. While wax is not a contaminant, it does bond to the surface of the paint, thus claying will remove wax along with the bonded contaminants. Which is why you have to rewax after claying. Here's some information from Autogeek (I only used the parts that were relevant):

Detailing clay glides along the surface of your paint and grabs anything that protrudes from the surface. The particle sticks to the clay and is therefore removed from your vehicle. The surface being clayed should always be wet with clay lubricant to prevent loose debris from scratching the vehicle.

"There are two different grades of clay currently available to the public. One is a medium grade detailing clay designed to clean the vehicle once or twice a year. This grade of clay removes wax along with anything else on the vehicle. (non-quote: this would probably be like Meguiar's Professional Detailing Clay - Mild)
Your other option is a fine grade that’s relatively new to the industry....it's a favorite of enthusiasts who prefer to clay as often as needed to keep that slick finish. This detailing clay removes everything the medium clay removes and it is gentle enough to use monthly or as needed for spot cleaning. (non-quote: this is probably like the clay in the Smooth Surface Clay kit)

What Does Detailing Clay Remove?

Your vehicle is under constant assault from airborne pollutants. Brake dust, industrial fallout, acid rain deposits and rail dust all can adhere to your vehicle. These contaminants often contain metal particulates, which accounts for the ease with which they penetrate the clear coat to attack the paint below. These contaminants then oxidize, and they allow rust to spread beneath the clear coat. Tiny orange spots today, total paint system failure tomorrow! Detailing clay removes these contaminants in order to keep the paint healthy and vibrant. Detailing Clay also removes stubborn sap, tar, and bug remains. Detailing clay works wonder on glass as well. Try some the next time you’re washing your windows. You’ll be amazed at the results!

Waxes and paint sealants will adhere better to clean paint and the shine will be more uniform and vibrant.


Always follow claying with a wax or sealant. Clay will removing existing wax and may leave tiny holes where contaminants have been removed. They must be sealed in order to protect the paint from corrosion."


So, claying does remove wax and should therefore be re-waxed afterwards. Hope this helps!

akimel
Apr 5th, 2009, 08:55 AM
I was reading another thread and it was stated that claying will remove wax. From my limited personal experiences, I doubt that claying removes wax. I have to clay at least once a month and I always do another wash after claying. On my car, the water still beads just as good as it did after the first wash before claying.

Beading is a product of surface tension. Is it possible that the reason water beads well after claying is not because wax is still present but because the surface is now very smooth?

Tuck91
Apr 5th, 2009, 05:25 PM
i think it removes some wax but not all of it.

Mikejl
Apr 5th, 2009, 06:05 PM
Here's some information from Autogeek (I only used the parts that were relevant):...
So, claying does remove wax and should therefore be re-waxed afterwards. Hope this helps!
Thank you for that thorough explaination. I will look for that thread at Autogeek.

Your explanation sounds good, but I'm still not convinced. It is true that wax is bonded to the paint, but once the car is washed all but the bonded contaminants should be removed leaving a lot the waxed surface smooth. The clay traveling over the lubricated waxed surface would just glide over until it reaches a protruding contaminant. If my logic is sound, then there is still a fair coverage of wax on the paint.


Beading is a product of surface tension. Is it possible that the reason water beads well after claying is not because wax is still present but because the surface is now very smooth?
I thought about that, but I really doubt it in this case. The beads were just a tight as they were after wash before I clayed. #26 beads very nicely.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you don't need to wax your car after claying. I believe that the waxed finish would be somewhat compromised by claying. I just don't think all wax is removed like an IPA or Mineral Spirits wipe down would do.

Let's take this scenario for example:

We take a freshly clayed and waxed car and then decide we want fresh clean bare paint to remove some swirls. Let's also say it takes the same amount of time to do a Dawn Wash, IPA rubdown or Clay. Which one would you feel the least confident to remove all wax?

Mike

CieraSL
Apr 5th, 2009, 06:55 PM
Thank you for that thorough explaination. I will look for that thread at Autogeek.

Your explanation sounds good, but I'm still not convinced. It is true that wax is bonded to the paint, but once the car is washed all but the bonded contaminants should be removed leaving a lot the waxed surface smooth. The clay traveling over the lubricated waxed surface would just glide over until it reaches a protruding contaminant. If my logic is sound, then there is still a fair coverage of wax on the paint.


I thought about that, but I really doubt it in this case. The beads were just a tight as they were after wash before I clayed. #26 beads very nicely.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you don't need to wax your car after claying. I believe that the waxed finish would be somewhat compromised by claying. I just don't think all wax is removed like an IPA or Mineral Spirits wipe down would do.

Let's take this scenario for example:

We take a freshly clayed and waxed car and then decide we want fresh clean bare paint to remove some swirls. Let's also say it takes the same amount of time to do a Dawn Wash, IPA rubdown or Clay. Which one would you feel the least confident to remove all wax?

Mike

Here's that thread from Autogeek: http://www.autogeek.net/detailing-clay-bar.html

Quote: "It is true that wax is bonded to the paint,but once the car is washed all but the bonded contaminants should be removed leaving a lot the waxed surface smooth." Not necessarily so. Washing removes surface contaminants (dirt, pollen, dust, etc.) but claying removes bonded contaminants (industrial pollution, rail dust, brake dust, overspray, etc.), with scratches and swirls falling elsewhere and requiring a different realm of products to remove. Obviously, wax is not merely intended to lie on the surface of the paint only to be removed with just a simple wash (provided of course you're using a quality car wash and not Dawn detergent), it bonds to the paint and breaks down over time, sacrificing itself so your paint doesn't suffer. Since it is bonded to the paint, it will be removed by the clay bar. In order for this not to be the case, the wax would essentially have to be part of the paint itself, which just isn't so. Let me try to explain it this way. This is a bad example, but I couldn't come up with a better one off the top of my head. Imagine your car is a piece of wood (which was true with the first cars, lol), and the wax on your car is like a stain or varnish. Washing the car is like taking a dust rag to the piece of wood, merely removing surface dust and whatnot. Sanding the surface is kind of like claybarring, removing rough protusions in the wood and the stain or varnish along with it, thus the need to re-stain or re-varnish. Like I said, not a very good example but it's the best I could do. And as far as water-beading is concerned, that is not the only indication that there is wax on the car. Water beads up tightly on our shower wall, but I can tell you for a fact that there is no wax on the shower. Also, I've seen water bead up on cars that have never had a wax, probably because there is more surface tension on them; I never could figure that one out. Hope this helps and answers your questions. Thanks for reading!

akimel
Apr 5th, 2009, 07:22 PM
Mike, you can easily test your hypothesis. Check for beading and take photos. Then wash your car using a wash solution like Chemical Guys' Citrus Wash Clear at the full detail strength. This will remove all wax on your car (at least so the product description says). Then clay the car. Now check the car for beading and take photos. If you are correct, your car should not bead as well after the wash and clay as before.

