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Mike Phillips
Feb 22nd, 2010, 02:22 PM
The Aggressiveness Order of SMAT Products - This might surprise you!



Super Micro Abrasive Technology = SMAT
From left to right, the most aggressive to the least aggressive SMAT products
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/828/SMATaggressivenessOrder.jpg

From the most to the least aggressive...


M105 Ultra-Cut Compound/M95 Speed Cut Compound = The same in abrading power
Ultimate Compound
ScratchX 2.0
M86 Solo Cut & Polish Cream
D151 Paint Reconditioning Cream
SwirlX
M205 Ultra Finishing Polish



Now instead of SCANNING... (like we're all prone to do on discussion forums), read the below very carefully.

The order shown here is relative, to the idea that if all things were equal, if all influencing factors could be controlled and be identical when using these products.

That of course is impossible because some of these products are only recommended for use with a rotary buffer while some of these products are only recommended for use by hand or with a dual action polisher. So if we were to follow the manufactures recommendations then we wouldn't be able to compare all of these products side-by-side because in some examples they cannot be used in an equal manner.

Does that make sense?

This article is just to give you a GENERAL idea for the aggressiveness of these products when relatively compared to one another. The way a product is applied, (by hand or machine and if by machine the type of machine), and the application material used to apply the products, (foam, wool, wool/acrylic blend, cotton, microfiber), are both HUGE factors that will and do affect how aggressive a product is or isn't.

So keep this in mind when considering which product to choose and use for your detailing project.

Also keep in mind this is a very diverse group of products, all of these products except the D151 PRC are products with the dedicated purpose of removing below surface defects like swirls, scratches and other etchings and blemishes.

The D151 is a one-step cleaner/wax that has the ability to remove below surface defects, polish the paint to a high gloss and then leave behind a coating of protection.

Any questions?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Markus Kleis
Feb 22nd, 2010, 03:13 PM
I have one - how have you been Mike? :) We miss you!

Thanks for the post - this should be a great tool for future use. Michael Stoops also posted THIS THREAD (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38239&highlight=total+cut) which covered the concept of total cut as you alluded to in your post.

The product that really comes to mind for that is SOLO Cut and Polish Cream - I find this product to be incredibly versatile and offer an extremely wide range of cutting and finishing potential based on the means of application.

Michael Stoops
Feb 22nd, 2010, 05:02 PM
The order shown here is relative, to the idea that if all things were equal, if all influencing factors could be controlled and be identical when using these products.

That of course is impossible because some of these products are only recommended for use with a rotary buffer while some of these products are only recommended for use by hand or with a dual action polisher. So if we were to follow the manufactures recommendations then we wouldn't be able to compare all of these products side-by-side because in some examples they cannot be used in an equal manner.

Does that make sense?

This article is just to give you a GENERAL idea for the aggressiveness of these products when relatively compared to one another. The way a product is applied, (by hand or machine and if by machine the type of machine), and the application material used to apply the products, (foam, wool, wool/acrylic blend, cotton, microfiber), are both HUGE factors that will and do affect how aggressive a product is or isn't.

So keep this in mind when considering which product to choose and use for your detailing project.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

It is critically important to keep the above in mind, and it bears repeating: in many cases, you can not simply and directly compare the aggressiveness of two different products because they are intended to be used in different ways.

A perfect example of this is shown in one isolated product: M86 So1o Cut & Polish Cream. Is it a heavy cutting compound? Well, when used with the WWHC7 burgundy wool cutting pad on a rotary buffer at 1800 rpm it can pull out 1200 grit sanding marks. Or is it a finishing polish? Well, when used with a WDFF7 diamond cut foam finishing pad on a rotary at 1000 rpm it can beautifully refine a finish to a hologram free, deep, wet shine. How M86 is used makes all the difference in the world.

Taking this example one step further, Mike lists ScratchX 2.0 as being more aggressive than M86, but you would never select ScratchX 2.0 to use on a wool pad at 1800 rpm on a rotary to pull out sanding marks. It is simply not designed for that purpose.

The nature of the abrasives used in a given product (and not all SMAT abrasives are 100% identical, by the way) and the other ingredients used in the "carrier liquid" determine whether a product can even survive being used with an aggressive rotary application, or if they'll be effective at all when used by hand.

Just as so often people tend to over think certain things, we don't want you to over simplify either. Mike Phillips has long referred to the "Art of Paint Polishing" and he's absolutely right; there are an awful lot of variables to consider. Chief among those is the paint itself. But that's a whole 'nother discussion!!

Akustic
Feb 23rd, 2010, 07:08 AM
M95 can use with G110 DA soft Buff 2.0 W8207?

about UC and M95, M95 is 12 on scale and UC is arround 6 ?

Thanks!

Michael Stoops
Feb 23rd, 2010, 09:32 AM
M95 can use with G110 DA soft Buff 2.0 W8207?

about UC and M95, M95 is 12 on scale and UC is arround 6 ?

Thanks!

M95 is a rotary only product, do not use it with a D/A. If you really need that level of cut and you're using a D/A, stay with M105. As for Ultimate Compound, it would fall higher than 6 on our pro cut scale as it is more aggressive than M83, which is a 6. In fact, it's quite a bit higher as it is derived from M105.

Andrew Wilson
Feb 23rd, 2010, 01:10 PM
This is such a great post. Thanks for taking the time to make it.

