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View Full Version : I wish we had a Meguiar's chemist



akimel
Jul 23rd, 2009, 03:07 PM
I wish we had a Meguiar's chemist who contributed regularly to MOL. I would like some very basic, basic instruction on how things work. For example, how do carnauba waxes bond to the paint surface and how is this different from the way that synthetic sealants bond, etc.

For a short time several years ago, one of Mother's chemists, "Mr. Chemist (http://www.autopia.org/forum/search.php?searchid=3224915)" (aka Craig Burnett), contributed to the Autopia forum. His posts were exceptionally informative and are well worth reading. It would be wonderful if one of Meguiar's chemists would participate in the discussions of MOL and share with us the science that underlies polishes and waxes and all other stuff, etc. Curiosity wants to know. :)

Just a thought ...

Cheers,
Al

Tuck91
Jul 23rd, 2009, 03:21 PM
I agree.

BlueZero
Jul 23rd, 2009, 03:23 PM
That would be cool!

the_invisible
Jul 23rd, 2009, 03:42 PM
Most chemists I had to deal with in work related jobs were eccentric people :D

akimel
Jul 23rd, 2009, 04:15 PM
Most chemists I had to deal with in work related jobs were eccentric people :D

Most detailers I have had to deal with were eccentric people. :)

kaptain_zero
Jul 23rd, 2009, 06:51 PM
Al, I found the following in a short article on DB that sort of addresses your question. I cannot attest to the competency of the source, but he did seem to make good old common sense when it came to cotton vs mf towels in removing the excess of an LSP. Due to the weaker adherence of organic waxes, the less scrubby cotton terry was suggested as more suitable, MF towels, with it's ability to clean greasy finger prints off a mirror with nothing more than a spritz of water, might be equally effective at removing organic waxes rubbed onto paint.


A polymer sealant forms a molecular bond with the paint surface, so when you remove it, you are removing excess product. An organic wax however, doesn’t form a bond with the paint surface but merely adheres to it, forming a chain-link type coating.This article (and more) can be found in the Detailing School section of DB.

Regards

Christian

sleepy
Jul 24th, 2009, 06:33 PM
I think it would be very informative. Would really like to see a chemist on this website once in a while!:xyxthumbs

Sandstone
Jul 24th, 2009, 07:17 PM
One chemical engineer here:dp:. We tend to be eccentric. Chemists are just downright weird...JK.

Ask away but don't expect a quick response bc I don't get email notifications :poke.

LSP's bond to paint with a physical and/or chemical bond. Since most if not all LSP's are wax/chemical combos you would have both types of bonding.

akimel
Jul 24th, 2009, 07:23 PM
One chemical engineer here:dp:.

Yipee!


LSP's bond to paint with a physical and/or chemical bond. Since most if not all LSP's are wax/chemical combos you would have both types of bonding.Would you mind elaborating on this please. I have read that carnauba waxes adhere to the paint surface in the way that candle wax, for example, might adhere to one's finger but that synthetic waxes actually effect a molecular bond with the paint itself. Is this accurate? (See, e.g., this explanation (http://www.detailingbliss.com/forum/f8/carnauba-brasil-wax-7886.html). I do not know if the author's analysis is sound.)

J. A. Michaels
Jul 25th, 2009, 03:05 AM
That, my friend is a excellent idea.

the_invisible
Jul 25th, 2009, 02:44 PM
In all seriousness, it is understandable as to why there's no Meguiar's chemists posting on MOL. I believe most chemists are contracted to spend most of their working hours researching, developing, and testing products from their own company, as well as products of the competitors. You can imagine how much work that involves.

If the chemists are asked by Meguiar's to post on MOL, they would have to be compensated for that. After all, contributing to the company's resources (in this case MOL) takes away their own personal time. To avoid paying extras to the chemists, Meguiar's is better off by asking their chemists to stay off MOL. I may be wrong, but contracted scientists in different fields are only responsible for the R&D aspect of products. They are never involved in the marketing aspect of a business unless they are getting paid for their contribution. In accounting, costs of running a community forum such as MOL always falls into marketing/advertising expenses on the financial statements. In substance, MOL is an advertising tool of Meguiar's. This analysis may be a little far fetched for a relatively small corporation like Meguiar's. But that is how the industry works.

The above is also the reason why we never saw Viagra chemists being spokespersons for the products. :D

Mike Pennington
Jul 25th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Just to clarify....We don't contract out our chemists....They are all employees within our own R & D Department :D

That said, maybe we can put together a "live chat" with our R & D Staff ??