Without empirical data, all our speculation is just that ... speculation. :)

Mikejl
Apr 5th, 2009, 07:25 PM
Here's that thread from Autogeek: http://www.autogeek.net/detailing-clay-bar.html

Quote: "It is true that wax is bonded to the paint,but once the car is washed all but the bonded contaminants should be removed leaving a lot the waxed surface smooth." Not necessarily so. Washing removes surface contaminants (dirt, pollen, dust, etc.) but claying removes bonded contaminants (industrial pollution, rail dust, brake dust, overspray, etc.), with scratches and swirls falling elsewhere and requiring a different realm of products to remove. Obviously, wax is not merely intended to lie on the surface of the paint only to be removed with just a simple wash (provided of course you're using a quality car wash and not Dawn detergent), it bonds to the paint and breaks down over time, sacrificing itself so your paint doesn't suffer. Since it is bonded to the paint, it will be removed by the clay bar. In order for this not to be the case, the wax would essentially have to be part of the paint itself, which just isn't so. Let me try to explain it this way. This is a bad example, but I couldn't come up with a better one off the top of my head. Imagine your car is a piece of wood (which was true with the first cars, lol), and the wax on your car is like a stain or varnish. Washing the car is like taking a dust rag to the piece of wood, merely removing surface dust and whatnot. Sanding the surface is kind of like claybarring, removing rough protusions in the wood and the stain or varnish along with it, thus the need to re-stain or re-varnish. Like I said, not a very good example but it's the best I could do. And as far as water-beading is concerned, that is not the only indication that there is wax on the car. Water beads up tightly on our shower wall, but I can tell you for a fact that there is no wax on the shower. Also, I've seen water bead up on cars that have never had a wax, probably because there is more surface tension on them; I never could figure that one out. Hope this helps and answers your questions. Thanks for reading!
Thanks for the link. I will check it out shortly.
If I'm reading your reply correctly, your premise is that claying removes anything that is bonded to the paint and since wax is bonded to the paint it is removed during claying. Is that correct?

Is so, I disagree. I think clay is designed to remove bonded contaminants that protrude above the surface. I don't think it abrades a smooth surface until it hit bare paint. If that were the case you would mar the surface. Plus the clay is gliding over layer of lubrication while it working.

Mike

CieraSL
Apr 5th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Thanks for the link. I will check it out shortly.
If I'm reading your reply correctly, your premise is that claying removes anything that is bonded to the paint and since wax is bonded to the paint it is removed during claying. Is that correct?

Is so, I disagree. I think clay is designed to remove bonded contaminants that protrude above the surface. I don't think it abrades a smooth surface until it hit bare paint. If that were the case you would mar the surface. Plus the clay is gliding over layer of lubrication while it working.

Mike

OK, let's look at it this way. Here's some illustrations from http://www.texstardetail.com/6.html

http://www.texstardetail.com/resources/clay-graphic-wash.jpg http://www.texstardetail.com/resources/clay-graphic-clay.jpg

Imagine that these illustrations were taken from a car that had not been clayed, only waxed. Now imagine that the top of your wax comes to the top of the word "Overspray" in the first illustration, that is to say, the layer begins at that point and ends at the clear coat. So the wax is sealing in the contaminants. The wax has to be removed if the clay bar is to move "through the wax" in order to remove the bonded contaminants. If the wax were not removed, then how could the contaminants be removed? That just doesn't make sense. And the lubrication is just that, lubrication. The lube does not affect whether or not wax or bonded contaminants are being removed, it just helps the clay bar move so it can pick up whatever is bonded to the paint. Like how you rinse your skin off before you soap it, just to help the soap move easier. You could make the argument, "Oh the soap doesn't remove dirt and whatnot from my skin because it never comes in direct contact with my skin, only with the water." Same basic principle with the clay bar and lube. This won't mar the surface - you're gently cleaning the surface with a clay bar, not scrubbing it with a Brillo pad. Hope this clarifies things a little better.

Mikejl
Apr 6th, 2009, 06:11 AM
OK, let's look at it this way. Here's some illustrations from http://www.texstardetail.com/6.html

http://www.texstardetail.com/resources/clay-graphic-wash.jpg http://www.texstardetail.com/resources/clay-graphic-clay.jpg

Imagine that these illustrations were taken from a car that had not been clayed, only waxed. Now imagine that the top of your wax comes to the top of the word "Overspray" in the first illustration, that is to say, the layer begins at that point and ends at the clear coat. So the wax is sealing in the contaminants. The wax has to be removed if the clay bar is to move "through the wax" in order to remove the bonded contaminants. If the wax were not removed, then how could the contaminants be removed? That just doesn't make sense. And the lubrication is just that, lubrication. The lube does not affect whether or not wax or bonded contaminants are being removed, it just helps the clay bar move so it can pick up whatever is bonded to the paint. Like how you rinse your skin off before you soap it, just to help the soap move easier. You could make the argument, "Oh the soap doesn't remove dirt and whatnot from my skin because it never comes in direct contact with my skin, only with the water." Same basic principle with the clay bar and lube. This won't mar the surface - you're gently cleaning the surface with a clay bar, not scrubbing it with a Brillo pad. Hope this clarifies things a little better.

How can you equate overspray with a coat of wax? Overspray protrudes above the surface unevenly. How are you getting wax above the contaminants? The wax layer is sub micron thick. I doubt any contaminants that we are trying to remove are anywhere near that small. Wax is a smooth coat over the paint. All contaminants will be above the wax layer. Will wax be removed where the overspray was removed? Certainly, but I still believe the well lubricated clay glides over the smooth surface of the wax leaving it in place. I don't see claying ever being used as a reliable method of stripping wax from paint.

Since none of the Pro's have weighed in on this, maybe it isn't as cut and dry an issue as either of us think. :)

Mike

Mike Phillips
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:06 AM
When you rub a clay bar with pressure over a waxed, painted surface are you adding wax?

:scratchhead1

CieraSL
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:28 AM
When you rub a clay bar with pressure over a waxed, painted surface are you adding wax?

:scratchhead1

No. That was my point - the clay bar removes anything that is on the painted surface, including wax, right? :hm1 Anything you do to an already waxed surface either improves/"assists" the wax or takes away from/removes the wax. At least that's what my assumption is. Help me out Mike, does a clay bar remove all or some of the wax?

akimel
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:32 AM
From the Meguiar's FAQ (http://www.meguiars.com/faq/index.cfm?faqCat=Auto%20Detailing%20Clay&faqQuestionID=71&section=_71):

6. Does clay remove wax?

Yes, while clay is designed to remove above surface bonded contaminants, clay will also remove some wax protection from the surface. We strongly recommend following the claying process with a coat of wax for maximum gloss and protection.

Mikejl
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:45 AM
When you rub a clay bar with pressure over a waxed, painted surface are you adding wax?

:scratchhead1
No it doesn't add wax and I understand that the opposite of adding is removing, but there is a third "does nothing" option (where the wax is smooth and clean on the paint).

QD'ing doesn't add wax either, but I'm pretty sure the most effect it has is to slightly degrade the wax, It doesn't strip wax and remove it competely.