Sudz On The Run
Feb 23rd, 2010, 01:15 PM
Thanks for sharing

Mike Phillips
Feb 23rd, 2010, 02:23 PM
It is critically important to keep the above in mind, and it bears repeating: in many cases, you can not simply and directly compare the aggressiveness of two different products because they are intended to be used in different ways.




Mike Stoops point is dead on that it's difficult at best to try to compare all of these product with one another directly as they are formulated for very diverse procedures and diverse markets with a very wide spectrum of user skill levels taken into consideration.

That said, as long as I've been posting to forums, it seems like serious online enthusiasts always want a a list of least to most aggressive products, so this is just general indicator, not a hard and fast last word on the topic set in concrete.

I'm working on a couple other articles and in the process of writing them I found I needed to somehow reference the new SMAT collection and try to gingerly give the reader some idea of where they would fall into line assuming all other factors could be kept close to the same. But as I wrote in the original article,



The order shown here is relative, to the idea that if all things were equal, if all influencing factors could be controlled and be identical when using these products.

That of course is impossible because some of these products are only recommended for use with a rotary buffer while some of these products are only recommended for use by hand or with a dual action polisher. So if we were to follow the manufactures recommendations then we wouldn't be able to compare all of these products side-by-side because in some examples they cannot be used in an equal manner.

Does that make sense?

This article is just to give you a GENERAL idea for the aggressiveness of these products when relatively compared to one another. The way a product is applied, (by hand or machine and if by machine the type of machine), and the application material used to apply the products, (foam, wool, wool/acrylic blend, cotton, microfiber), are both HUGE factors that will and do affect how aggressive a product is or isn't.

So keep this in mind when considering which product to choose and use for your detailing project.



:xyxthumbs

searle
Feb 23rd, 2010, 04:26 PM
Absolutely continue to remind folks that the actual cutting effect much more than just the product but is also dependent on hand vs machine (and DA vs rotary), speed, pressure, time, pad material, SMAT vs DAT, etc.

But when all is said-and-done, is it is still extremely useful to know the relative aggressiveness of individual products when other factors are the same. Similarly it is great to know what elements are present (cleaner? glaze? wax? polymers?) since the marketing descriptions often leave you guessing.

I understand the concern that Meguiars has that the other factors will be forgotten by many, but I appreciate the willingness of Meguiars to go out on a limb and provide this relative information (along with ongoing reminders to also factor in the other variables)- especially to the folks studying these forums

THANKS!

Murr1525
Feb 23rd, 2010, 04:31 PM
Still need a bit of a baseline to start comparing things, nice to see Solo and PRC added in.

Detale
Feb 24th, 2010, 06:05 PM
I guess it's all relative. Another well known detailer made a "chart" of his opinions of Meguiars products after a lot of testing. He has M205 listed as more aggressive than D151 and Swirl X which he considers equal in terms of aggressiveness. This "chart" states D151 and Swirl X as more agressive than M205.

cleanCXS
Feb 24th, 2010, 07:33 PM
this illustration says swirl x is more agressive than m205. Just wondering how this is possible since it says on the bottle that swirl x contains no abrasives?

Michael Stoops
Feb 25th, 2010, 09:25 AM
I guess it's all relative. Another well known detailer made a "chart" of his opinions of Meguiars products after a lot of testing. He has M205 listed as more aggressive than D151 and Swirl X which he considers equal in terms of aggressiveness. This "chart" states D151 and Swirl X as more aggressive than M205.

This is where you start to see the downside to attempting a comparison of products designed to be used in different ways. D151, SwirlX and M205 are all very close in inherent cut but they're used in quite different ways.



SwirlX is a consumer product designed to be used by hand or with a D/A polisher to remove light swirls.
D151 is an all-in-one product designed for high volume reconditioning shops that are more interested in production than perfection. It can be used via rotary with a wool pad (a combination that would give much, much more total cut than SwirlX will when used as directed ) or with a D/A and a polishing pad. Either way, it leaves wax protection that the other two do not.
M205 was designed as a finishing polish to be applied via rotary buffer to remove any light hologramming that might be caused by using M105 with a wool pad.

So while the inherent cut of these products is extremely close they each possess different properties, unique unto themselves, that cause them to be very different products. And since are used differently you can alter the total cut pretty significantly, as mentioned above with regard to D151. Because of this, how you use them can influence how you might rank them in a chart like this.

What all this means is that, although these charts can be interesting from a general reference point of view, they don't come close to telling the whole story.


this illustration says swirl x is more agressive than m205. Just wondering how this is possible since it says on the bottle that swirl x contains no abrasives?This is sort of a consumer vs pro semantics thing. In the consumer mind, "abrasive" means it scratches, and nothing in SwirlX can scratch your paint. Yes, technically there are abrasive particles in it that help to level the paint and remove defects, but even that simply reality can scare the daylights out of the average consumer. Their typical reaction is "so this will remove my clear coat?? No, no .... I want something that will remove my swirls without touching my clear coat". We actually hear that, and fairly regularly. MOL members understand that in order to truly remove swirls you have to remove a tiny bit of clear coat, there is simply no way around it. That's why we educate people in our classes, product demos at shows, over the phone through our call center, and here on MOL. But it's difficult to fully educate someone in the space of a bottle label, so wording is chosen carefully so as to communicate the message to those who have yet to learn all this stuff!

Mikejl
Feb 25th, 2010, 04:26 PM
this illustration says swirl x is more agressive than m205. Just wondering how this is possible since it says on the bottle that swirl x contains no abrasives?

