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VoicesInMyHead
May 5th, 2009, 07:58 AM
So, maybe it's me. Getting up in years and having spent a lot of time in the effects of gravity, I have come to a different view on what I want out of the affects of gravity on water. Living in what some would consider to be Arrakis / Dune / Desert Planet... dust is a constant presence everywhere (without the benefit of the spice Melange, which we all know extends life, expands consciousness and is vital to space travel :nervous1 ).

Water beading does nothing but create nice little dust craters that emulate the surface of the moon on every square millimeter of my vehicles.:furious1This is not just an “after washing” issue, but also if you unknowingly park next to a sprinkler at the mall or it rains while your paint is exposed to the sky.

Some may want so see the beads as “proof” there is protection on the vehicle... well, I don't need proof. My OCD knows for a fact, that I take care of the paint and I would venture a guess that most of us Car Crazy MOL members keep regular protection on our paint regardless of any beading.Scottwax4

I would prefer to avoid water beading. I want water to sheet off my vehicle, and appear as clean as possible when out and about, no matter what that cruel dominatrix called Mother Nature chooses to spank us with.:sad1

So, who else swims against the water beading current in the river of detailing? And why do you want or not want to see those little domes of contaminate magnets? Such as, less beads after washing, means less chance to instill swirls during the drying process due to less surface area that needs a towel.

Thoughts?:icon_bolt1

J. A. Michaels
May 5th, 2009, 09:19 AM
With the sheeting of water less work in the long run. I am all for it.

Chop
May 5th, 2009, 10:42 AM
Beads = Looks Cool. Reassures of protection still in the paint

Sheets = May help reducing swirls and water spots

Tuck91
May 5th, 2009, 04:02 PM
I like the look of beading, you will at least look good in some degree during the pouring rain by beading.

Ever see other cars where the rain just about dries on impact?

Jeff U
May 5th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Is there a way to have a well prepared, waxed surface not bead?

A google search produced the following on "why does water bead ?"

Why does water bead up better on a well waxed car?
(Lansing State Journal, August 10, 1994)

Water is a polar molecule, composed of two hydrogen atoms bonded to a single oxygen atom. Water molecules like to stick to one another, like small magnets. This is called cohesion.

Water molecules also can be attracted to other substances, such as metal or dirt, especially if they have some static charge on them. This is called adhesion.

Lastly, some substances are not at all attracted to water, and even repel it. These include oils, fats and waxes; all of which are called non-polar substances.

When water falls on an unwaxed car, the forces of adhesion are almost as strong as the forces of cohesion, and the water spreads out. Furthermore, if the painted surface is not perfectly smooth, water can be channeled for some distance along tiny ridges and valleys. This is particularly true if there is dirt on the car. The dirt itself may be charged, and attract water even more. These tiny flaws may not be readily visible without a magnifying glass, but you can sense a rough surface when you run your hand over it. On such a rough surface, drops of water appear flat and wide and often uneven.

Car wax, when applied properly to a clean car, fills in the larger scratches and layers the whole car. The chemical structure of the wax prevents water from penetrating to the surface of the car. Because the wax itself is hydrophobic (literally "fears water"), the forces of adhesion are much less than the forces of cohesion. So, water is more likely to stick to itself, and water beads up higher and rounder than on an unwaxed car.

Markus Kleis
May 5th, 2009, 06:03 PM
I read a lot about people wishing for a product that didn't bead, and simply sheeted only. I understand why people would wish that, but it isn't practical... here's why: beading will occur on a properly waxed surface (as explained above from the Google search), but it is unreasonable to expect water to be sheeted off of surfaces that are flat, or close to flat. An outside force such as gravity or wind is needed to take the beads and create a sheeting action.

A quality wax/sealant like M21 2.0/NXT 2.0/Ultimate Quik Wax will leave a surface that will bead on horizontal surfaces, and if the vehicle is driven the water should bunch together and sheet away. The sheeting will naturally occur on the sides of the car where gravity can do its part.

I also read some people making claims that beading due to wax is actually harmful because (as they claim), it [the beads] creates water spotting. Not true! When your dusty/dirty car is rained on and the water is forced into beads, which later dry, you are not creating "water spots" that wouldn't have occurred just the same, just in different shapes. The wax simply forces the water together, into beads, which consequently can dry in circular patterns. On an un-waxed car the same dirt and water deposits will happen, they will just cover the entire surface of the car evenly, giving the false impression of being "better" due to a lack of water spots.

Personally, I'll take the waxed surface where the dirt forms circular deposits because I know that when it comes time for me to wash the car the deposits will be removed with less effort, and this induce fewer swirls.

VoicesInMyHead
May 5th, 2009, 07:21 PM
With the sheeting of water less work in the long run. I am all for it.

:doublethumbsup2


Beads = Looks Cool. Reassures of protection still in the paint

Sheets = May help reducing swirls and water spots


I like the look of beading, you will at least look good in some degree during the pouring rain by beading.