:)

Mike

CieraSL
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:48 AM
Hey Mikejl, you wanna go into debating classes together? I think we're getting pretty good at this virtual debating stuff! LOL! :chuckle1

Mikejl
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:52 AM
From the Meguiar's FAQ (http://www.meguiars.com/faq/index.cfm?faqCat=Auto%20Detailing%20Clay&faqQuestionID=71&section=_71):

6. Does clay remove wax?

Yes, while clay is designed to remove above surface bonded contaminants, clay will also remove some wax protection from the surface. We strongly recommend following the claying process with a coat of wax for maximum gloss and protection.

Thanks Al,

I believe that quote adds support to my position.

Mike

Mikejl
Apr 6th, 2009, 07:54 AM
Hey Mikejl, you wanna go into debating classes together? I think we're getting pretty good at this virtual debating stuff! LOL! :chuckle1
:laughing

CieraSL
Apr 6th, 2009, 08:03 AM
Well, I guess it's really hard to say whether claying removes all of the wax on the surface or some of it. I guess as long as it's picking up bonded contaminants and not marring the surface it doesn't matter, because you'll hopefully re-wax afterward anyway. I've clayed some cars and seen the water completely sheet on them with absolutely no beading, and I've clayed some cars and seen the water bead on them and it looks like it just got waxed. I'm not sure why that is, or why it varies from car to car. I know I'm right when I say that water beading is not the only indication that there is still wax on the car. I suppose that's why you just have to wax every few months, so you don't have to question whether or not there is indeed wax on the car. Between claying and polishing, all the wax will be removed. In the end, our "argument" won't matter, because the the end results on the car will tell the whole story. :dp:

Poki
Apr 9th, 2009, 07:23 PM
Wouldn't the QD used as a clay lube make the water bead??

Chop
Apr 9th, 2009, 09:38 PM
I've clayed some cars and seen the water completely sheet on them with absolutely no beading, and I've clayed some cars and seen the water bead on them and it looks like it just got waxed. I'm not sure why that is, or why it varies from car to car.

My two cents:

It could be that the cars that showed no beading after clay either had very little wax left or no wax at all and the clay removed all wax that was left. While on the ones you saw beading they maybe had just been waxed or had multiple layers of wax and the clay was not agressive enough to remove all wax.

I am assumming you don't own these cars and if so then :dunno

CieraSL
Apr 10th, 2009, 08:10 PM
My two cents:

It could be that the cars that showed no beading after clay either had very little wax left or no wax at all and the clay removed all wax that was left. While on the ones you saw beading they maybe had just been waxed or had multiple layers of wax and the clay was not agressive enough to remove all wax.

I am assumming you don't own these cars and if so then :dunno

If you are saying that the cars that were clayed but still showed beading are mine then you are correct.

cardriver
May 12th, 2009, 07:39 PM
"Does claying really remove wax?"

Does it really matter? Anytime I clay, it's when I'm doing a complete fresh detail session (handful of times per year) and I wash with Dawn to strip off all the old product anyway. My weekly washes use NXT wash liquid.

xantonin
May 12th, 2009, 09:47 PM
Could be that the lubricant you're using is causing the water to bead, and not the wax.

TH0001
May 13th, 2009, 04:10 AM
Wouldn't the QD used as a clay lube make the water bead??


BINGO!!!!!

A freshly clayed surface, wiped with alcohol, will not bead water (in general, so paint's just seem to bead naturally).

I have seen this so many times it isn't even funny. Car doesn't bead before claying but starts to bead after claying. Wipe half of the hood down with alcohol, and suddenly the beading stops.

As far as removing most waxes and sealants, keep in mind that the coating thickness is usually sub micron!

Anybody who has done this long enough will run into weird problems with cars, where it appears that you cannot remove the sealant no matter what. My guess is that these are the cheap, jobber, style sealants that are loaded to the gills with silicones. From what has been explained to me, some of these products are like Vaseline, in that even if you wash you hands twenty times, they just seem to smear around. I have had cars where I could not buff out the swirl marks because it seemed like these products created a barrier on the paint (in this case only trusty M83 worked).

Michael Stoops
May 13th, 2009, 11:03 AM
I think clay is designed to remove bonded contaminants that protrude above the surface.
While this is, of course, absolutely true, clay will still remove wax as it is technically a mildly abrasive product. How much wax it removes is going to have a lot to do with how long you work it against the surface. Compare the process to polishing out swirls - a good paint cleaner will get them out, but not if you don't work it long enough. Sure, the QD is there to act as a lubricant to both protect the paint and allow the clay to glide easily, but it's not an impervious barrier.
I don't think it abrades a smooth surface until it hit bare paint. If that were the case you would mar the surface. Plus the clay is gliding over layer of lubrication while it working.
Again, consider that a clay bar is, technically, doing its thing via an abrasive process and it's not just "picking" the bonded contaminants off the surface. Consider further that our C2100 Aggressive Clay is actually aggressive enough that it can, and often will, haze the paint.

As to water beading - we recently did a little wax comparo here at work and started by prepping the hood of a vehicle with Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner to remove anything from the surface and then left a section like that as a control. After applying 3 different waxes to the remaining sections and a week later washing the car, upon initial rinse all 4 sections beaded water almost equally - including the section with ONLY the paint cleaner used on it!! After washing, however, any residual paint cleaner was removed and with the final rinse the water just laid there in a big ol' sheet on the paint cleaner only section.

Mikejl
May 13th, 2009, 04:06 PM
Alright. You guys have me on the fence now and I'm not so sure anymore. :(

I did use beading to come to my original conclusion. The last time I clayed, I made sure to watch carefully for beading before and after claying. I did this because the previous time I clayed I saw amazing beading after the following wash and rinse.

Here is the process I used:

Wash w/GC
Clay w/LT 1:1
wash w/GC

I noticed the beading to be just as tight during both the before and after rinses.

I need to Clay again real soon, so I will do a contolled test next time with pictures and post the results back here.


Mike

Eddie6th
Jun 3rd, 2009, 04:32 PM
I believe it does.

CieraSL
Jun 3rd, 2009, 06:57 PM
I know I've already posted in this thread, but a thought just came to me, so I'm going to throw it out there and you can tell me if you agree or not. I think that whether or not claying removes wax has a lot to do with how often the car is waxed. For example, if the car is waxed every 3 - 4 months, and the car is clayed (and the paint is cleaned) with every wax, then I would venture that most, if not all of the wax will be removed. However, if the car gets waxed more frequently, say once every 4 - 6 or 8 weeks, then I don't think all the wax will be removed. I clayed and waxed my car a couple of days ago, and I didn't really notice a difference in beading during my initial wash and the wash following claying. Now, my car gets waxed pretty often, so I think that factors into it. However, my parents' 1990 Accord gets waxed every 3 months or so, and after claying there is almost no beading whatsoever. Just a thought...:thinking1

Mikejl
Jun 9th, 2009, 06:54 PM
I know I've already posted in this thread, but a thought just came to me, so I'm going to throw it out there and you can tell me if you agree or not. I think that whether or not claying removes wax has a lot to do with how often the car is waxed. For example, if the car is waxed every 3 - 4 months, and the car is clayed (and the paint is cleaned) with every wax, then I would venture that most, if not all of the wax will be removed. However, if the car gets waxed more frequently, say once every 4 - 6 or 8 weeks, then I don't think all the wax will be removed. I clayed and waxed my car a couple of days ago, and I didn't really notice a difference in beading during my initial wash and the wash following claying. Now, my car gets waxed pretty often, so I think that factors into it. However, my parents' 1990 Accord gets waxed every 3 months or so, and after claying there is almost no beading whatsoever. Just a thought...:thinking1
I think your reasoning has merit and you may be on to what I am seeing.