I don't have the bottle with me right now, but I'm pretty sure it says it that it is "non-abrasive."

:)

Mike

Michael Stoops
Feb 25th, 2010, 04:30 PM
I don't have the bottle with me right now, but I'm pretty sure it says it that it is "non-abrasive."

:)

Mike

Good catch of a fine distinction there, Mike.

The bottle does indeed read "... this non-abrasive formula..." rather than stating it contains no abrasives. And that terminology is what was referenced in our previous post. Should have been a bit more clear on that, but leave it Mike to keep us on our toes! Well done, friend!

cleanCXS
Feb 28th, 2010, 10:51 PM
hmm...what's the difference?

Michael Stoops
Mar 1st, 2010, 08:24 AM
hmm...what's the difference?
What's the difference between.....???

If you're referring to "non-abrasive" and "contains no abrasives" we've already talked about that, but maybe this will clear it up:

"Contains no abrasives" would indicate that the product literally contains no abrasive particles and therefore either cleans the paint chemically (Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner functioned this way, primarily) or does not clean the paint at all (Deep Crystal Polish, for example).

"Non-abrasive", specifically in the case of SwirlX, refers to the fact the abrasives in the product are very specialized and will not scratch, mar, haze or otherwise have a negative impact on the appearance of the finish. To the general consumer (ie, folks who aren't as Car Crazy as MOL members) the word "abrasive" carries a negative connotation - they see that word and immediately think it's going to hurt the paint.

Desmo888
Mar 30th, 2010, 07:29 AM
This is excellent!

It would be nice to get more information like this.

Hemin8r
Mar 30th, 2010, 09:18 AM
This is all great information. Thanks for sharing!

FRS
Jul 1st, 2010, 04:12 PM
This is one of the most informative treads I've read on this forum.

A lot of essential info .. :wavey

EPHIOS
Sep 23rd, 2010, 05:58 AM
So, SwirlX will be considered as a cut of "4"? Or will it be pretty close to M205?

Shawn T.
Sep 23rd, 2010, 07:41 AM
So, SwirlX will be considered as a cut of "4"? Or will it be pretty close to M205?

It's close to 205 but a little stronger.

rraelyn07
Nov 4th, 2010, 09:29 AM
Thanks for sharing Mike:goodjob2

Shootist
Nov 29th, 2010, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the picture, Mike! I keep it on my iPhone for reference as I have a variety of pro and consumer products.

Alfisti
Jul 21st, 2013, 08:53 AM
My bad. Wrong thread. :bawling1

harly100
Aug 12th, 2013, 02:02 AM
love this thread and forum,what more can a noob ask for. thanks mike

Amvalai
Feb 1st, 2014, 10:33 AM
About the Swirl X, just wanna ask which pad is the best to use to remove swirls? Is it the red or yellow pad? Im currently using the DAPS. :)

Murr1525
Feb 3rd, 2014, 08:38 AM
With the Power System, red would be fine. Although Ult Compound and the red pad may make the job easier, esp if your paint isnt soft.

Usually would want yellow with a full sized DA.

davey g-force
Feb 3rd, 2014, 06:14 PM
About the Swirl X, just wanna ask which pad is the best to use to remove swirls? Is it the red or yellow pad? Im currently using the DAPS. :)

If you have both, try the least agressive method first (i.e. the yellow pad) on a test spot and see if that does the job.

If not, step up to the red.

jdavis92
Feb 10th, 2014, 01:26 PM
All things being equal...where would White Wax slot in?

Murr1525
Feb 10th, 2014, 01:48 PM
I would guess SwirlX-ish...

Michael Stoops
Feb 11th, 2014, 08:28 AM
All things being equal...where would White Wax slot in?


I would guess SwirlX-ish...
That's a pretty good guess, but it's actually more on par with D151 PRC, all things being equal (pad, tool, speed, pressure, etc).

davey g-force
Feb 11th, 2014, 05:40 PM
That's a pretty good guess, but it's actually more on par with D151 PRC, all things being equal (pad, tool, speed, pressure, etc).

Wow, really?

So Mike are you saying that WW has about the same cutting ability as D151?

Michael Stoops
Feb 12th, 2014, 08:21 AM
Wow, really?

So Mike are you saying that WW has about the same cutting ability as D151?
Yes. White Wax uses SMAT abrasives and is surprisingly effective at removing light to moderate swirls when applied with a DA and a foam polishing pad. Below are a couple examples of the power of White Wax taken from a couple of TNOG sessions early last year. This first one is a great example of swirl removal using WW as a one step product.


People have asked if they could use the cleaning ability of White Wax on a darker colored car. Well sure you can! Remember, this new White Wax is essentially a cleaner wax that uses SMAT abrasives, so it's got a lot of cleaning power. Here's a before shot of some swirled blue paint.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/2067/2012_11_01_TNOG_302.jpg

One application of White Wax and the swirls are almost completely gone. No, it's not a substitute for a full, dedicated paint cleaner like Ultimate Compound, but for a one step this is a huge result!
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/2067/2012_11_01_TNOG_301.jpg


This is more of what WW was designed for: bringing back the true brightness of color on lighter colored vehicles that have been exposed to the elements for some time. You'll notice in the 50/50 shot below that the "before" section actually looked pretty glossy, but it just wasn't "white" any more. With a somewhat aggressive application of WW the brilliance of the white paint is restored - in a single step.