That may be the best of both worlds, since they are very busy with R & D responsibilities.

Let me see what we can come up with, but don't don't hold us to it :xyxthumbs

Sandstone
Jul 25th, 2009, 07:51 PM
Yipee!

Would you mind elaborating on this please. I have read that carnauba waxes adhere to the paint surface in the way that candle wax, for example, might adhere to one's finger but that synthetic waxes actually effect a molecular bond with the paint itself. Is this accurate? (See, e.g., this explanation (http://www.detailingbliss.com/forum/f8/carnauba-brasil-wax-7886.html). I do not know if the author's analysis is sound.)

Al,

Note that this is just my professional opinion based on 21 yrs in the chemical/plastics/fibers industry. I would always defer to a Megs chemist for the final word but here's my 2 cents. togwt is pretty much on target but I'll attempt to provide a less verbose response...

100% Carnauba will bond like candle wax to paint but note that in order to get the carnauba to flow and haze you need to dissolve it in petroleum distillates (VOC's) or something else which will dilute the wax and hopefully add some chemical bonding ability. Consequently, something touted as a pure wax is a blend of wax and solvent. When the solvent evaporates, the wax hazes.

A synthetic could and hopefully should be formulated as a mixture that would have a greater propensity to chemically bond to paint (think hydrogen bonding, ionic bonding, etc) resulting in a longer lasting product. Hope this helps.

sleepy
Jul 26th, 2009, 02:46 AM
So the reason why we have different types of wax is from the balance between solvents and wax? :scratchhead1

Sandstone
Jul 26th, 2009, 04:02 AM
So the reason why we have different types of wax is from the balance between solvents and wax? :scratchhead1

In addition to the ratio of wax to solvent, there are different types of waxes and solvents. Plus, there are other ingredients such as silicone, other polymers and, in the case of cleaner waxes with mechanical abrasives, probably TiO2 and/or some form of clay.

Here's a random example: IIRC M16 is a heavy wax meaning high molecular weight and hard. It has a high concentration of strong organic solvents to dissolve the harder wax making it an issue here in the US as far as volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are concerned. Since it is a hard wax, it mechanically bonds well and lasts a long time which, in addition to its appearance (due to the type of wax used), is why people like it so much. Candle wax is very soft and would not last long.

sleepy
Jul 26th, 2009, 09:23 AM
Here's a random example: IIRC M16 is a heavy wax meaning high molecular weight and hard. It has a high concentration of strong organic solvents to dissolve the harder wax making it an issue here in the US as far as volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are concerned. Since it is a hard wax, it mechanically bonds well and lasts a long time which, in addition to its appearance (due to the type of wax used), is why people like it so much. Candle wax is very soft and would not last long.


I appriciate the response Sandstone. So, what kind of organic and VOC compounds would car wax have?

Sandstone
Jul 26th, 2009, 06:26 PM
If your curious, dig up an MSDS sheet which will show a chemical abstract # (CAS #) under something like "petroleum distillates" in the composition section. Then look up the CAS # to id the solvent. If you don't have a chemical background the info will be fairly meaningless. There are many compounds that fall under the proprietary umbrella and are thus not disclosed. Wax dissolves in petroleum distillates such a mineral spirits and paint thinner. There are a bazillion solvents and most are a blend and not a pure compound. None of this really matters...just use what you like and what works for you.

akimel
Jul 26th, 2009, 06:44 PM
Sandstone, my understanding is that pure synthetic sealants bond to the paint differently than do carnauba-style waxes. Can you confirm this, and if this is true, can you explain, in layman's terms, the difference. Thanks!

Al

the_invisible
Jul 26th, 2009, 11:44 PM
Hello, Al.

I am curious as to why you are particularly interested in knowing how waxes are bonded to paint surfaces. Would obtaining such knowledge enhance our polishing/waxing techniques? Keep me in the loop; I am very interested to know what you have up your sleeves that may enhance our performance in detailing.

akimel
Jul 27th, 2009, 01:41 AM
Hello, Al.

I am curious as to why you are particularly interested in knowing how waxes are bonded to paint surfaces. Would obtaining such knowledge enhance our polishing/waxing techniques? Keep me in the loop; I am very interested to know what you have up your sleeves that may enhance our performance in detailing.

