PDA

View Full Version : Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT?



Brazo
Feb 20th, 2005, 02:11 AM
Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT? (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4831)


Hi everyone, great forum btw. I have been a Meguiar's fan for about a year now and have amassed an extensive collection of both pro and consumer products. I will be detailing my cars soon with my new pc and after reading about sealant bonding concerns on an another forum I have the following question.

If using a polish with fillers/glazes such as no. 80 then will the oils in the product affect the ability of NXT to bond with the paintwork?

Would I be better off using no. 82 which iirc doesn't have such oils?

TIA

scrub
Feb 20th, 2005, 07:41 AM
Hi there and welcome to the board.

This is a great question. I also had the same concern. I've used #7 Show Car Glaze (http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguiars/product_detailpage.cfm?parentURL=index_pro.cfm&sku=M-07&store=pro) topped with NXT and had great results. The #7 is very oily with no abrasive properties. I can't speak for most waxes, but the NXT does have some cleaners that help prep the surface to aid in bonding. The interesting thing about the NXT cleaners is they don't remove all the polish or effects of the polish. So after I polish, I can be assured the paint's wet and shiny appearance will be locked in by the NXT.

As for the fillers, I'm concerned with fillers. If I'm detailing a car for a client I'm not selling filled in repairs. I'm selling surface defect removal (within reason using the PC). I remove the fillers to check my work in test areas. This also assures me that the swirls removed from the paint won't return after a few washes. The filler issue was a big sticking point for me as I didn't want to market repairs only to be accused of selling snake oil. For some fillers are a good thing.

I've only used #82 a few times so I can't really talk about that product yet.

Good luck

RamAirV1
Feb 20th, 2005, 08:21 AM
#82 is a combination cleaner polish, so you can expect that it has some fillers in it.

Meguiar's polishes, waxes, and sealants are designed to work together as a system and are compatible with each other.

I have never experienced any sealant bonding issues when applying NXT over a Meguiar's polish. And I've never seen the NXT remove a noticeable amount of polish.

RamAirV1

Tim Lingor
Feb 20th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Hey,

Meguiar's products are designed to work as a system. As such, you will have no problems using a Meguiar's pure polish and topping it with a Meguiar's sealant or wax. :)

I think we also need to be careful with the usage of the term "fillers." Meguiar's uses special lubricating oils which allow one to clean the paint's surface with diminishing abrasives without scouring the surface from excessive heat and or friction from the buffing process. They are not fillers per se. Moreover after years and years of using even the pure polishes, I have found that they really do not cover-up all that much. Instead, it will add richness to the paint.

A product like #80 is rich in TS oils, and it can be covered with a Meguiar's sealant or wax without a problem! :xyxthumbs

Cheers! :)

Tim

Brazo
Feb 20th, 2005, 12:10 PM
Cheers guys, you have put my mind at ease:xyxthumbs

Mike Phillips
Feb 22nd, 2005, 10:23 PM
I posted this to a similar thread but thought I would add it to this one also...

I read a lot of people's opinion on this subject on multiple forums and most of the time it relates back to somebody's advice to wash your car with strong detergent soap to remove anything from the surface so that somebody's polymer will bond to the surface.

From one of our chemists...


A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.

Here's something else to think about, although in a different industry, there are parallels in the bonding and protecting topic that apply.

Meguiar's created the first mold release wax for the infant mold release industry in 1950. To this date, M08 Maximum Mold Release Wax continues to be one of the most popular mold release waxes in the world.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2MoldReleasePasteWaxes.jpg

Recently, Meguiar's introduced a brand new synthetic liquid polymer mold release wax system called Meguiar's Velocity Liquid Synthetic Mold Release System (http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguiars/velocity_home.cfm).

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2VelocitySystem.jpg

Now let me tie this together and show how Meguiar's mold release systems, both paste waxes and liquid synthetic polymer systems are vital to creating finished parts like Yachts, and how important it is that the mold release wax bond, or adhere to the mold.


A new, or green mold is originally prepped by sanding smooth the surface and then compounding the surface to remove the sanding marks.

After that, the mold surface is polished to a high gloss. The smoother and glossier the surface can be made, the smoother and glossier the part being reproduced from the mold will be. This cuts down on post-production finishing work.

Now follow me on this....

The polishes used for machine polishing the molds are both very rich in Meguiar's trade secret polishing oils. These rich polishing oils help to create a brilliant high gloss finish on the mold. The two most used polishes for this process are,

M03 Machine Glaze

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2MachineGlaze.jpg

M82 Mold Polish

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2MoldPolish.jpg

After polishing the mold with either of these two products, Meguiar's recommends applying the mold release wax next, either the traditional paste wax system, or the new liquid synthetic polymer system.

These are to be applied onto the mold surface after polishing, the excess polish is wiped off, but the mold is not washed with dish soap to remove any remaining polishing oils because they are part of the system. As the chemist stated above,



A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.