We're using the yellow foam pad to get a bit more cut, and we're running at speed 5. Normally you'd apply wax with a finishing pad at speed 3, but this is a fairly potent cleaner wax so we wanted to see if we could maximize the cleaning ability of it.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/2108/2013_03_25_TNOG_0014.JPG


The brighter areas toward the nose of the car are after using White Wax, while the darker, duller areas are untouched.
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/2108/2013_03_25_TNOG_0031.JPG

overseer1234
Feb 12th, 2014, 10:48 AM
While we're talking about White Wax, where does Black wax fit? I suppose about in between swirlX and M205 (I suppose ultimate pollish comes after M205 but only marginally)

Or is it more aggressive than that?

Murr1525
Feb 12th, 2014, 11:00 AM
Ult. Polish is milder than #205, and Black Wax should be milder than Ult. Polish.

BillyJack
Feb 12th, 2014, 04:49 PM
Wow, that's a dramatic difference!
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/2108/2013_03_25_TNOG_0031.JPG

Looks like White Wax is going on the shopping list! Thanks for the info, Michael.

Bill

davey g-force
Feb 12th, 2014, 05:14 PM
Thanks Michael. :xyxthumbs

Michael Stoops
Feb 13th, 2014, 01:58 PM
Black Wax is quite a bit less aggressive than White Wax but it contains a lot more polishing oils, which darker colors really love. This graphic spells it out pretty well, comparing both Black and White Waxes to our original Cleaner Wax.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/2060/medium/waxcomparison.png

overseer1234
Feb 14th, 2014, 08:57 AM
Yeah, i already found that comparison chart on the website, but hoe does it scale to the other SMAT products?

Maybe update the chart in the opening post by adding Light/Dark wax, and Ultimate pollish

I know Dark wax is milder then Light wax, but now by what margin (compared to the other SMAT products)

I mean, seeing that Light wax is appearantly more agressive than SwirlX, make's me wonder what Dark wax compare's to.

Like if it could remove haze left behind by ultimate compound/M105

Murr1525
Feb 14th, 2014, 11:27 AM
The Black Wax isnt SMAT.

It is just a very mild cleaner/wax like the A12 (red bottle), but with extra polishing oils.

billddrummer
Apr 30th, 2014, 06:08 PM
Great thread, fabulous information!

A question which may have been answered earlier, but wondering something:

With my new DA Orbiter (HF edition), if I am using Swirlx with the orbiter for moderate correction, what color pad should I use, and what backing plate do you recommend?

Christopher.Brown
May 1st, 2014, 04:43 AM
Hard to say what your definition of Moderate is exactly......

However, in the DAMF (Dual Action Microfiber System) system D300 paired up with 5" Microfiber cutting Disc and the 5" backing plate - W67DA, would be a simple no frills solution for you when tackling moderate defects.

Staying within the system that could be followed up with D301 on a 5" MF finishing disc.......

This would produce phemoninal correction, gloss, clarity, and definition of image of things being reflected by the newly buffed paint!


:doublethumbsup2

Christopher.Brown
May 1st, 2014, 04:55 AM
**phenomenal correction may also be achieved in addition to phemoninal..

ahahaha oh the joys of bad typing coupled with poor spelling


:chuckle1

billddrummer
May 1st, 2014, 06:25 PM
Hard to say what your definition of Moderate is exactly......

However, in the DAMF (Dual Action Microfiber System) system D300 paired up with 5" Microfiber cutting Disc and the 5" backing plate - W67DA, would be a simple no frills solution for you when tackling moderate defects.

Staying within the system that could be followed up with D301 on a 5" MF finishing disc.......

This would produce phemoninal correction, gloss, clarity, and definition of image of things being reflected by the newly buffed paint!


:doublethumbsup2
Well, that's a really good question, and I'll attempt to answer here:

'Moderate' means even though I've switched to touchless car washes, I've driven approximately 5,000 miles since last using SwirlX.

I bought the real cheap polisher from Auto Zone (net cost $10) and it seemed to do an OK job. It didn't cut down on the time at all though.

If some of you follow my threads, you'll know that I ran over a rock which skipped along the driver's side, scuffing (but not scratching) the paint.

Since I drive 600+ miles a week, I consider the environmental damage to date 'moderate.'

And the reason I asked about SwirlX is because I have a bottle which is over 90% full.

Was hoping I could use it rather than spring for another compound.

I trust that helps with your diagnosis.

Alfisti
May 3rd, 2014, 06:38 AM
The Black Wax isnt SMAT.

It is just a very mild cleaner/wax like the A12 (red bottle), but with extra polishing oils.
I was under the impression that it WAS SMAT.

Michael Stoops
May 5th, 2014, 09:06 AM
Black Wax and White Wax are indeed both SMAT abrasive cleaner waxes. But Black Wax contains very little of these abrasives while White Wax has a much higher abrasive load to it, making it a surprisingly potent cleaner wax.

As for defining "moderate", that's always a bit tricky because of how a large a variable the paint is. You can have similar defects that you might consider to be moderate on two different paint systems and you may very well need two different processes to correct them.

