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Classiccars
Jul 7th, 2005, 04:00 PM
I have been told by a customer service guy at Meguiars that there are two types of silicon, one that is harmful to leather and one that is not. He also told me, Meguiars puts the harmless kind in their leather treatment products.

Does anyone have the "receipe" for each of the two kinds, along with the technical name for each kind?

Jim
1999 Jaguar XJ8--with Connolly leather!

TOGWT
Jul 8th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Silicone:
[: or polysiloxanes, are inorganic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone (...-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...) with side groups attached to the silicon atoms]

•Good: Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) is a basically inert, water based, amino functional polymer resin that doesn't migrate (dry out) the plasticizers from materials, has less UV radiation absorption and dust attraction properties. Chemists use water-in-oil emulsions, to reduce emulsion particle size, to stabilize emulsions, and to improve spreading and coverage of wax products. Most modern silicone formulas are water soluble (no petroleum), and are completely inert.The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester. Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with Polydimethylsiloxane

•The Bad: Dimethyl is derived from Aromatic hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates, and is usually formulated with a solvent, hexane and petroleum oils, which are environmentally unsound and give a slick, oily finish, which attracts dust and dirt and amplifies sunlight causing vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack, this type of silicone also causes ‘sling’, which means the product will land on body panels causing a black stain. It also causes rubber compounds along with sun iteration to remove the micro-wax in tyres as well as its carbon black (it's what makes tyre’s the colour they are)

•And The Ugly: Silicone is an active ingredient in sun UV amplification. As a low quality silicone dressing evaporates away, the silicone oil is left behind, the sun then amplifies these residues, and the drying process is accelerated. This causes rubber, EDPM, vinyl and plastics to dry out, which turns them grey or brown, losing their flexibility and prematurely fail. Water-based dressings do not contain oils or petroleum distillates and provide a non- greasy, natural looking satin finish.

•For a Few Dollars More: Hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates can be further purified, re-distilled, reacted and combined with various other chemicals to produce a wide range of environmentally safe (water-based) and useful silicone products.

Classiccars
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Mike--the guy I talked to in customer service says you could be a big help. You have been.

So surely Meguiars does not use any of the bad kinds of silicon in any of its products?

Finally, I have a 1999 Jaguar XJ8 with Connolly leather. I have heard that the surface of modern leathers is such that a "treatment" wont absorb into the leather. Is that true, and in particular, how would I know that Meguiars Gold Class leather cleaner and conditioner would be absorbing into the leather of my Jaguar?

By the way, I believe Connolly ceased making leather a couple of years ago. But Jaguar's literature for the 1999 models states they have Connolly leather.

Looking forward to your response.

-Jim

Fr0zen
Jul 11th, 2005, 05:18 PM
What is Meguiars Hyper Dressing, the second one ?

Mike Phillips
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Classiccars
Mike--the guy I talked to in customer service says you could be a big help. You have been.

So surely Meguiar's does not use any of the bad kinds of silicon in any of its products?

-Jim

Hi Jim,

"In regards to your good silicone/bad silicon question, let me see if I can clear this up a bit.

I believe what Customer Care was trying to explain was there are many types of silicones available and of these different silicone ingredients, some can be harmful while others are completely safe. While it may have sounded as though they we're saying there are only two types of silicone available, it was just a simple way of saying there are good silicones and bad silicones. We apologize for any confusion.

All the raw materials we use are completely safe, and will not damage the surface they are formulated to be used on. Any additional information regarding our formulas or ingredients we use is proprietary information and can’t be shared."

In the big picture of life, sometimes you just have to place your trust in the name on the bottle. :xyxthumbs

Don
Jul 11th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by TOGWT
Silicone:
[: or polysiloxanes, are inorganic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone (...-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...) with side groups attached to the silicon atoms]

•Good:

•The Bad:

•And The Ugly:

•For a Few Dollars More:

Do I detect a Clint Eastwood fan?

Mike Phillips
Aug 1st, 2005, 03:52 PM
In this thread, one of our forum members posted a reply including information on silicones that our R&D department concluded was filled with misinformation and inaccuracies.