Ever see other cars where the rain just about dries on impact?

Hmmm... never thought beads look cool... i'll have to ponder that...

VoicesInMyHead
May 5th, 2009, 07:25 PM
Is there a way to have a well prepared, waxed surface not bead?

A google search produced the following on "why does water bead ?"

Why does water bead up better on a well waxed car?
(Lansing State Journal, August 10, 1994)

I believe I saw a Meguiars demo on the tv about how well water was sheeting off a painted panel and almost looked like it went "uphill", I'll have to search for that.
:carwash

Megafast13
May 5th, 2009, 07:29 PM
I believe I saw a Meguiars demo on the tv about how well water was sheeting off a painted panel and almost looked like it went "uphill", I'll have to search for that.
:carwash

I know what your talking about. It is on Jay Leno's Garage I believe. Or Maybe in the Meguiars video gallery on the main site.

Carfire
May 5th, 2009, 07:40 PM
Sheeting, Less Work.
Then the car is dry.
I want a product to work in the rain though, not one that sheets just with the hose, but one with the rain, so the car is mainly dry. Although right now with NXT 2.0 so beads combine and fly off at 45 MPH.

VoicesInMyHead
May 5th, 2009, 07:48 PM
I read a lot about people wishing for a product that didn't bead, and simply sheeted only. I understand why people would wish that, but it isn't practical... here's why: beading will occur on a properly waxed surface (as explained above from the Google search), but it is unreasonable to expect water to be sheeted off of surfaces that are flat, or close to flat. An outside force such as gravity or wind is needed to take the beads and create a sheeting action.

I am quite aware of gravity (as stated in my OP and every morning by the bathroom scale :nervous1)... however, I am unaware of very many truly "flat" surfaces on vehicles (although some do come close!). And by flat I will assume you mean level or perpendicular to the ground, since you are relating force to it. And, I completely understand the issue, and was not advocating that a surface could be completely clear and clean, but I believe the thousands of spots could be minimized.


A quality wax/sealant like M21 2.0/NXT 2.0/Ultimate Quik Wax will leave a surface that will bead on horizontal surfaces, and if the vehicle is driven the water should bunch together and sheet away. The sheeting will naturally occur on the sides of the car where gravity can do its part.Unless you are in a situation as I described in my OP, and not driving it.:steering


I also read some people making claims that beading due to wax is actually harmful because (as they claim), it [the beads] creates water spotting. Not true! When your dusty/dirty car is rained on and the water is forced into beads, which lar dry, you are not creating "water spots" that wouldn't have occurred just the same, just in different shapes.I never stated that rain would cause water spots. I stated my issues was it leaving dust craters from the dust that had been captured by the beaded water. The shape is not really an issue either, it's the fact they are left behind in multitude.yikes


The wax simply forces the water together, into beads, which consequently can dry in circular patterns. On an un-waxed car the same dirt and water deposits will happen, they will just cover the entire surface of the car evenly, giving the false impression of being "better" due to a lack of water spots.umm... ok, never mentioned any issues with an un-waxed (or unprotected) paint surface.:dunno


Personally, I'll take the waxed surface where the dirt forms circular deposits because I know that when it comes time for me to wash the car the deposits will be removed with less effort, and this induce fewer swirls.Again, I was not discussing an unprotected surface. So, we do agree that a protected surface is best, I just want the best water management from that protection. :heelclick1.gif

Markus Kleis
May 5th, 2009, 11:59 PM
I am quite aware of gravity (as stated in my OP and every morning by the bathroom scale :nervous1)... however, I am unaware of very many truly "flat" surfaces on vehicles (although some do come close!). And by flat I will assume you mean level or perpendicular to the ground, since you are relating force to it. And, I completely understand the issue, and was not advocating that a surface could be completely clear and clean, but I believe the thousands of spots could be minimized.

Unless you are in a situation as I described in my OP, and not driving it.:steering

I never stated that rain would cause water spots. I stated my issues was it leaving dust craters from the dust that had been captured by the beaded water. The shape is not really an issue either, it's the fact they are left behind in multitude.yikes

umm... ok, never mentioned any issues with an un-waxed (or unprotected) paint surface.:dunno

Again, I was not discussing an unprotected surface. So, we do agree that a protected surface is best, I just want the best water management from that protection. :heelclick1.gif

Hi "Voicesinmyhead," let me first state that I am sorry if I offended you in my post, believe it or not, I completely missed your post and my reply was based on the OTHER posts below yours. I must have scrolled down too quickly and totally missed your opening post.

For that, I am sorry... now that I am reading your post and how you too mentioned gravity I can see how you possibly misunderstood what I was writing.

I was writing PURELY in a general sense, and not as a reply to your specific situation. I think that should address/explain basically everything in your reply.