Actually, I don't think knowing how different waxes bond will affect my detailing performance at all. I'm just curious. :)

Markus Kleis
Jul 27th, 2009, 02:10 AM
Actually, I don't think knowing how different waxes bond will affect my detailing performance at all. I'm just curious. :)

Haha, I love you Al :chuckle1

Ok, well, you know what I mean... :nervous1

Erik Mejia
Jul 27th, 2009, 02:40 AM
This is definitely a great idea, it would be cool to hear from the men, and women that come up with all these great product ideas, as well as their insight on how they approach creating formulations to address specific problems.

akimel
Jul 27th, 2009, 02:48 AM
Haha, I love you Al :chuckle1

You're not getting my Bud Light, Mark! :D

Markus Kleis
Jul 27th, 2009, 02:52 AM
You're not getting my Bud Light, Mark! :D

Haha, Al, once a tease, always a tease :rofl:

Sandstone
Jul 27th, 2009, 02:55 AM
Let's see...

A wax sticking to paint is like a beautiful woman who likes you, is holding your hand and won't let go of it. She's attached but is just holding on.

A synthetic is you liking that woman, your heart is beating fast, etc since there is this unknown force, chemisty or magnetism that connects you to her.

M21/NXT are the best of both...physical and chemical attraction. Or you could say they look good and smell good. :D

PS Rep points please

akimel
Jul 27th, 2009, 03:13 AM
PS Rep points please

There's something sad and pathetic about a man begging for rep points. :poke :D

Sandstone
Jul 27th, 2009, 04:00 AM
Thankie Sai. Hey, I figured asking for help with getting email notifications was pointless. I don't know why they never work for me. I do get a stray one every once in a while but they are usually weeks old.

Zuke
Jul 27th, 2009, 08:14 AM
There's something sad and pathetic about a man begging for rep points. :poke :D


Id give you more Rep points Al, but I don't think they can fit anymore little green boxes next to your name.:woot2

Interesting topic though, cool to know the science behind the art.:hotrod2

akimel
Jul 27th, 2009, 08:22 AM
Id give you more Rep points Al, but I don't think they can fit anymore little green boxes next to your name.:woot2

Touche! :yelrotflmao

I have perhaps received more undeserved rep points than anyone on this forum. I certainly have enough to last me a couple of life times!

But I do gleefully enjoy giving rep points to those who contribute helplful articles and comments. :heelclick1.gif

Eddie6th
Jul 29th, 2009, 03:53 AM
Online chemist.......Good idea.

I find products and their properties interesting.:wavey

HealthyCivic
Oct 17th, 2009, 07:46 PM
Someone needs to get with HowStuffWorks.com and make a dedicated article on "How Car Wax Works" and have sections for both synthetic and organic. They have a billion other articles; some which are less practical and interesting than How Car Wax Works. I might try and contact them about this.

akimel
Oct 17th, 2009, 08:43 PM
I still wish Megs would invite one of the chemists to respond to our most common questions. Mother's has a "Dr Chemist." Why not Meguiar's? It would strengthen the forum and all of our IQs would improve. :)

roushstage2
Oct 17th, 2009, 09:36 PM
I'll toss my vote in there. I'm all for more knowledge!

Bunky
Oct 18th, 2009, 04:59 AM
If some did post, I doubt they would discuss chemistry questions. People spend a lot of time dissecting chemistry and make conclusions. I am sure some competitors are just looking for the extra angle to use against Meg's like the petroleum distillates and silicone topics. It is more often prudent just to not get into the discussions.

The only chemist I know that has openly discussed chemistry is Optimum's chemist.

HealthyCivic
Oct 18th, 2009, 05:31 AM
I think the best that Meguiar's could do would be to have a chemist help author (or author) a "How things work" section explaining in general how the different products work. They could listen for feedback, comments, and suggestions for new articles. Putting a chemist on the forum would likely lead to people asking questions that they wouldn't want to answer 70% of the time. You guys all know how the forums go. It starts with a simple question and 2 pages later, it gets into the gory details. Having this happen in as many threads as it would, it would start to degrade the quality of the forum. This is probably why Meguiar's hasn't already done it.

roushstage2
Oct 18th, 2009, 11:00 AM
If some did post, I doubt they would discuss chemistry questions. People spend a lot of time dissecting chemistry and make conclusions. I am sure some competitors are just looking for the extra angle to use against Meg's like the petroleum distillates and silicone topics. It is more often prudent just to not get into the discussions.

