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Classiccars
Jul 7th, 2005, 04:00 PM
The good and the bad types of silicone (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7368)


I have been told by a customer service guy at Meguiar's that there are two types of silicon, one that is harmful to leather and one that is not. He also told me, Meguiar's puts the harmless kind in their leather treatment products.

Does anyone have the "recipe" for each of the two kinds, along with the technical name for each kind?

Jim
1999 Jaguar XJ8--with Connolly leather!

TOGWT
Jul 8th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Silicone:
[: or polysiloxanes, are inorganic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone (...-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...) with side groups attached to the silicon atoms]

•Good: Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) is a basically inert, water based, amino functional polymer resin that doesn't migrate (dry out) the plasticizers from materials, has less UV radiation absorption and dust attraction properties. Chemists use water-in-oil emulsions, to reduce emulsion particle size, to stabilize emulsions, and to improve spreading and coverage of wax products. Most modern silicone formulas are water soluble (no petroleum), and are completely inert.The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester. Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with Polydimethylsiloxane

•The Bad: Dimethyl is derived from Aromatic hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates, and is usually formulated with a solvent, hexane and petroleum oils, which are environmentally unsound and give a slick, oily finish, which attracts dust and dirt and amplifies sunlight causing vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack, this type of silicone also causes ‘sling’, which means the product will land on body panels causing a black stain. It also causes rubber compounds along with sun iteration to remove the micro-wax in tyres as well as its carbon black (it's what makes tyre’s the colour they are)

•And The Ugly: Silicone is an active ingredient in sun UV amplification. As a low quality silicone dressing evaporates away, the silicone oil is left behind, the sun then amplifies these residues, and the drying process is accelerated. This causes rubber, EDPM, vinyl and plastics to dry out, which turns them grey or brown, losing their flexibility and prematurely fail. Water-based dressings do not contain oils or petroleum distillates and provide a non- greasy, natural looking satin finish.

•For a Few Dollars More: Hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates can be further purified, re-distilled, reacted and combined with various other chemicals to produce a wide range of environmentally safe (water-based) and useful silicone products.

Mike Phillips
Aug 1st, 2005, 11:16 AM
In this thread posted in our Interior Care Forum, The good and the bad types of silicone (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=54756), one of our forum members posted a reply including information on silicones that our R&D department concluded was filled with misinformation and inaccuracies.

Below we have included some information that counters what the forum member posted to demonstrate that you can't always believe what you read on the Internet. Often times people on the Internet merely copy and paste information found on other websites by doing a simple google search. Often times this information is out of context as well as inaccurate and unreliable.


Meguiar's Statement on silicones as it relates to the post on our forum in the above included link.
Silicones, or polysiloxanes, are inorganic synthetic polymers consisting of a silicon-oxygen backbone that can be composed into a wide variety of materials. They can vary in consistency from liquid to gel to rubber to hard plastic. The most common type is linear polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS).

PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults.

Thus, PDMS are ideal for and found in many products, such as lubricants, insulation, adhesives, sealants, gaskets, car parts, medical devices, children toys, dishware, gloss enhancer and even Silly Putty

There are many misunderstandings and misstatements about silicones and their use in automotive appearance products. To help and clarify and provide a basis of scientific fact here are just a few examples:

Notes:
The text in Red was posted by a forum member.
The text in Back is from a professional chemist.


- “Dimethyl is derived from Aromatic hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates”
Not true… They are not from “Aromatic” hydrocarbons.


- “Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) is a basically inert, water based”
Not true.... PDMS is oil soluble.


- “The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester."
Not true... It is not a wax, not an ester, it is a unique chemistry based upon inorganic materials.


- “Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with Polydimethylsiloxane”
Not true…PDMS is non-reactive.


- “Dimethyl causes vinyl and most plastics to dry out and crack”
Not true… PDMS are odorless, colorless, water resistant, chemical resistant, oxidation resistant, stable at high temperature, and do not conduct electricity. PDMS are considered inert and impervious to the effects of aging, weather, sunlight, moisture, heat, cold, and some chemical assaults.