Below we have included some information that counters what the forum member posted to demonstrate that you can't always believe what you read on the Internet. Often times people on the Internet merely copy and paste information found on other websites by doing a simple google search. Often times this information is out of context as well as inaccurate and unreliable.


Meguiar's Statement on silicones as it relates to the post on our forum in the above included link.
Silicones, or polysiloxanes, are inorganic synthetic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone that can be composed into a wide variety of materials. They can vary in consistency from liquid to gel to rubber to hard plastic. The most common type is linear polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS).

PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults.

Thus, PDMS are ideal for and found in many products, such as lubricants, insulation, adhesives, sealants, gaskets, car parts, medical devices, children toys, dishware, gloss enhancer and even Silly Putty

There are many misunderstandings and misstatements about silicones and their use in automotive appearance products. To help and clarify and provide a basis of scientific fact here are just a few examples:

Notes:
The text in Red was posted by a forum member.
The text in Back is from a professional chemist.


- “Dimethyl is derived from Aromatic hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates”
Not true… They are not from “Aromatic” hydrocarbons.


- “Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) is a basically inert, water based”
Not true.... PDMS is oil soluble.


- “The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester."
Not true... It is not a wax, not an ester, it is a unique chemistry based upon inorganic materials.


- “Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with Polydimethylsiloxane”
Not true…PDMS is non-reactive.


- “Dimethyl causes vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack”
Not true… PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults.


- “This type of silicone also causes ‘sling’,"
Not true… Anything placed on tires will have a tendency to sling due to centrifugal force.


- “Hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates can be further purified, re-distilled, reacted and combined with various other chemicals to produce a wide range of environmentally safe (water-based) and useful silicone products.”
Not true… Silicones are not hydrocarbon distillates


- “Silicone is an active ingredient in sun UV amplification."
Not true… Silicone does not change the effects of sunlight and its properties.


- “As a low quality silicone dressing evaporates away, the silicone oil is left behind, the sun then amplifies these residues, and the drying process is accelerated.”
Not true… PDMS that are used in tire products do not evaporate, nor do they change the effects of sunlight and it’s properties.

End of Meguiar's Statement



Note the goal here is not to embarrass or disparage anyone on our forum from posting information and specifically information on complex topics such as the chemistry of silicones, but to point out that it's easy to copy and paste information found on other websites or out of a book from the library, but as scientific sounding as the information may read, if the person posting the information is not a professional chemist, trained in the profession of chemistry, then anything they post should be questioned, and if questioned, the person posting it should be able to back it up with scientific facts or discontinue posting information they can't back up and don't generate themselves from their own learned knowledge on the subject.

It's important to remember that the goal of Meguiar's Online is to help people get the best results from their time, money and efforts. As such, the primary focus of our our discussions should be on the performance of the products, not the ingredients in our products and the chemistry behind them.

Meguiar's, just like every other company in the business of manufacturing car care chemicals is not going to tell everyone what's in our products and how they are made. Its ridiculous to even think that any car wax manufacture would do this.

It's okay to be interested as well as curious as to what's in a product and how it works, I can assure you I'm interested and curious in these things also. But at the end of the day, the big picture is the big picture, and that's choosing and using the right products for the job and the results you achieve.

That's what this forum is here for, that's our goal, helping you to choose and use the correct product in the right way and achieve the results you're looking for.

armand
Aug 2nd, 2005, 06:21 AM
Now y'all know why TOGWT was kicked out of another auto detail bulleting board - misinformation & plagiarism.

Emblem
Feb 11th, 2006, 12:07 PM
- “Dimethyl causes vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack”


"Not true… PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults"


The above statement (Black) is true for polydimethylsiloxane but the red statement is true for Dimethyl Silicone. PDMS and DS are completely different products. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ref: Yes I have actually created an account to respond to this message but DS and PDMS are absolutely worlds apart in terms of their side effects and benefits and thought it was probably worth creating an account to clarify.

ps I am not entirely sure where the original poster got his/her info from but it sounds like a case of chinese whispers to me. ;)

Jim

danielsan
Feb 11th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Below we have included some information that counters what the forum member posted to demonstrate that you can't always believe what you read on the Internet. Often times people on the Internet merely copy and paste information found on other websites by doing a simple google search. Often times this information is out of context as well as inaccurate and unreliable.