I would like to throw in with the other side because of all the heavy hitters that say it does remove the wax, but I just can't get myself convinced. Unfortunately there are no verified lab test data one way or the other.

By the way I did clay again my car a couple of weeks ago, but didn't have time to do a controlled test with pictures as I had to get it ready to go to a wedding. I did see the same beading at the post claying wash as in the past.

Mike

brims
Jun 9th, 2009, 09:14 PM
For those of you that wash, clay, and wash again, there is the Meguiar's (?) squeak test to see if there is wax on the surface. I know this one won't work for those of us that wash then clay and move on because the QD will prevent the squeak, but this may be more information on this subject.

CieraSL
Jun 9th, 2009, 10:42 PM
For those of you that wash, clay, and wash again, there is the Meguiar's (?) squeak test to see if there is wax on the surface. I know this one won't work for those of us that wash then clay and move on because the QD will prevent the squeak, but this may be more information on this subject.

Well, if there is any wax left on the surface after claying, it will be removed after you use a paint cleaner (i.e. DC1, Scratch X 2.0, Swirl X, Ultimate Compound, etc.).

10degreesbtdc
Jun 13th, 2009, 03:55 AM
Here's the question that came to mind when reading this thread: If claying removes the wax/sealant where does it go? If you took the amount of wax/sealant that was used to coat the entire vehicle and poured it or spread it on a clay bar, it would not absorb it. So does the wax/sealant being removed when claying run off with the lubricant used? Wouldn't it show up in the run-off/residue or on the clay since most waxes/sealants have color? (shouldn't gray clay show lavender color from M21 or yellow from paste wax as if you rubbed it directly on the clay, same as it leaves the color on pads). Similar to when wet sanding clear coat residue/run-off is white. ???

:scratchhead1

CieraSL
Jun 13th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Here's the question that came to mind when reading this thread: If claying removes the wax/sealant where does it go? If you took the amount of wax/sealant that was used to coat the entire vehicle and poured it or spread it on a clay bar, it would not absorb it. So does the wax/sealant being removed when claying run off with the lubricant used? Wouldn't it show up in the run-off/residue or on the clay since most waxes/sealants have color? (shouldn't gray clay show lavender color from M21 or yellow from paste wax as if you rubbed it directly on the clay, same as it leaves the color on pads). Similar to when wet sanding clear coat residue/run-off is white. ???

:scratchhead1

Well, I don't think the clay necessarily absorbs it, it just breaks it down faster then it would under its normal environment. Since the wax is only a few sub microns thick (or whatever the correct term is), breakdown of the wax is not going to be visible to the naked eye. From all that wax or sealant that you put on your applicator or pad and applied it to the car, only some of that goes on the car and bonds to the paint. The rest gets buffed off. And as far as the color of the wax or sealant is concerned, that's not going to be an issue because the color gets pretty much left behind in the residue, which you buffed off as excess. So that won't show up on your clay. If it were left behind for your clay or whatever, then don't you think your car would have a light yellow or lavender tint to it (based on the color of the LSP)? If that were the case, it would be especially noticeable on light colored cars, like white or silver. You'd probably see a lot of stuff on your clay bar if you stuck it under a microscope, but nothing you can see with the naked eye and therefore nothing you should worry about. Hope this helps answer your questions.

10degreesbtdc
Jun 14th, 2009, 04:18 AM
I did a test on a hood yesterday just to answer this question for myself...Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I cleaned the hood with IPA numerous times. Splashed some water on it and it beaded up. Cleaned again, same thing. So I went ahead anyway.

Polished with M83 numerous times by hand to clean surface (not to remove obvious swirls), wiped 3 times with IPA, water still beaded.

Applied several coats of M21, water beads looked the same. Clayed using only water as lubricant for this test so as not to introduce any residues from recommended clay lubricants. Same beads. Removed M21 with IPA (if there was any left after claying???), beads the same. Applied Gold Paste Wax, same beads. Clayed with water again, same beads. Cleaned with IPA, same beads.

No matter what I did on this 3-stage paint the water beads look the same. This paint's clear-coat must have silicone in it! Weird. :dunnoCan anyone tell me which part was waxed and which was not by looking at the water beads?

Water poured slowly on surface half cleaned with IPA, half waxed with M21. It slowly ran off the to left because the hood was not completely level.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/digitaljunkie/Detailing%20Products/bead_noWax_blazerHood.jpg

Water sprinkled on half-waxed/half not waxed surface.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/digitaljunkie/Detailing%20Products/bead_halfWax_blazerHood-topView.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/digitaljunkie/Detailing%20Products/bead_halfWax_blazerHood.jpg

Off topic: You can see why I need to wet sand this entire vehicle once fabrication/modification is complete. The paint job leaves a lot to be desired. I'd like to sell this hood since I don't need the opening in the scoop where the supercharger used to stick out. Anyone need a S10 hood with a 6" Harwood cowl induction scoop cutout for supercharger / dual Holleys? :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/digitaljunkie/Drag%20Racing/blazer_front_view_low_angle_b.jpg

10degreesbtdc
Jun 14th, 2009, 04:32 AM
And as far as the color of the wax or sealant is concerned, that's not going to be an issue because the color gets pretty much left behind in the residue, which you buffed off as excess. So that won't show up on your clay. If it were left behind for your clay or whatever, then don't you think your car would have a light yellow or lavender tint to it (based on the color of the LSP)? If that were the case, it would be especially noticeable on light colored cars, like white or silver.

I understand what your saying Ciera. I'm not worried about this. I'm just trying to answer this for myself and for the member that posed the original question, mainly because I had too much time on my hands this weekend. Doesn't really matter since I always wax or seal after washing/polishing anyway. I see this as kind of a lab experiment rather than a problem.

As far as waxes/sealants leaving a tint on paint, don't some waxes leave a warm glow? Isn't that the yellow Carnauba? I don't have a white vehicle or I'd try a test using M21 and Gold Wax to see if there is a noticeable tint compared to an unwaxed area. Speaking of tint, when I apply a speed glaze made by a local distributor of OPT products, the cloth is colored orangish/yellow. If I clean the paint with IPA a week or so later the cloth is also "stained" though a much lighter orangish/yellow. So not all of the color in this "wax" is removed during application and buffing. At least, not with this brand. Can't tell if it leaves a tint on the vehicle since it's medium silver color.