Now it is vital that the mold release wax adhere to the surface to create a barrier coating to prevent the lay-up material, (usually polyester resin with a catalyst), from sticking to the mold. If the mold release wax fails to bond to the surface evenly over the entire surface, to create this barrier layer, then the resin will stick to the mold and the part will not release.

This is called, sticking a mold and it's not a good thing! Imagine sticking a 75' Yacht mold! The owner of the boat building business would be out the mold, the raw materials to make the part, (the part is the yacht), and the labor invested in everything, plus the down time due to the fact that the mold is not producing a sale-able product.

Ouch!

If you have ever worked with polyester resin, or even mixing 2-part epoxy glue together, then you know how sticky these materials are.

Do you understand how important it is now for a mold release wax to bond or adhere to the surface of the mold?

Now think about it for a few minutes... Meguiar's has been producing pure polishes since 1901. We've been making the M03 Machine Glaze since sometime in the 1930's, (I think), maybe 1940's or 1950's, but I'm pretty sure since the 1930's. We've been making mold release wax since 1950, that's 55 years of production for M08 Maximum Mold Release wax.

A lot of boats have been successfully built using Meguiar's mold release wax systems with a long track record of not sticking molds. If Meguiar's though it would be better to wash a mold with dish soap, or wipe it down with a 50/50 mixture of water and Isopropyl Alcohol before applying a mold release wax so that it will properly bond, then we would recommend this and we would have started recommending it a long time ago. But removing any Meguiar's polishing oils from the surface of a mold is not the best way to insure our waxes adhere and thus we don't recommend removing them before applying our waxes in fact just the opposite, we recommend polishing the surface first, and then applying the wax.

While boat molds and car finishes are very different items, the same ideas of cleaning, polishing and then applying a wax apply to both surfaces when using Meguiar's products.

Meguiar's chemists insure that all the products in our systems, whether it's the Velocity Mold Release System, or the Deep Crystal System, work with one another. each product building on the results from the previous product and process. This is called a synergistic compatibility. Each step in the system moving the process forward until the end-result is achieved, a beautiful, high gloss finish.

If your goal is to create a beautiful show car finish on our car, then trust in Meguiar's to see you through to success. We've been helping professionals and enthusiasts around the world to showcase their talents for over 100 years!

Mike

Brazo
Feb 22nd, 2005, 11:16 PM
Wow! Well ...........when you put it like that it makes sense even more:xyxthumbs

:bow

hpjunkie
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:53 PM
thanks for the infor everyone! Im learning a lot on here.:xyxthumbs

Setec Astronomy
Jan 16th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Perhaps I am ignorant on this subject (since I have never molded a yacht), but I thought that mold release was applied prior to molding each part, and that the idea was actually for the mold release to transfer from the mold to the part, which would allow for the release of the part from the mold, rather than the mold relase bonding to the mold and staying there. That is a fundamentally different idea than a car wax bonding to the surface of your paint, where you want it to stay, rather than be washed off by rain, carwashing, etc. However, I may be wrong on this, just something that has been stuck in my head for a long time.

Mike Phillips
Jan 16th, 2006, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Setec Astronomy
Perhaps I am ignorant on this subject (since I have never molded a yacht), but I thought that mold release was applied prior to molding each part, and that the idea was actually for the mold release to transfer from the mold to the part, which would allow for the release of the part from the mold, rather than the mold release bonding to the mold and staying there.

I believe there are some products like this, but not all products work like this. Our mold release paste waxes as well as our Velocity polymer system are designed to create a barrier film on the mold and remain there after the part is pulled. Some level of release agent is removed from the mold with each pull as this is the nature of any product wearing off, but that's not the intended goal.

In a production environment, you want to prepare the mold and then try to get as many pulls, off the mold as you can before having to start over and clean the mold and then prepare the mold again for production by applying whatever system you're using for a mold release.



That is a fundamentally different idea than a car wax bonding to the surface of your paint, where you want it to stay, rather than be washed off by rain, car washing, etc. However, I may be wrong on this, just something that has been stuck in my head for a long time.

Good questions Mike. I used the mold release analogy for the topic of this thread because of the high importance attributed to the mold release wax, whether a traditional wax or a synthetic polymer based product, to bond or adhere to the mold.

It is vitally important that this bond take place or the risk of sticking a mold will become a reality.

For the most part, Zaino users try to teach people that the only way a polymer sealant will stick or adhere to an automotive paint is to first insure the surface is squeaky clean by washing the paint with a strong detergent. While this may be true for their technology, what I have tried to show through the use of the mold release analogy, (A process that has been used since 1950 throughout the world), is that when it comes to Meguiar's technology, this is simply not true.

This doesn't stop Zaino users from droning on and on and on about washing cars with Dawn to strip the paint clean so Z5 and Z2 can bond to it. It does however provide a certain amount of job security for me in that I will be able to continually try to undo the damage they do by teaching people a process specific to the Zaino product, but with no application to other products including Meguiar's.