Bill, SwirlX is very mild, non aggressive stuff. The buffer you have is very non aggressive, too. Put those two together and you may well struggle to remove even moderate defects if your paint is on the hard side. Basically, you don't really know exactly how things are going to work until you start working on the paint. The paint will basically tell you what it needs as it will either respond very well to such a mild input, or it will just sort of sit there and do nothing (or maybe laugh in your face - and I hate when that happens!). In that case, you do need to step up to something with a bit more punch to it.

billddrummer
May 5th, 2014, 07:24 PM
Black Wax and White Wax are indeed both SMAT abrasive cleaner waxes. But Black Wax contains very little of these abrasives while White Wax has a much higher abrasive load to it, making it a surprisingly potent cleaner wax.

As for defining "moderate", that's always a bit tricky because of how a large a variable the paint is. You can have similar defects that you might consider to be moderate on two different paint systems and you may very well need two different processes to correct them.

Bill, SwirlX is very mild, non aggressive stuff. The buffer you have is very non aggressive, too. Put those two together and you may well struggle to remove even moderate defects if your paint is on the hard side. Basically, you don't really know exactly how things are going to work until you start working on the paint. The paint will basically tell you what it needs as it will either respond very well to such a mild input, or it will just sort of sit there and do nothing (or maybe laugh in your face - and I hate when that happens!). In that case, you do need to step up to something with a bit more punch to it.

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate all the commentary, and especially yours considering your vast experience with all types of correction challenges.

And, based on Top Gear's comments, it sounds like Hyundai uses relatively hard paint.

From what I hear, it sounds like I should move up to UC with a yellow MF cutting disc, followed by UP and my standby GC paste wax.

If I had purchased UC to begin with I wouldn't be dithering over the chemicals, but that's the way it is.

As I've posted before, I have to rely on touchless car washes for the wash step of the paint care cycle.

But it sounds like consumers like me have had success with claying, UC, UP and wax.

Appreciate all the info!

davey g-force
May 5th, 2014, 08:57 PM
From what I hear, it sounds like I should move up to UC with a yellow MF cutting disc,

Bill,

Do you mean UC with a yellow foam pad, or a MF cutting disc? Be aware that the latter combo is quite aggressive.

If you have both types of pads, try a test spot with a yellow foam pad first. If that doesn't work, then step up to a MF cutting pad..

billddrummer
May 6th, 2014, 03:38 PM
Bill,

Do you mean UC with a yellow foam pad, or a MF cutting disc? Be aware that the latter combo is quite aggressive.

If you have both types of pads, try a test spot with a yellow foam pad first. If that doesn't work, then step up to a MF cutting pad..

Good catch! I meant foam, not cutting pad. Thanks.

billddrummer
Jun 7th, 2014, 12:32 PM
Oh, as I mentioned on another thread, I used ScratchX (recommended by the gentleman who is a professional detailer), blue cotton pads from AutoZone, and the cheap orbiter on that scuff mark. Did three slow passes and removed the flaws :dancing3.

Finished up with UP and wax.

Looks real good now, but again, challenged with uploading pics.

My buddy said don't be surprised if I am able to see the scuff mark after a few weeks, but I will wait and see.

KidDetailer
Oct 8th, 2014, 05:41 AM
I was wondering if Scratch x 2.0 makes sense anymore?

The reason I ask is because for 7 oz of Scratch X 2.0 ; it costs $8
while for 15 oz of Ultimate Compound; it costs $10

I kind of would like to purchase more Scratch X, but pricing doesn't make sense for me. Perhaps D151 might fill in the gap of aggressiveness for me. Something between Ultimate Polish and Ultimate Compound

BillyJack
Oct 8th, 2014, 07:28 AM
I can't reply from experience, since I've never used Scratch-X, but working by machine, I don't see a need for anything in between UC and D151. I could be wrong, but I believe Scratch-X was intended as a inexpensive consumer product for the average consumer working by hand.
I continue to be impressed with the versatility of UC. Using a coarse pad, it cuts well and is less dependent on proper technique than M105, but with a medium pad such as an LC white or Meguiar's yellow, it finishes well enough that subsequent polishing becomes an option rather than a necessity.

Bill

The Guz
Oct 8th, 2014, 08:38 AM
If you already have UC, I would not bother picking up scratch x. If you want something that is versatile and fits in between UP and UC, then pick up some M205. Offers more correction than UP. If you are looking for a one step then look into D151, white wax or some of the other cleaner waxes.

Michael Stoops
Oct 9th, 2014, 07:29 AM
Bill really nailed it with regard to the reason ScratchX 2.0 exists in the first place. From a marketing standpoint, a product has to be able to sell itself to the consumer while sitting on a shelf filled with automotive finish care products. The average guy on the street doesn't know a fraction of what you guys know, so when he gets a little isolated scratch on his paint he goes to the store looking for something that will fix that scratch. His car is likely loaded with swirls but he doesn't recognize that as being a problem - it's just the way paint is. But that one scratch is driving him nuts and he wants it gone. A product like Ultimate Compound probably scares him because of that word - COMPOUND!!!!! He doesn't understand that all below surface defects get treated and fixed the same way. If you tell him "this product will fix scratches, swirls, etchings, oxidation, stains, etc etc" he thinks it's hype. Come on, one product can't fix everything! So he searches for a product that says it will do what he's looking for a product to do.

You guys, being detailing enthusiasts and members of a detailing forum (and maybe 2 or 3 such forums) understand that all below surface defects are indeed addressed in basically the same manner. And that you can alter the cutting ability of any product by how you use it - pad selection, tool speed, pressure, etc. If you're looking for something "between Ultimate Polish and Ultimate Compound", you could most likely fill that void with simply a less aggressive use of UC. D151 is extremely versatile but we wouldn't really put it between UP and UC. It can be used with a rotary buffer and a wool pad, and in that configuration it will out cut UC on a foam polishing pad via DA. But you can also use it as a light duty cleaner wax, in which case it's probably less potent than even UP.