CieraSL
Jun 14th, 2009, 09:00 AM
As far as waxes/sealants leaving a tint on paint, don't some waxes leave a warm glow? Isn't that the yellow Carnauba? I don't have a white vehicle or I'd try a test using M21 and Gold Wax to see if there is a noticeable tint compared to an unwaxed area. Speaking of tint, when I apply a speed glaze made by a local distributor of OPT products, the cloth is colored orangish/yellow. If I clean the paint with IPA a week or so later the cloth is also "stained" though a much lighter orangish/yellow. So not all of the color in this "wax" is removed during application and buffing. At least, not with this brand. Can't tell if it leaves a tint on the vehicle since it's medium silver color.

I think a lot of what we're talking about in this thread is mere speculation, and cannot be proved or a surefire answer arrived at by the average Joe. All these various aspects of claying, cleaning, polishing, waxing, etc., would have to be rigorously tested in a lab in controlled environments. All we can do is say, "I think this" or "I think that." If you're following the recommended advice of the pros here on MOL and you're getting the results you want, then I don't think the issue of proving anything one way or the other is going to matter one bit. I wish I had an answer to you with regards to your test - unfortunately I don't. Last night at the dealership we had an '04 Isuzu Rodeo that is being sold and the customer is picking it up on Monday. It had gone to an outside detail shop but they hadn't clayed it, so some areas of the paint felt like sandpaper. Being a car crazy guy and being it was slow and I had nothing else to do, I went ahead and washed it, clayed it, re-washed it, and then waxed it, also finishing prepping it for final delivery. It still had swirls and stuff, but we don't have anything for polishing and it wasn't a primary concern (at least not to anybody besides me) so I had to let that go. Anyway, my point is, after claying it and giving it its second wash, the water beading was no different than before claying. Why I don't know. But you knew it had been clayed, and you could see the grime coming out of the paint onto the clay bar, so obviously some of the wax had to be removed. Again, all this is speculation.

Your other question was with regards to tinting with certain waxes. I believe that that is the case, especially with lighter colors. I like topping NXT 2.0 with #26 on my car, because #26 makes the paint just glow and really makes the metal flake pop out. I had put 3M Performance Finish on my parents' 2000 white Honda Odyssey, and I decided to do a little test and try some Auto Magic carnauba wax (No. 89 XP Express Wax to be exact) on the hood to see if it would make a difference. Surprise, surprise, it actually made the hood a tad darker than the rest of the van. Here's a pic:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/P4170315.jpg

Given, that's not the best pic since it is in the garage, but it's easier to see the darker "tinting" under the fluorescents than in the daylight.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/P5040435.jpg

Of course, it could be just a mental thing and I could just think it's darker :D. But I think carnauba does make a difference. Just my thoughts...

02zx9r
Jun 18th, 2009, 11:52 AM
Beading is a product of surface tension. Is it possible that the reason water beads well after claying is not because wax is still present but because the surface is now very smooth?

I did my room mates 94 (i believe) Ford Escort, the first day I just washed with dawn, clay barred it real good. It was exceptionally smooth. I did not get around to the correcting work for a few days after because of the weather. But it rained the next day after I washed and clay barred it, and he called me saying the wax job I did is beading like crazy. I told him I have not waxed it yet, just washed it and used a clay bar on it.

I'm with you on this one Al.

Mikejl
Jun 18th, 2009, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by akimel
Beading is a product of surface tension. Is it possible that the reason water beads well after claying is not because wax is still present but because the surface is now very smooth?



I did my room mates 94 (i believe) Ford Escort, the first day I just washed with dawn, clay barred it real good. It was exceptionally smooth. I did not get around to the correcting work for a few days after because of the weather. But it rained the next day after I washed and clay barred it, and he called me saying the wax job I did is beading like crazy. I told him I have not waxed it yet, just washed it and used a clay bar on it.

I'm with you on this one Al.

Hey now, no fair you and Al double teaming me. :D

The last thing you say you did was clay. That leaves open the probability that there was a coat of QD the surface which will increase surface tension and promote beading as mentioned in previous posts above.

The real test would have been if you had washed the car after claying.

Mike

Chop
Jun 19th, 2009, 10:06 AM
Quote:

Hey now, no fair you and Al double teaming me. :D

The last thing you say you did was clay. That leaves open the probability that there was a coat of QD the surface which will increase surface tension and promote beading as mentioned in previous posts above.

The real test would have been if you had washed the car after claying.

Mike

I am also on the side that the beading came from QD on the surface.

Calais
Jun 19th, 2009, 07:27 PM
That leaves open the probability that there was a coat of QD the surface which will increase surface tension and promote beading as mentioned in previous posts above.

The real test would have been if you had washed the car after claying.

Mike

I've washed my car right after claying and not waxed it and it beads water like crazy.

Mikejl
Jun 20th, 2009, 06:42 AM
I've washed my car right after claying and not waxed it and it beads water like crazy.
Me too. :) That is what prompted me to start the thread.

02zx9r included an IPA wipe down in his procedure. This insured there was no wax left on the car.

Mike

Mikejl
Jul 13th, 2009, 07:19 AM
I finally have my answer.:) I decided to clay and wax the car earlier this week. It was the perfect time to find out if claying will remove all the wax. My Camry wasn't too bad the with bonded contaminants this time around, but I did the whole car anyway and spent about 45 minute on it using Meguiar's Smooth Surface Clay and QD.

Following the claying, I washed the car again thoroughly using:

Gold Class Car Wash.
1 Bucket (Car was washed less than an hour earlier with the 2bm).
1 Clean Meguiar's micofiber Wash mitt.
CR Spotless DI Water.

Here is what it looked like after the rinse. Some pretty nice beading. Looked to me like there was some wax left on that paint.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/1259/After_Clay_and_Wash.JPG




The next step in the test was to give the paint a good IPA wipe down. I used a 50/50 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water on the trunk going over it several times.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/1259/Post_Alcohol_Wipe.JPG


Here is the final picture and I really wasn't expecting this. This is what my stripped down Toyota paint looks like when sprayed down with water.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/1259/Water_Beading_After_Alcohol_Wipe.JPG


The water actually beaded better on the right side and just rolled off the paint fast.

Here is what I am taking away from this test.

1. Claying DOES remove wax.
2. Beading IS an indication of surface tension NOT an indication of wax or sealant protection present.
Note: I say that with the caveat that if a person knows how his bare paint reacts to water, then beading could be an indicator of wax or sealant present.
3. My Toyota paint doan need no stinkin' wax to bead like crazy!

Mike

Andy M.
Jul 13th, 2009, 02:34 PM
:update:bump1:update

CieraSL
Jul 13th, 2009, 03:46 PM
I've clayed some cars and seen the water completely sheet on them with absolutely no beading, and I've clayed some cars and seen the water bead on them and it looks like it just got waxed. I'm not sure why that is, or why it varies from car to car. I know I'm right when I say that water beading is not the only indication that there is still wax on the car. I suppose that's why you just have to wax every few months, so you don't have to question whether or not there is indeed wax on the car. Between claying and polishing, all the wax will be removed.


