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chip douglas
Sep 30th, 2004, 06:04 PM
How to avoid swirls and holograms? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4966)


Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ? I was trying to attempt making a clear coated finish perfect using only a rotary, and I've almost concluded it can't be done and needs to be followed up with the PC.

If I do not wash the car and bring it out in the bright sunlight, then it looks perfect with #82, BUT if I remove the #82, then I can see the very light holograms.

My car is black btw.

Marc

Mike Phillips
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by chip douglas
Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ? I was trying to attempt making a clear coated finish perfect using only a rotary, and I've almost concluded it can't be done and needs to be followed up with the PC.

If I do not wash the car and bring it out in the bright sunlight, then it looks perfect with #82, BUT if I remove the #82, then I can see the very light holograms.

My car is black btw.

Marc

Not always. It really depends on product selection, skill, technique and paint hardness, or paint workability. THe latter two factors are things which you have no control over. Having too soft of a paint system can also work against you because the paint will be easily scratched or swirled.

I would say that in most cases, if you wash the car after polishing with a rotary buffer and any companies pad and polish, and then pull the car into bright light such as sunlight, then you are going to see some light swirls or holograms depending on your process. Most polishes are easily removed with water and soap, especially detergent soaps.

To create a 100% swirl-free finish requires that you do everything you can to the best of your abilities to remove as many of the deeper defects from the finish as you can using a compound or cleaner/polish. Then using good technique, the correct pad and a finer polish, you re-polish the area and massage out any remaining haze or swirls from the first step.

If you do everything right you can get to about 98% to 99% of the way to your goal of a swirl free finish. In order to take your results over the top to perfection, you will have to re-polish the finish using a machine that oscillates instead of rotates, and/or apply a product that will fill-in and eliminate from your view, the very fine, or shallow swirls that may still remain.

Just to note, achieving perfection on a painted surface will always be influenced by things like paint hardness and/or softness. The harder the paint, the more difficult it will be to massage out each and every defect, while very soft paints will be prone to marring or micro-scratching. There is a sweet spot for paint harness that gives you the best of both worlds, hardness for durability and resistance to deteriorating, yet soft enough that it can be successfully polished. This unfortunately is something you can't control.

Your point of origin, or reference must also be considered. If you start out with a finish that has gross swirls, as in deep swirls possibly instilled by running the car repeatedly through a mechanical car wash, or perhaps it was machine buffed using a wool pad and a compound that doesn't utilize diminishing abrasives, no polish or wax is going to be able to fill-in deep swirls like this and make the paint look good. So if by using a rotary buffer you can effectively remove the deep swirls, scratches, oxidation, etching, (or whatever the defects are), and create a finish that is 99% of the way swirl-free, then the difference between the condition of the finish you started with and the condition of the finish you have created will be dramatic.

Final polishing with the dual action polisher and a fine polish like our #82 Swirl Free Polish or our #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, and even our #80 Speed Glaze, or a good quality polish or wax, (or both), will be enough to carry your results over the top.

It all comes down to the fact that in order to remove a defect you have to touch the surface, (in one way or another), and remove small particles of paint in an effort to level or flatten the surface. The trick then is to use a system that is able to remove defects, without instilling its own defects.

Does this help?

Mike

Desertdawg
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Hi Marc,
Sounds like it's time for you to order a couple of new products.

First off, I only use a rotary, and while I'm not a professional, I can still achieve spectacular results, I think using the correct product is my biggest asset.

I would recommend using some #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 (http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguiars/product_detail.cfm?sku=M-09) with the appropriate Meguiar’s foam buffing pad (http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguiars/product_detail.cfm?sku=W-90) This will follow the MOL slogan, "Use the least abrasive product you can"

Also there are some good points to learn by watching the Barry Meguiar’s Swirl Marks Clinic (http://www.meguiars.com/clinics/clinics_template.cfm).

Desertdawg
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Dang it, beat to the post button by Mike again......
2 lousy minutes...:xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs

Mike Phillips
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by chip douglas
Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ?

When you say a finishing pad, which pad are your referring to?

Mike

chip douglas
Sep 30th, 2004, 10:30 PM
Megs's finishing pad Miike.

Mike Phillips
Sep 30th, 2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by chip douglas
Megs's finishing pad Mike.

Check. Just wanted to make sure you didn't mean finishing pad as in a wool finishing pad.

Mike

chip douglas
Oct 1st, 2004, 05:13 AM
I never use wool pads Mike :). But is it normal to get light holograms from Meg's finishing pads ? Could it be the pad is worn and is the cause of those problems, as I didn't get any holograms on my girlfriend's car. Perhaps her paint was easier to work with and it is a SS, and mine is BC/CC.

I'd just like to know what can cause holograms with a finishing pad, as it is ever so soft to start with.

thanks

Marc

chip douglas
Oct 1st, 2004, 05:48 AM
Mike,

I'm sure you'll understand if I tell you that it gets very confusing, as some swear they can bring the paint flawless with the rotary alone, while others swear a PC has to be used, and the rotary buffer will never make a paint perfect alone.