If you have some M205 on hand, you might want to give that a try. If you don't have M205 you really need to get some - it's very versatile but as a finishing polish it's downright amazing.

KidDetailer
Oct 10th, 2014, 02:26 AM
In what way is M205 different from Ultimate Polish. I understand there is a difference that's been pointed out already in that it has a bit more correction ability.

So far, Ultimate Compound in combination with 3 inch Red/Yellow pad at speed setting 4/5 has taken cared of most defects I have come across. However, I have mostly been working with German cars with hard paint. With softer paints, I start with the Ultimate polish with a 3 inch yellow pad. I adjust aggressiveness with speed settings, even starting at speed 3 and work my way up to 5. If that doesn't work I would do Ultimate compound on the 3 inch yellow and start at 3 again and work my way up. If that doesn't work, I would then go with red pad and work my way up again as previously stated.

Michael Stoops
Oct 10th, 2014, 07:21 AM
In what way is M205 different from Ultimate Polish. I understand there is a difference that's been pointed out already in that it has a bit more correction ability. M205 has more abrasive load to it than Ultimate Polish, but UP has more polishing oils than M205. The difference is enough that M205 can actually provide a fairly high level of cut, depending on how it's used. With a microfiber pad it can actually accomplish quite a bit of defect removal, and on very haze prone paint it can be a life saver on a foam cutting pad and liberal use of water as a wetting agent to remove the haze and leave a beautiful finish.


So far, Ultimate Compound in combination with 3 inch Red/Yellow pad at speed setting 4/5 has taken cared of most defects I have come across. However, I have mostly been working with German cars with hard paint. With softer paints, I start with the Ultimate polish with a 3 inch yellow pad. I adjust aggressiveness with speed settings, even starting at speed 3 and work my way up to 5. If that doesn't work I would do Ultimate compound on the 3 inch yellow and start at 3 again and work my way up. If that doesn't work, I would then go with red pad and work my way up again as previously stated.
This sounds like a great way to approach any vehicle when you don't know how the paint will respond. An easy approach at first with a variety of more aggressive options when the need arises.

roger3380
Dec 12th, 2014, 11:06 AM
Oh, as I mentioned on another thread, I used ScratchX (recommended by the gentleman who is a professional detailer), blue cotton pads from AutoZone, and the cheap orbiter on that scuff mark. Did three slow passes and removed the flaws :dancing3.

Finished up with UP and wax.

Looks real good now, but again, challenged with uploading pics.

My buddy said don't be surprised if I am able to see the scuff mark after a few weeks, but I will wait and see.

Your buddy probably means that the oils from the polish with some time fill in the scratches tricking your eyes to think you have them all gone . So you can do a IPA wipe down lightly to remove any oils left behind. But be careful not rub to hard you dont want to add any more scratches to your paint.

sunvalleylaw
Feb 22nd, 2015, 09:23 PM
In what way is M205 different from Ultimate Polish. I understand there is a difference that's been pointed out already in that it has a bit more correction ability.

So far, Ultimate Compound in combination with 3 inch Red/Yellow pad at speed setting 4/5 has taken cared of most defects I have come across. However, I have mostly been working with German cars with hard paint. With softer paints, I start with the Ultimate polish with a 3 inch yellow pad. I adjust aggressiveness with speed settings, even starting at speed 3 and work my way up to 5. If that doesn't work I would do Ultimate compound on the 3 inch yellow and start at 3 again and work my way up. If that doesn't work, I would then go with red pad and work my way up again as previously stated.

just getting back into doing some home detail work myself. I will be using a Griots DA and have some UC and some UP to start with. I will be working on a 2005 dark metallic blue VW Passat Wagon. So they are known for harder paint? I was intending on using the orange griots corrective pad with UC, black finishing pad with UP, and then protecting with wax applied via a red pad. Does that make sense? I am trying not to be off topic, but am also trying to be mindful of the many variables as discussed in this thread. Also, I may have to pick up some M205 based on what the experts here seem to be saying.

davey g-force
Feb 23rd, 2015, 01:22 PM
just getting back into doing some home detail work myself. I will be using a Griots DA and have some UC and some UP to start with. I will be working on a 2005 dark metallic blue VW Passat Wagon. So they are known for harder paint? I was intending on using the orange griots corrective pad with UC, black finishing pad with UP, and then protecting with wax applied via a red pad. Does that make sense? I am trying not to be off topic, but am also trying to be mindful of the many variables as discussed in this thread. Also, I may have to pick up some M205 based on what the experts here seem to be saying.

Your plan generally sounds good.

I'm not familiar with the colors of GG pads, but I assume red is one of the softer ones for finishing / waxing? If so, then you're good to go!

Just remember to do a test spot first to see if your process is giving you the results you're after, before repeating on the whole car. If UC is taking care of the major defects, then you shouldn't need to buy M205. Just follow up with your UP.

VW's generally tend to have harder paint, but that's a generalisation. Every car is different - hence the importance of the test spot. :)

sunvalleylaw
Feb 23rd, 2015, 05:22 PM
Your plan generally sounds good.