I know I've already posted in this thread, but a thought just came to me, so I'm going to throw it out there and you can tell me if you agree or not. I think that whether or not claying removes wax has a lot to do with how often the car is waxed. For example, if the car is waxed every 3 - 4 months, and the car is clayed (and the paint is cleaned) with every wax, then I would venture that most, if not all of the wax will be removed. However, if the car gets waxed more frequently, say once every 4 - 6 or 8 weeks, then I don't think all the wax will be removed. I clayed and waxed my car a couple of days ago, and I didn't really notice a difference in beading during my initial wash and the wash following claying. Now, my car gets waxed pretty often, so I think that factors into it. However, my parents' 1990 Accord gets waxed every 3 months or so, and after claying there is almost no beading whatsoever. Just a thought...:thinking1


I think your reasoning has merit and you may be on to what I am seeing.

I would like to throw in with the other side because of all the heavy hitters that say it does remove the wax, but I just can't get myself convinced. Unfortunately there are no verified lab test data one way or the other.

By the way I did clay again my car a couple of weeks ago, but didn't have time to do a controlled test with pictures as I had to get it ready to go to a wedding. I did see the same beading at the post claying wash as in the past.

Mike

I think that this is the deal - with repeated waxings on a regular basis, the "oils" if you will get absorbed into the paint, so claying removes the wax that is on top of the paint but not the "oils" in the paint. Those oils in the paint is what causes the water beading. It could also have something to do with the type of wax used - whether it is a carnauba or a synthetic sealant. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that most synthetic sealants have some level of silicone in them, correct? Which is why they usually say "not body shop safe". Water can't dissolve silicone, so it causes lots of surface tension, whether there is any LSP on the surface or not. I have almost always used a sealant on my car versus a carnauba, so I always have beading both before and after claying. I think a good test would be this: find a car (or discarded hood from a car) that had never been waxed or hadn't been waxed in a long time, that way you know there is nothing that can mess up the test. Clay both sides of the hood to remove bonded contaminants. Apply a synthetic sealant (like NXT 2.0 or M21) to one side of the hood, and apply a carnauba wax (like M26 or Gold Class to the other side. In 3-4 months, come back, clay the hood again, and see which side beads water more, or if they both bead the same. Just a guess here. :thinking1

Mikejl
Jul 13th, 2009, 04:10 PM
I think that this is the deal - with repeated waxings on a regular basis, the "oils" if you will get absorbed into the paint, so claying removes the wax that is on top of the paint but not the "oils" in the paint. Those oils in the paint is what causes the water beading. It could also have something to do with the type of wax used - whether it is a carnauba or a synthetic sealant. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that most synthetic sealants have some level of silicone in them, correct? Which is why they usually say "not body shop safe". Water can't dissolve silicone, so it causes lots of surface tension, whether there is any LSP on the surface or not. I have almost always used a sealant on my car versus a carnauba, so I always have beading both before and after claying. I think a good test would be this: find a car (or discarded hood from a car) that had never been waxed or hadn't been waxed in a long time, that way you know there is nothing that can mess up the test. Clay both sides of the hood to remove bonded contaminants. Apply a synthetic sealant (like NXT 2.0 or M21) to one side of the hood, and apply a carnauba wax (like M26 or Gold Class to the other side. In 3-4 months, come back, clay the hood again, and see which side beads water more, or if they both bead the same. Just a guess here. :thinking1
Interesting. But don't you think that the 50/50 IPA wipe down I did equates to paint that hasn't been waxed or sealed in a long time? I think it equals wax or sealant free paint.

Shane, have we switched sides on this debate? :)

Mike

CieraSL
Jul 13th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Interesting. But don't you think that the 50/50 IPA wipe down I did equates to paint that hasn't been waxed or sealed in a long time? I think it equals wax or sealant free paint.

Shane, have we switched sides on this debate? :)

Mike

Like I said before, there are so many ifs, ands, and buts involved in this debate that I'm sure it would be extremely hard to find a surefire answer given all the variables. To break down what I said, I still believe that claying removes wax but not the oils in the paint. As far as the 50/50 wipedown goes, water and alcohol don't mix, so the IPA solution probably creates a bit of surface tension itself. If you did a full strength wipedown for long enough you'd probably pull the "oils" out of the paint, but I don't see why you'd want to. Again, just my thoughts on the subject.

Mikejl
Jul 13th, 2009, 05:40 PM
Like I said before, there are so many ifs, ands, and buts involved in this debate that I'm sure it would be extremely hard to find a surefire answer given all the variables. To break down what I said, I still believe that claying removes wax but not the oils in the paint. As far as the 50/50 wipedown goes, water and alcohol don't mix, so the IPA solution probably creates a bit of surface tension itself. If you did a full strength wipedown for long enough you'd probably pull the "oils" out of the paint, but I don't see why you'd want to. Again, just my thoughts on the subject.
OK, you covered a lot of points. Let me break them down a little:

1. Claying removes wax.
We both agree on that one.

2. Claying does not remove the oils in the paint
I don't know where these oils come from unless it's from the wax. I need more info.

3. Water and Alcohol don't mix
I didn't need them to stay mixed. I just needed to dilute the alcohol for the short term.

4. ...the IPA solution probably creates a bit of surface tension itself.
I don't see how. It was completely evaporated by the time I got around to spraying the trunk with water. See the second picture a few posts above.

5. If you did a full strength wipedown for long enough you'd probably pull the "oils" out of the paint
I wouldn't have thought that factory baked and cured paint would have any liquid oils left on its surface. I'm not saying there isn't, just that you will need to educate me on this.

Mike

CieraSL
Jul 13th, 2009, 06:12 PM
OK, you covered a lot of points. Let me break them down a little:

1. Claying removes wax.
We both agree on that one.

2. Claying does not remove the oils in the paint
I don't know where these oils come from unless it's from the wax. I need more info.

3. Water and Alcohol don't mix
I didn't need them to stay mixed. I just needed to dilute the alcohol for the short term.

4. ...the IPA solution probably creates a bit of surface tension itself.
I don't see how. It was completely evaporated by the time I got around to spraying the trunk with water. See the second picture a few posts above.

5. If you did a full strength wipedown for long enough you'd probably pull the "oils" out of the paint
I wouldn't have thought that factory baked and cured paint would have any liquid oils left on its surface. I'm not saying there isn't, just that you will need to educate me on this.