Mike Phillips
Nov 14th, 2008, 06:30 PM
***Bump***

TTT = To the top

:)

Alfisti
Nov 19th, 2008, 08:35 AM
This is a very interesting thread. I've learnt something important!

akimel
Nov 19th, 2008, 09:48 AM
This is a interesting topic for me, though I have no scientific training whatsoever. But one thing is clear to me after reading dozens of internet forum articles addressing the question "Does a traditional glaze (or pure polish) inhibit the ability of a synthetic sealant to bond to the paint surface?"--most folks who write on this topic do not have scientific backgrounds either, and they don't know any more about this subject than I do. They may write with a pretended authority, but they don't truly know what they are talking about.

I have emailed a couple of the companies that make synthetic sealants and asked them if I could apply their product on top of M07 without affecting the durability of the sealant. One told me that I could--no problem (Blackfire). Two told me that I should not (Wolfgang and Duragloss). This confirms Mike's statement above that this question really is product-dependent and thus defies grand generalizations.

I wish the internet wax-pundits would stop pontificating as if they have advanced degrees in chemistry and physics. I hate flame wars and so try to avoid internet confrontations; but I have enough experience with the scholarly universe to know that unsubstantiated knowledge-claims, no matter how authoritatively and dogmatically advanced, are simply opinions; and as jazz musician Art Blakey amusingly remarked, "Opinions are like ***holes--everyone's got one."

When someone makes a scientific claim about waxes and sealants, I want to know the following: (1) Do you have an advanced degree in chemistry? (2) Is your claim backed by testing and evidence that would be accepted by accredited scientists? (3) What are your sources? Anyone can master the jargon of a particular discipline and present themselves as an authority. The internet is full of pseudo-scientists and false prophets.

So if you want to know if a particular synthetic sealant is compatible with a particular glaze or polish, you need to ask the manufacturer directly. They are the only ones who know the chemical composition of their products and know how their products interact with other products.

Cheers,
Al

Mike Phillips
Feb 13th, 2009, 10:31 AM
:bump2

3Fitty
Feb 13th, 2009, 11:38 AM
First time I've ever seen this topic and I'm glad you bumped it. Great info. Very informative.

Mike Phillips
Mar 4th, 2009, 10:04 AM
:bump2

xantonin
May 6th, 2009, 08:44 AM
This topic cleared up some confusion regarding polishes to me as well. I still have other questions on polishes but I'll read more in the other topics first. Thanks!

keesue
May 6th, 2009, 08:53 AM
I have always wondered about this but accepted the fact that Megs worked as a system and assumed it was OK. I used #7 followed by #16 way back when I first got started and my cars always looked great. This however, explains how it works.

Thanks much for this.

02zx9r
May 13th, 2009, 10:05 AM
I will :bump2 this one

Jossy92
Aug 18th, 2009, 05:50 AM
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I recall threads by experienced detailers talking in terms of "reasonably" removing swirls. What do you do with the remaining swirls? Seems like a polish=filler(?) would be the next step in leveling the paint and aid in achieving the thinnest possible application of wax.

Also, I have read that as clear coats age they become more porous, so rather than filling the pores with sealant/wax wouldn't I want to use a polish with fillers to help the wax adhere and penetrate the pores with the thinnest film (to reduce white residue)?

Does porous clear coat encourage embedded contaminants?

I am not sure, but some hi-end polishes (Megs) must include fillers for a reason, while low to mid range manufacturers "knock" fillers without suggesting an alternative except to keep removing a built in sacrificial layer. Is a defect that doesn't penetrate to the paint proof that the clearcoat is thick enough to do it's job? Why remove it just to remove it?

How would an experienced pro use a filler and when. I have seen the hint of answer when I read about classic cars with fragile paint. But it seems so called fillers have a place before it's too late. When do you quit correcting and start preserving.

I am not complaining just very confused. but it sure is easier to complain than to keep hitting the "search" button...

mongo
Aug 18th, 2009, 11:02 AM
I would say these polishes/glazes help improve the bonding of a Meguiars wax or sealant. These also ad to the look thats why I choose to use a combo glaze/cleaner before applying sealant.

BTW: Can I apply Swirl free polish by hand knowing i won't be cleaning it will be more for the effect of the polish as for the pop it provides.

regards mongo :dp:

Mike Phillips
Jan 30th, 2014, 05:05 AM
BTW: Can I apply Swirl free polish by hand knowing i won't be cleaning it will be more for the effect of the polish as for the pop it provides.

regards mongo :dp:


Yes.

#9 Hi-Tech Swirl Remover is a great light or fine cut polish for light cleaning by hand that will at the same time restore a clear, high gloss shine perfect for sealing with your favorite wax or sealant.


:)