How far does the rabbit hole go? Here is why you shouldn't necessary accept everything you read on forums as fact, although I have to say the mods here do an AMAZING job here of reconciling fact from, well, you-know-what.

This appears to be the source for the majority of the misinformation, a corvette forum dated 2003 (http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=24950)

I hope this is a source and not a plagarizer. Otherwise, I strongly question the credibility of this site's news. (http://www.goodspeedmotoring.com/?page=interiorfinishing&itsel=1&PHPSESSID=97ad011917f78c69e973a5d10f607cfc)

Tread on MOL that perhaps should be linked here as well for clarification... (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=171)

Same statement, plus some more, accepted as fact on a different corvette forum (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=949454&page=1)

Here is a poor sap who appears to be propagating the information copied and pasted from one of the other sites, most likely. Some of the characters didn't even format correctly :rolleyes:l (http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18697&goto=nextnewest)

Apparently, you really have to watch it on corvette forums <playfull jab> (http://digitalcorvettes.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=24950&perpage=15)

I mean, how many times can you seriously post the same thing? And I thought I spent too much time on MOL, can't even imagine posting the same thing a dozen times! (http://autopia.org/forum/showpost.php?p=460213&postcount=30)

Mike Phillips
Feb 11th, 2006, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Emblem
- “Dimethyl causes vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack”


"Not true… PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults"


The above statement (Black) is true for polydimethylsiloxane but the red statement is true for Dimethyl Silicone. PDMS and DS are completely different products. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'll run this by one of the chemists and see what they say, they usually think most of this type of banter is much-a-do-about-nothing as what it finally comes down to is to find a company that you can trust because they know what they're doing versus following the advise of so many self-appointed gurus copying and pasting something they read somewhere else.


Ref: Yes I have actually created an account to respond to this message but DS and PDMS are absolutely worlds apart in terms of their side effects and benefits and thought it was probably worth creating an account to clarify.
Were always glad to see lurkers turn into active members as long as the purpose of their membership is to learn more or help others.


ps I am not entirely sure where the original poster got his/her info from but it sounds like a case of Chinese whispers to me. ;)

Jim

No one knows where TOGWT gets any of his words, I asked him over and over again to cite reference and back-up what he was posting as fact, science, truth, as well as to give credit to where he was copying and pasting the words he was posting and he visited this site over and over again yet never ponied up to the requests.

fetuss10
Feb 19th, 2007, 12:36 PM
so its safe to say mcguirs offers products with the safe silicones?

Mike Phillips
Feb 19th, 2007, 02:12 PM
so its safe to say mcguirs offers products with the safe silicones?


As posted earlier...



unless you're getting your car ready to be painted, as in you're just about to push the car or drive the car into a paint booth to have fresh paint sprayed onto it, it really doesn't matter. Silicone is inert, it wont hurt anything .

kdkrone
Feb 26th, 2007, 06:31 AM
So with all of the interior products listed on the website, how do I choose the best one to keep the naugahyde on my dash from cracking? There appear to be quite a few products...! Which do what??

Thanks
Ken K

Mike Phillips
Feb 26th, 2007, 07:37 AM
So with all of the interior products listed on the website, how do I choose the best one to keep the naugahyde on my dash from cracking? There appear to be quite a few products...! Which do what??

Thanks
Ken K

The problem of having the dash on your car crack has pretty much been overcome with new advances in plastic technology, for the most part, if a car is given even a little care you just don't see the dash cracking problems like were a problem back in the 1960's and the 1970's.


As for which one is best for you?

All Meguiar's interior dressing protectants clean, condition and protect, for the most part you can base your decision on personal preference or application method as they will all do a great job of protection your dash from cracking and fading.