Mike

Well Mike, I wish I had an answer for you. I don't. Most of what I've stated in this thread has been based on my own personal observations and experiences and therefore has been speculation on my behalf. Which is pretty much all this thread has been - speculation. With regards to the IPA wipedown, I think that the alcohol in the IPA solution would have left some surface tension, even though it had evaporated. I have done some compounding/polishing on areas of cars that did not have any wax on them, yet when the area was sprayed down with water there was water beading in that area but not the surrounding area, which leads me to believe that almost anything you use on the paint will leave some sort of "residue" if you will behind, although certainly some will leave more than others, such as: wax will leave behind more surface tension than polish, because that is what it is designed to do. I don't have the slightest idea what the primary components of wax are - I'm not a chemist. But there are certain oils (haven't come up with a better term yet) in there that get into the pores of the paint and create surface tension if the car is waxed on a continuous basis, IMO. I don't know. I'm running out of things to say in this thread. :chuckle1

Mikejl
Jul 13th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Well Mike, I wish I had an answer for you. I don't. Most of what I've stated in this thread has been based on my own personal observations and experiences and therefore has been speculation on my behalf. Which is pretty much all this thread has been - speculation. With regards to the IPA wipedown, I think that the alcohol in the IPA solution would have left some surface tension, even though it had evaporated. I have done some compounding/polishing on areas of cars that did not have any wax on them, yet when the area was sprayed down with water there was water beading in that area but not the surrounding area, which leads me to believe that almost anything you use on the paint will leave some sort of "residue" if you will behind, although certainly some will leave more than others, such as: wax will leave behind more surface tension than polish, because that is what it is designed to do. I don't have the slightest idea what the primary components of wax are - I'm not a chemist. But there are certain oils (haven't come up with a better term yet) in there that get into the pores of the paint and create surface tension if the car is waxed on a continuous basis, IMO. I don't know. I'm running out of things to say in this thread. :chuckle1
Shane,

Here is what I think. My paint is still new (a year old) and new paint even bare will have good surface tension and bead water. I think as long I take care of the paint and frequently replace the sacrificial coating of wax or sealant before it is gone, my bare paint will be able to bead water for many years to come.

I think when people neglect their paint, the paint surface starts to break down and the paint loses the surface tension it had when it was factory fresh and will no longer bead water.

Maybe the Mods can change my vote and we can retire this thread. :)

Mike

kesawi
Aug 2nd, 2009, 02:57 PM
3. Water and Alcohol don't mix
I didn't need them to stay mixed. I just needed to dilute the alcohol for the short term.


Not getting involved in the argument, but just a technical correction. Water and alcohol do mix due to the prescence of hydrogen bonding between the alcohol and water molecules. If they didn't mix then you'd see layering in a bottle of scotch or other alcoholic drink.

mattaleca
Aug 3rd, 2009, 09:50 AM
"There are two different grades of clay currently available to the public. One is a medium grade detailing clay designed to clean the vehicle once or twice a year. This grade of clay removes wax along with anything else on the vehicle. (non-quote: this would probably be like Meguiar's Professional Detailing Clay - Mild)
Your other option is a fine grade that’s relatively new to the industry....it's a favorite of enthusiasts who prefer to clay as often as needed to keep that slick finish. This detailing clay removes everything the medium clay removes and it is gentle enough to use monthly or as needed for spot cleaning. (non-quote: this is probably like the clay in the Smooth Surface Clay kit)

Why can't you use the Mild Clay as often. I realize that the Aggresive will haze and Micro-mar the finish but shouldn't the Mild be safe to use monthly, daily, hourly, etc.:chuckle1

hacker-pschorr
Aug 3rd, 2009, 06:43 PM
Well now, this thread sure has me questioning my usage of medium clay to remove bug pieces while on the road.

:scratchhead1

Michael Stoops
Sep 25th, 2009, 08:30 AM
Regarding regular use of the C2000 Mild Detailing Clay - while it should be just fine for regular use, most people don't want to spend almost $30 on clay alone, plus if you're claying regularly the amount of bonded contaminants should be very light anyway, so the consumer clay should be sufficient to remove it. But if you prefer the blue mild C2000 clay there shouldn't be any problems using it regularly. Is it removing more wax than the consumer clay? Ah, the $64,000 question! When is the last time you waxed - how much wax do you really have left on the car anyway? If you're getting a lot of contaminants bonding to the paint, you're either exposing the car to a lot of crud and/or not waxing and maintaining the finish as often as you might. Of course there are always those unforeseen circumstances like parking downwind from a building being spray painted, but in that case you need some serious claying anyway.

For those of you doing IPA wipe down tests and still seeing a lot of beading, try washing the car with even a quality car wash soap after the wipe down. We mentioned this little test in post #25 of this thread, so at the risk of repetition: We did a small wax comparison test here last year where we sectioned a hood into 4 areas, with one being a "control" area. We use Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner to remove any wax that may have been on the surface, applied 3 different waxes but left the 4th section bare. A couple of weeks later, even after going through a couple days of light rain, all 4 sections of the hood beaded water when the car was first rinsed down. Certainly the section treated only with DC1 was not "protected" but the water would still bead. Two weeks later!!! Following a wash with Gold Class the DC1 section no longer beaded - the water just laid there in a sheet. Obviously something that was removed in the wash process altered the surface tension, eliminating the beading properties. Lots of different ways to "clean" a surface, huh?

scott0999
Oct 4th, 2009, 09:35 AM
I didnt know the claybar would remove wax. in the past I've been using dawn dish soap if I needed to remove wax

is claying a better idea? I usually end up claying anyway so if it does it all in 1 shot might as well forget using damn from now on lol

Houckster
Oct 25th, 2009, 05:43 AM
How much wax is removed when claying may well be partially a function of how well the wax was applied. If the surface was clean when the wax was applied and if a glaze was used to maximize adherence of the wax, the clay bar might not remove much wax at all since it seems that clay's benefit is to remove irregularities in the surface.

It is probably logical to assume that whether claying removes wax is situational.

Here's two things I'm going to do the next time I have an opportunity to clay my ride: 1) I'll use fresh clay and go over a clean waxed surface to see if there's any change in the color of the clay; 2) I'll just clay part of the surface and compare the beading of the two areas.

jfelbab
Oct 25th, 2009, 06:16 AM
My experience is that clay will remove some, maybe even most, of the wax or sealant. I'd suggest the correct term might be compromise. Clay will compromise any wax or sealant coating. I would not assume that it will remove all of the wax or sealant. As clay is mostly gliding across your paint on a thin layer of lubricant, sheering off things that are sticking out above the surface, it will remove some of the wax or sealant but most likely not all. If you want to be sure that it is all removed I'd use a paint cleaner.

Michael Stoops
Nov 3rd, 2009, 12:51 PM
Here's two things I'm going to do the next time I have an opportunity to clay my ride: 1) I'll use fresh clay and go over a clean waxed surface to see if there's any change in the color of the clay; 2) I'll just clay part of the surface and compare the beading of the two areas.
It is unlikely that you'll see any change in color of the clay due to wax being removed from the surface. As for point 2, what are you going to use as a clay lube? Virtually any quick detail spray is going to leave enough of something behind that there will be a change of surface tension relative to fully bare paint, and that alone will likely cause water beading. Remember, beading alone is not a sign of protection. You can use a basic cleaner/polish to effectively remove any wax or sealant on the surface but it you'll still bead water like crazy, at least for a while.

Aussie Glossy
Nov 14th, 2009, 08:42 PM
imho claying does not remove wax because I've given many cars some serious claying for hours and gone to machine correction and the wax is hindering the products
That's why I use a neutralisation system and silicone removers before I start correcting and polishing or non abrasive paint restoration

jdmh22
Dec 24th, 2009, 12:57 AM
ok i sorry to bring this thread back form the dead but i have a question. I got done detailing my car yesterday, did the wash, paint cleaner, polish, and wax process. But know i can feel some spot on my car's paint need to be clay. So the question is after i clay my car do i have to polish the part that i just clay again and then apply wax or just apply wax after clay. Thank you in advance

TOGWT
Dec 24th, 2009, 09:13 AM
Will detailer’s clay remove the applied paint film surface protection?