I'm not familiar with the colors of GG pads, but I assume red is one of the softer ones for finishing / waxing? If so, then you're good to go!

Just remember to do a test spot first to see if your process is giving you the results you're after, before repeating on the whole car. If UC is taking care of the major defects, then you shouldn't need to buy M205. Just follow up with your UP.

VW's generally tend to have harder paint, but that's a generalisation. Every car is different - hence the importance of the test spot. :)

Thanks. That helps. And was my plan, but good to be reminded so I don't just start right in on the hood before trying a test patch. And yes, that is right, the Griot's red is called the waxing pad. the black the finishing pad, and the orange the corrective pad.

BillE
May 14th, 2016, 04:04 AM
what about the mirror shine hi tech yellow wax? Is that made for a rotary as well?

No problem...it's a wax. Hence application in independent on hand, or machine.

Bill

billddrummer
May 14th, 2016, 04:42 PM
Getting ready to work on the swirls on my Azera (weather finally cleared). UC with my 6" foam polishing pad (GG) and the HF D/A will most likely take care of the hood, trunk and roof. Was able to correct the door panels with the mirror glaze. And I will post some photos this time. Thanks guys (and gals)!!! Hyundai vehicles have hard paint. Which I found out when the paint laughed at my feeble first try. Live and learn.

Tempest
May 16th, 2016, 12:18 PM
This has been a very informative thread.

I come from a wood and metal working background. These industries use abrasives that are clearly defined as to their cut. It is very frustrating looking at car detailing abrasives and having no real idea as to what a product is capable of or how aggressive it is supposed to be. It's one of the main reasons I've yet to get into paint correction.

Even knife sharpening stones are graded by grit. It must be in the overall industry's best interest not to standardize these things and rely on marketing to move their product.

Michael Stoops
May 16th, 2016, 12:52 PM
This has been a very informative thread.

I come from a wood and metal working background. These industries use abrasives that are clearly defined as to their cut. It is very frustrating looking at car detailing abrasives and having no real idea as to what a product is capable of or how aggressive it is supposed to be. It's one of the main reasons I've yet to get into paint correction.

Even knife sharpening stones are graded by grit. It must be in the overall industry's best interest not to standardize these things and rely on marketing to move their product.
Part of the problem with trying to nail down a true measurement of cut with any liquid is that there are so many variables with regard to the use of said liquid.

Just take M105 as an example: We have a cut scale on our Mirror Glaze Professional compounds and polishes, but that number is when the product is used as most generally intended. In the case of M105, that is in a body shop environment with a rotary polisher and a wool cutting pad. But what happens to the cut when you use it with a less aggressive tool, like a DA polisher? Is it a high torque DA like the MT300, or a weaker tool like an old school Porter Cable 7424? Or is it a tall stroke tool like a Rupes Bigfoot 21? Maybe a direct drive tool like the Flex 3401? And then how do you use that polisher? What speed setting? What amount of pressure? And what pad are you using it with? The variables are almost endless.

When looking at wood working you obviously have different hardness of wood - pine versus oak versus mahagony - in different metals in metal working - aluminum, steel, stainless steel, copper, etc - but when working with paint the variables are, again, seemingly endless. Not only do factory paints display an enormous range of hardness, softness, touch sensitivity, etc but after market paints just expand that range. And with aftermarket paints, the painter can alter the characteristics of the paint depending on how he mixes it. Plus, paints can change as they age, just adding to the variables.

Tempest
May 23rd, 2016, 10:02 AM
A well written and argued post as usual, Michael.

However, most of those variables exist in the other fields. The type and power of sander, as you say wood hardness, open coat vs. closed coat sandpaper...etc.

Having a grit number gives a firm point of reference to the user as to how to proceed under the given conditions. Is 100 cutting too fast or coarse? Move to 120 or 150 etc.

This cannot be easily done with paint correction products, especially across different brands or lines.

Working time, ease of use, lack of dusting....these are much harder to define. But I don't think it unreasonable for the customer to know what level of material removal to expect from a product when they buy it.

(Not trying to beat up on Meguiar's products. This seems to be pervasive across the industry.)

billddrummer
May 29th, 2016, 08:54 AM
Getting ready to work on the swirls on my Azera (weather finally cleared). UC with my 6" foam polishing pad (GG) and the HF D/A will most likely take care of the hood, trunk and roof. Was able to correct the door panels with the mirror glaze. And I will post some photos this time. Thanks guys (and gals)!!! Hyundai vehicles have hard paint. Which I found out when the paint laughed at my feeble first try. Live and learn.
Update: Didn't work on the finish last time I posted because the weather turned foul again.

Will tackle it today with the HF D/A polisher (Chicago Electric brand, if anyone cares), GG foam polishing pad and UC.

Thinking that I can go straight to UW after.

Will figure out photos.

billddrummer
May 29th, 2016, 05:21 PM
Update: Didn't work on the finish last time I posted because the weather turned foul again.

Will tackle it today with the HF D/A polisher (Chicago Electric brand, if anyone cares), GG foam polishing pad and UC.

Thinking that I can go straight to UW after.

Will figure out photos.
UC got most of the swirl marks out with one application. Had to use the highest speed with the DA and heavy pressure, but it worked.

after UW looks good.

Will go with UC again the next time.

The Guz
May 29th, 2016, 06:38 PM
Glad you got most of it. The remaining defects could be RIDS




Will go with UC again the next time.