To touch on one part though, (the section I added BOLD to), I guess I would ask what exactly did you have in mind for a possible solution? Or were you mostly just explaining a problem with no known solution?

I myself have thought about it, as I can see why it bothers some people, but as I explained, waxing a surface creates a double-edged sword... there simply is no way that physics and science can solve this problem that I know of. Aside from adding a mechanical arm with a large blower on it that crawls out from under the car after it stops raining to the blow the car off, I think we are stuck with pooled groups of dust! :laughing2

That is one reason I wipe my vehicle down (with care and caution) almost daily...then there is nothing to form "spots" if it does get wet :dancing3

SHYNEMAN123
May 6th, 2009, 02:19 AM
We need a new version of Medallion for paint. Mirror Benz was years ahead of its time.

akimel
May 6th, 2009, 08:53 AM
I am really surprised there aren't more votes for Melange! :laughing2

Ganesa
May 6th, 2009, 10:12 AM
is NXT 2.0 suppose to sheet the water off or more likely to bead??
sheet right?? :D

Markus Kleis
May 6th, 2009, 01:06 PM
is NXT 2.0 suppose to sheet the water off or more likely to bead??
sheet right?? :D

It will bead up on horizontal surfaces, and with vertical surfaces or running water it will tend more to sheet water away.

Ganesa
May 7th, 2009, 05:39 AM
thanks, that means my car is still well waxed now :D

Mikejl
May 19th, 2009, 06:18 AM
I'm with Ron. I do want protection, but no beading. I would like the water to roll off the surfaces with very little resistance.

Earlier this year I had a good coat of 26 on my Camry and we had one of our infrequent rainstorms. After work I was marveling at the fantastic beading on my car :). I figured it would blow off during the 2 1/2 mile drive home. No such luck. There was still 90% of the water left beaded on my car. :(

By the way, given the choices, I had to vote for Melange.

Mike

VoicesInMyHead
May 19th, 2009, 08:02 AM
By the way, given the choices, I had to vote for Melange.

Can't blame ya there! When you get the ability to fold space, let me know... I may have a trip in mind.....:nervous1

:chuckle1
:spot:spot:spot:spot:spot:spot

JohanD
Oct 5th, 2009, 11:35 AM
I'm with Ron. I do want protection, but no beading. I would like the water to roll off the surfaces with very little resistance.

Earlier this year I had a good coat of 26 on my Camry and we had one of our infrequent rainstorms. After work I was marveling at the fantastic beading on my car :). I figured it would blow off during the 2 1/2 mile drive home. No such luck. There was still 90% of the water left beaded on my car. :(

By the way, given the choices, I had to vote for Melange.

Mike

I like the look of the beading.. but like you said I would like it to blow off easily when driving.

davey g-force
Oct 5th, 2009, 06:09 PM
I'm with the OP. I've often said that beading is a pain for that same reason.
I just don't think there is much I or anybody can do about it, so I just live with it.

eric_son
Oct 5th, 2009, 06:36 PM
Where I live (Philippines), both beading and sheeting products don't work very well. The dust combined with the sticky grime from car exhaust turns my car's paint into a mobile post-it(tm). Whenever it rains, sure it beads (or sheets), but after the rain stops, most of the car is still covered in water. When it dries, I get sticky white spots. :(

Whether it be by beading or by sheeting, I'd really want to minimize the time that water spends on my car's paint. :)

That's why Melange gets my vote!

TOGWT
Jun 26th, 2010, 05:15 AM
eric son - perhaps you should look into nanotechnology coatings (Lotus effect)

TOGWT
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:38 AM
What is "Melange"?

SHYNEMAN123
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:40 AM
If you live near airports or large factories all the stuff in the air comes down in the rain and lays on the surface of your car in that little droplet of water. As it sits there on the surface and the sun comes out the droplet acts like a magnifying glass and burns those chemicals into your paint. ACID <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>RAIN, Remember as a kid playing outside with a magnifying glass and burning things?</st1:stockticker>

panicdog
Apr 6th, 2011, 01:50 PM
A quality wax/sealant like M21 2.0/NXT 2.0/Ultimate Quik Wax will leave a surface that will bead on horizontal surfaces, and if the vehicle is driven the water should bunch together and sheet away. The sheeting will naturally occur on the sides of the car where gravity can do its part.


MKs statement is true. Water (especially small amounts) will bead on a relatively horizontal plane and water will sheet (especially large amounts) on a relatively vertical surface . Beading and sheeting are both the same thing, it signifies that the surface is resisting water.

I grew up in the Philippines where "taro" plants are abundant. Taro leaves are particularly resistant to water and you will clearly see that taro leaves tend to bead water if they are horizontal and they tend to sheet if they are vertical.

Check out this video of the beading/sheeting action of the taro leaf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPM_7ov19aE&feature=related
FYI: taro leaves have microscopic hairs that lift water and prevent it from sticking to the flat surface of the leaf.