It will remove an organic wax product; any oxidized polymer will be removed; but not any polymer that has formed a molecular bond with the paint surface

See also - Article on Detailer’s Automotive Clay - http://tinyurl.com/yfly44e

TH0001
Jan 10th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Will detailer’s clay remove the applied paint film surface protection?

It will remove an organic wax product; any oxidized polymer will be removed; but not any polymer that has formed a molecular bond with the paint surface

See also - Article on Detailer’s Automotive Clay - http://tinyurl.com/yfly44e

I would love to see the tests you performed to make this statement.

Mikejl
Jan 17th, 2010, 02:33 PM
Here is what I think. My paint is still new (a year old) and new paint even bare will have good surface tension and bead water. I think as long I take care of the paint and frequently replace the sacrificial coating of wax or sealant before it is gone, my bare paint will be able to bead water for many years to come.

I think when people neglect their paint, the paint surface starts to break down and the paint loses the surface tension it had when it was factory fresh and will no longer bead water.

Maybe the Mods can change my vote and we can retire this thread. :)

Mike
I am quoting myself above because when I wrote that I believed that an IPA wipe would take the surface down to the bare paint. The above erroneous assumption was my reasoning as to why I was still getting beading after an IPA wipe. Since then 2 events have happened to reaffirm my original beliefs that caused me to start this thread in the first place.

The first is from the Wax Thickness Testing (http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=127943&highlight=wax +thickness&page=5) Thread over at Detailing World froum.

I copied this from post #50:

2)Initial thickness:- 24.2 nm
Wipe with iso-propanol, remaining thickness = 7.2 nm
This solvent left a distinct haze over the wiped area, so I stopped here.

(For those of you that haven't read that very interesting thread. The 24.2 nm is the wax thickness on one of his test pieces).

This explains why I continued to get beading even after I did an IPA wipe.

The second is from the paint correction I did on my Camry over the holidays. I did everything the same as detailed in earlier posts with one addition.

Process
Wash
Clay
Wash (Good beading again after claying)
Polish with UC and M205
No IPA wipe (not a part of my normal process)
Added a wash step here:
Wash to removed all polish residue before LSP - NO BEADING at Rinse

I stand by my original conclusion which is I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

Mike

Mike Phillips
Jan 29th, 2010, 09:22 AM
I stand by my original conclusion which is I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

Mike

Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,

Downward pressure
Number of passes
Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
Aggressiveness of the clay
Lubricity of the clay lube

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...

:laughing:


Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!


:D

Mike Phillips
Jan 29th, 2010, 09:27 AM
I would love to see the tests you performed to make this statement.


:laughing:


Even if there were tests, there's too many variables as I listed in my previous reply to make any testing have any value.

In the real world, if I clay my car I'm going to re-apply a coat of wax or paint sealant.

It just makes good common sense and it's so easy to do, and in fact if yo like your car and take care of it anyways, then it's kind of fun to do.

:)

79elcamino
Jan 29th, 2010, 11:06 AM
:laughing:


Even if there were tests, there's too many variables as i listed in my previous reply to make any testing have any value.

In the real world, if i clay my car i'm going to re-apply a coat of wax or paint sealant.

It just makes good common sense and it's so easy to do, and in fact if yo like your car and take care of it anyways, then it's kind of fun to do.

:)

true story!

searle
Jan 29th, 2010, 12:21 PM
And, having taken the time to clay a car, that is the right time for a light cleaner. Clearly after clay+cleaner it is time for glaze+wax, nothing of the old stuff remaining.

Mikejl
Jan 29th, 2010, 08:53 PM
Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,

Downward pressure
Number of passes
Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
Aggressiveness of the clay
Lubricity of the clay lube

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...

:laughing:


Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!


:D
Mike,

I agree 100%. I would never advocate not waxing after claying any car. I'm just pointing out that claying is not a viable method of stripping wax.

Looking over my last statement, I should have wrote it like this,

... I'm sure there is some complete wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but the clay only compromises the wax where it travels over already smooth surfaces.

:)

Mike

TOGWT
Jan 30th, 2010, 02:23 AM
I would love to see the tests you performed to make this statement.

Detailer’s clay is an abrasive product. The wax / sealant protection film is is probably less than 0.1 µ (microns) or 0.000 004 inch) thick, most of the time the abrasives will cause micro marring of the paint surface. Like grit paper or a pad and polish it isn’t selective, it doesn’t just cause scratches where there are imbedded contaminates or surface scratches, but abrades wherever the abasive comes into contact with the surface.

searle
Jan 30th, 2010, 08:37 AM
Detailer’s clay is an abrasive product. The wax / sealant protection film is is probably less than 0.1 µ (microns) or 0.000 004 inch) thick, most of the time the abrasives will cause micro marring of the paint surface. Like grit paper or a pad and polish it isn’t selective, it doesn’t just cause scratches where there are imbedded contaminates or surface scratches, but abrades wherever the abasive comes into contact with the surface.

Agreed. Most folks have no idea how incredibly thin the actual wax/sealant coat is. You wipe on the wax and that is relatively thick, then it dries and you wipe off the excess (almost all of it). Only a terribly thin coat remains behind. And you cannot "layer" multiple coats, every new one and wipedown takes the layer back to the initial thickness (or "thinness").

sleker
Jun 5th, 2012, 11:58 PM
I when to school for auto body.... And in the class we leared that it dosent remove all... But u should use dish soap only in the case ur gonna re wax or clay cuz is strips every thing off sept pain and clear coat so id say if ur gonna clay use dish soap and clay the wax or sealent

Michael Stoops
Jun 6th, 2012, 07:00 AM
I when to school for auto body.... And in the class we leared that it dosent remove all... But u should use dish soap only in the case ur gonna re wax or clay cuz is strips every thing off sept pain and clear coat so id say if ur gonna clay use dish soap and clay the wax or sealent
How much wax will be removed by clay, or even with dish soap, depends on several factors. Carnauba waxes are not as durable as synthetic polymers so they should more easily be fully removed by either process. The age of the wax coating also plays a role: a fresh coat of wax is going to be not only thicker than an older, degraded coat, but more durable as well. This is especially true of synthetic polymer sealants, so much so that a fresh application of such a protectant can actually slow down a wet sanding process initially! And then of course there's the aggressiveness of the clay itself, and the dilution ratio of the dish detergent.

It is pretty rare, however, that someone needs to clay their car immediately following an application of a wax or sealant. Sure, you could detail on Sunday and be exposed to some nasty overspray on Monday, but that's pretty rare. Annoying as heck, sure, but rare. In the vast majority of cases, when someone determines that it's time to clay their car it's usually been a while since they waxed it. If it's been three or four months since you last wax application, there isn't a heck of a lot of wax left anyway, so what is left should easily be removed with clay or even a light paint cleaner.