I am going to recommend a test spot with the least aggressive polish and pad before you proceed next time. Compounds are more aggressive, meaning it is removing more paint that a polish.

billddrummer
May 29th, 2016, 09:29 PM
Glad you got most of it. The remaining defects could be RIDS



I am going to recommend a test spot with the least aggressive polish and pad before you proceed next time. Compounds are more aggressive, meaning it is removing more paint that a polish.

Great idea Guz, thanks!

I reveal my ignorance--what is RIDS?

billddrummer
May 29th, 2016, 09:33 PM
Great idea Guz, thanks!

I reveal my ignorance--what is RIDS?

Found it: Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

These aren't--just leftover swirl marks. They are much less noticeable than before though.

Amazing that the dealer offered to 'fix' the finish, when they were the ones who created the flaws.

Can probably get them out with UP on the foam polishing pad, again with heavy pressure at highest setting.

Paint is hard--very hard.

The nicest benefit is that the metallic sparkles in the paint are now visible, when before they were masked by the swirl marks.

I did bump the post holding the awning over my parking spot, left a narrow scratch on the bumper which I'll fix with touchup paint and polish. Didn't go all the way through to the plastic.

That will be later this spring the next time I do a full detail.

MicrofiberMan
Jun 25th, 2016, 01:42 AM
I did my whole car with scratchx 2, it came out good

billddrummer
Jun 25th, 2016, 05:56 PM
I did my whole car with scratchx 2, it came out good

Good for you. Did you do it by hand or with a machine?

billddrummer
Jun 25th, 2016, 06:04 PM
Found it: Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

These aren't--just leftover swirl marks. They are much less noticeable than before though.

Amazing that the dealer offered to 'fix' the finish, when they were the ones who created the flaws.

Can probably get them out with UP on the foam polishing pad, again with heavy pressure at highest setting.

Paint is hard--very hard.

The nicest benefit is that the metallic sparkles in the paint are now visible, when before they were masked by the swirl marks.

I did bump the post holding the awning over my parking spot, left a narrow scratch on the bumper which I'll fix with touchup paint and polish. Didn't go all the way through to the plastic.

That will be later this spring the next time I do a full detail.
Update: Part I--Went to a body shop to get an estimate on the post bump. After looking at it, the body guy said "the paint looks fine, I have some compound to get rid of the paint transfer." With that, he came back with something which I couldn't identify, and removed the transferred paint from the bumper. Now there's only a small chip which I can easily fix with touchup paint.

Update: Part II

Did clay, UP and UPW last weekend. Noticed there are still some swirl marks that I missed from using UC the last time. Question: What path should I take now?

Hit it again with UC, knowing that's a relatively aggressive solution to something 95% of people won't ever notice?
Do another treatment with UP?
Leave it? (I consider the finish at about 85% of where I want it.)



Thanks!

MicrofiberMan
Jul 3rd, 2016, 05:35 AM
Good for you. Did you do it by hand or with a machine?
i did it with a da, ive since gone over it with m205 ultra finishing polish, im debating on using ultimate compound on iy now then finishing with 205 during my vaca in 3 weeks but its a 2014 so its prob overkill. i do have isolated defects i want to remove, ive already wet sanded sucsefully so ill prob do it again

billddrummer
Jul 3rd, 2016, 07:14 AM
Update: Part II

Did clay, UP and UPW last weekend. Noticed there are still some swirl marks that I missed from using UC the last time. Question: What path should I take now?

Hit it again with UC, knowing that's a relatively aggressive solution to something 95% of people won't ever notice?
Do another treatment with UP?
Leave it? (I consider the finish at about 85% of where I want it.)



Thanks!
Still waiting for anyone to chime in on this question.

Thanks.

MicrofiberMan
Jul 3rd, 2016, 09:16 AM
Still waiting for anyone to chime in on this question.

Thanks.
Did u do it by hand? IDK in my opinion there's always going to be some minor swirl marks that you can only see in direct sunlight at the perfect angle, It be very hard to get rid of them 100% unless you are an experienced professional with the right tools. Most of us are just getting super anal about our daily drivers in an ocd kind of way but we have to remember our limitations and what we are actually driving. Just my 2 cents, You can strive for perfection of course but you aren't going to achieve it. By this philosophy Ive let some things go on my car, before I got to the point where I'm stripping the clear coat off an otherwise new vehicle driving myself crazy over phantom scratches that no one else would ever notice anyway. How many scratches have you noticed on other peoples cars? A guy has a good sig in here saying car care is supposed to be therapy not the reason you need it. Thats good advice i think

billddrummer
Jul 3rd, 2016, 11:52 AM
Did u do it by hand? IDK in my opinion there's always going to be some minor swirl marks that you can only see in direct sunlight at the perfect angle, It be very hard to get rid of them 100% unless you are an experienced professional with the right tools. Most of us are just getting super anal about our daily drivers in an ocd kind of way but we have to remember our limitations and what we are actually driving. Just my 2 cents, You can strive for perfection of course but you aren't going to achieve it. By this philosophy Ive let some things go on my car, before I got to the point where I'm stripping the clear coat off an otherwise new vehicle driving myself crazy over phantom scratches that no one else would ever notice anyway. How many scratches have you noticed on other peoples cars? A guy has a good sig in here saying car care is supposed to be therapy not the reason you need it. Thats good advice i think
You're absolutely right. Leaving it works for me. Will clay and wax next week. Then UP two weeks from now.