The only chemist I know that has openly discussed chemistry is Optimum's chemist.
I don't think they are looking for specific's on how Meguiar's products work, but just general "How things work" about waxes and such. Anyone making wax, I'd have to assume, would know these basics already.

yalerd
Oct 18th, 2009, 02:47 PM
I don't think they are looking for specific's on how Meguiar's products work, but just general "How things work" about waxes and such. Anyone making wax, I'd have to assume, would know these basics already.

I agree. Just general information like any other topic.

Live chat, making an article or something like it would be awesome :D

akimel
Oct 18th, 2009, 02:53 PM
For example: I would like a chemist to explain to me how a carnauba wax bonds to the paint surface and how this is different from the way a synthetic sealant bonds to the paint surface. I know that I don't NEED to know this in order to do a good detailing job ... but I'd still like to know.

I'd also like our chemist to explain to me whether it is possible to "layer" a wax or sealant and whether it is beneficial to try to do so.

In other words, I'm curious in the science behind all of this. Please don't tell me that I should simply "trust" the manufacturer. I don't trust any manufacturers. My default assumption is that they are simply out to make money and will say whatever they need to say to make money. However, I'm happy to have my assumption disproven. :)

the_invisible
Oct 18th, 2009, 04:25 PM
In other words, I'm curious in the science behind all of this. Please don't tell me that I should simply "trust" the manufacturer. I don't trust any manufacturers. My default assumption is that they are simply out to make money and will say whatever they need to say to make money. However, I'm happy to have my assumption disproven. :)

That's a bold statement to make on a manufacturer sponsored forum. Although I am not paranoid, I agree with this assumption.

I would imagine that the bonding properties of Carnauba or any sealant or glaze would be a proprietary secret.

jmakado
Jun 5th, 2010, 07:56 AM
For example:
In other words, I'm curious in the science behind all of this. Please don't tell me that I should simply "trust" the manufacturer. I don't trust any manufacturers. My default assumption is that they are simply out to make money and will say whatever they need to say to make money. However, I'm happy to have my assumption disproven. :)

You think a Meguiar's chemist is going to say anything that doesn't 100% fall in line with what a Meguiar's rep. would say? Trusting a Meguiar's chemist is exactly the same as "trusting the manufacturer".

It's not really a "trust" issue. If you buy it and it doesn't work you send it back. See, no trust needed!

Poki
Jun 5th, 2010, 08:29 AM
Sunscreen products? Many of today's products claim to have sunscreen ability. Can you expand on that a bit? What's the difference between a wax/polish with sunscreen and one without? (besides the obvious silly one). :dunno

HTH
Dec 22nd, 2010, 08:48 PM
I experimented and made my own car wax once, that count?

Still remember the recipie if anyone wants it :p

Not that It compared to meguiars or anything, but it worked pretty good and I had a bit of fun with it :)

Larry A
Dec 23rd, 2010, 07:05 AM
A chemist should reply to some posts if for no other reason then to explane the whys and werefors of waxes, sealants and other chemicals. A lot of people on detailing forums have no idea on what there doing. They work harder then they have too. Nobody needs 6 steps to get the paint right.

greg0303
Dec 23rd, 2010, 07:52 AM
I think Mike Stoops is our "bridge" to get some tough questions answered by one of the chemists.

I remember in past Mike sat down with Jason Rose and gave us full report back on the subject. :xyxthumbs

TOGWT
Dec 24th, 2010, 07:07 AM
Sunscreen products? Many of today's products claim to have sunscreen ability. Can you expand on that a bit? What's the difference between a wax/polish with sunscreen and one without? (besides the obvious silly one). :dunno

To determine a sunscreen's sun protection factor (SPF) testers chose 20 sun-sensitive people and measure the amount of UV rays it takes them to burn without sunscreen. Then they redo the test with sunscreen. The "with sunscreen" number is divided by the "without sunscreen" number, and the result is rounded down to the nearest five. This is the sun protection factor (SPF)

Some car care manufacturers are using an SPF number to rate the ultra violet (UV) protection of their paint protection products, I would be interested as to how these numbers were arrived at.

Be cognizant that an applied paint protection is less than 0.1 µ; so the suggestion that a clear coating this thin could provide protection from ultra violet protection is based more on marketing hype than scientific fact.

The clear coat 48 µ (1.9 mil) provides gloss plus physical protection from the elements, including ultraviolet (UV) radiation