There is however something I puzzled about which is : last summer I had no experience with the buffer, and didn't get any holograms. I was using 3M's polishing pad as well as their PI III machine glaze. I've tried doing the same thing this year with the same combo, and got holograms. I'm lost. To add even more confusion, on the trunk lid using Meg's finishing pad (this year, on my black car) I didn't get any holograms, which tells me there might be something wrong with my techique on other panels.

Mike Phillips
Dec 28th, 2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by chip douglas
Mike,

I'm sure you'll understand if I tell you that it gets very confusing, as some swear they can bring the paint flawless with the rotary alone,

Some people I've met in my life never think to inspect their work in bright sunlight, they only look at the results they get in their shop lighting. To their eyes, and in their perspective, it's swirl-free and flawless. So the lesson here is not everyone uses the same standard to judge their work.

I worked with a paint shop in the last year or so that has two very talented painters, but they don't do the wet sanding, cutting and buffing. I was asked to take a look at the finished work as the painter was very proud of his work. The detailer had just finishing his final buff with the rotary buffer; I was asked what I thought of the results? I said, "It looked good in the shade", but let's move the car into the sun and inspect it. We moved the car into the sun and low and behold the hood was completely filled with swirls. (We only pushed the front of the car into the sun, I'm sure the entire finish looked the same). It could be the painter had no idea how his work was going out the door if he never inspected the work in two kinds of light.




while others swear a PC has to be used, and the rotary buffer will never make a paint perfect alone.

See my first reply.


There is however something I puzzled about which is : last summer I had no experience with the buffer, and didn't get any holograms. I was using 3M's polishing pad as well as their PI III machine glaze. I've tried doing the same thing this year with the same combo, and got holograms. I'm lost. To add even more confusion, on the trunk lid using Meg's finishing pad (this year, on my black car) I didn't get any holograms, which tells me there might be something wrong with my technique on other panels.

See my first reply.

Mike

Ojai
Aug 13th, 2008, 04:37 PM
You should never have finish with a PC to get flawless results. If you use the right techniques when finishing it will be perfect. The only time I use a PC instead of my Makita is on composite panels to keep heat down.

Mike Phillips
Aug 13th, 2008, 09:34 PM
You should never have finish with a PC to get flawless results. If you use the right techniques when finishing it will be perfect. The only time I use a PC instead of my Makita is on composite panels to keep heat down.

Just to note, in some cases it's not about you or your choice of products it's about the paint, some paints don't polish out as well as others.


:wavey

asim_296
Oct 14th, 2008, 03:21 PM
1- make sure pads + panel are clean
2- use the massage techniqe specially with diminishing abrasives, decrease your hand pressure after couple of passes throu single application.

use these steps also in the spot area.

Dav_C
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:20 AM
I find finishing pad (W9006) at low rpm (about 200) works very well with #80. Not all machines can do 200 rpm though. For reference, that's on a Honda factory paint.

Mike Phillips
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:42 AM
I find finishing pad (W9006) at low rpm (about 200) works very well with #80. Not all machines can do 200 rpm though. For reference, that's on a Honda factory paint.

Interesting.

And after wiping the M80 residue and inspecting the paint in full, bright sunlight there were no swirls?

:scratchhead1

Holden_Caulfield04
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:51 AM
Curious, what machine operates at 200 rpm? I know the Flex 3403 rotary starts at 1100, the Dewalt DW849 at 1000 rpm and I believe the Hitachi rotary does as well. I always thought the Makita had the slowest starting speed at 600 rpm.

Mike Phillips
Oct 15th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Curious, what machine operates at 200 rpm? I know the Flex 3403 rotary starts at 1100, the Dewalt DW849 at 1000 rpm and I believe the Hitachi rotary does as well. I always thought the Makita had the slowest starting speed at 600 rpm.

Could be a tool specific to Singapore?

I love M80 Speed Glaze, it's my go-to product for restoring oxidized single stage paints, but I've never found it to be the best finishing polish with a rotary buffer on most clear coat paints.

People all see things differently thus my follow-up question above. Great if it worked for him, but not sure finishing with M80 using a rotary buffer at any speed is a good process for the majority of people working on clear coat paints.

:confused:

Dav_C
Oct 15th, 2008, 07:29 AM
I was using a Flex 3401, the rpm range is 100 - 480rpm. This machine is good for finishing and polish. But I'll not say it is suitable for compound use.

Makita 600rpm is not the lowest. In 220V version, Flex has a L602VR which operates from 0 - 2400 rpm. Can't find even one product review in English language yet. Took some risk, ordered one, should be arriving in 1 week time.

Didn't inspect in full sunlight, aren't they too strong to even open the eyes and see directly? Please tell me if I'm wrong. Where I live, the car park lighting is orange in colour. These lights (dim surrounding with strong light) reveals the most swirls even those not visible in some day light situation, in my eyes.

Mike Phillips
Oct 15th, 2008, 07:31 AM
As long as you're happy with the results that's all that matters.

Don't want to see hordes of people trying to duplicate your results using the products and process you used unless they test first and then inspect and make sure it's working for them.

:xyxthumbs