- “This type of silicone also causes ‘sling’,"
Not true… Anything placed on tires will have a tendency to sling due to centrifugal force.


- “Hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates can be further purified, re-distilled, reacted and combined with various other chemicals to produce a wide range of environmentally safe (water-based) and useful silicone products.”
Not true… Silicones are not hydrocarbon distillates


- “Silicone is an active ingredient in sun UV amplification."
Not true… Silicone does not change the effects of sunlight and its properties.


- “As a low quality silicone dressing evaporates away, the silicone oil is left behind, the sun then amplifies these residues, and the drying process is accelerated.”
Not true… PDMS that are used in tire products do not evaporate, nor do they change the effects of sunlight and it’s properties.

End of Meguiar's Statement



Note the goal here is not to embarrass or disparage anyone on our forum from posting information and specifically information on complex topics such as the chemistry of silicones, but to point out that it's easy to copy and paste information found on other websites or out of a book from the library, but as scientific sounding as the information may read, if the person posting the information is not a professional chemist, trained in the profession of chemistry, then anything they post should be questioned, and if questioned, the person posting it should be able to back it up with scientific facts or discontinue posting information they can't back up and don't generate themselves from their own learned knowledge on the subject.


It's important to remember that the goal of Meguiar's Online is to help people get the best results from their time, money and efforts. As such, the primary focus of our our discussions should be on the performance of the products, not the ingredients in our products and the chemistry behind them.

Meguiar's, just like every other company in the business of manufacturing car care chemicals is not going to tell everyone what's in our products and how they are made. Its ridiculous to even think that any car wax manufacture would do this.

It's okay to be interested as well as curious as to what's in a product and how it works, I can assure you I'm interested and curious in these things also. But at the end of the day, the big picture is the big picture, and that's choosing and using the right products for the job and the results you achieve.

That's what this forum is here for, that's our goal, helping you to choose and use the correct product in the right way and achieve the results you're looking for.

Mike Phillips
Sep 27th, 2005, 06:45 PM
***bump***

CarbonBlack
Jan 19th, 2008, 09:33 PM
bump

Junebug
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Great info.


[Edited for inappropriate comment; Thanks, Tim]

Don
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:36 AM
I have to at least give the guy credit for beng a Clint Eastwood fan.

Junebug
Sep 3rd, 2008, 08:51 AM
Only negative thing I've ever heard about silicone products was from a bodyman that complained that cars had to be carefully cleaned and prepped if there was any silicone products on the paint. And that was a few years back, but I assume still applies, so if you're getting your car painted - let the shop know.

Mike Phillips
Sep 3rd, 2008, 09:16 AM
but I assume still applies, so if you're getting your car painted - let the shop know.


That's a good idea if you know you're car has had ANY substance introduced to the surface that could cause surface adhesion problems.

Think about this, any substance that could make water bead up could cause paint to bead up if it's not removed.

You could have a car that you've never used anything on, nor the dealership where you bought it, but you're neighbor could be spraying some PAM on his barbecue grill and it could drift in the wind and land on your car's paint and cooking oil could cause a problem with surface adhesion if the panels of the car are not properly prepared.

So silicone gets a lot of attention but actually ANY substance that causes surface tension and can create surface adhesion problems will cause refinishing problems if the body shop doesn't properly prepare the car for painting.

Make sense?

:)

new2detailing
Sep 3rd, 2008, 12:34 PM
I appreciate the clarification about the uses and properties about silicone. It seems that silicone gets a bad rep from many other forums. However, it seems to be an essential ingredient to many products.

Mike Phillips
Sep 3rd, 2008, 02:18 PM
It seems that silicone gets a bad rep from many other forums.


There's a reason for that... :D

It's easy to simply pass along bad information and often times on other forums there's no leading authority to question bad information so it goes unchallenged and because it goes unchallenged a certain percentage of people figure it must be correct because no one challenged it.

Also, most other detailing discussion forums whether they are a dedicated detailing discussion forum or a segment of a theme-based discussion forum, (for example Corvetteforum.com is a theme-based discussion forum but they have a sub-forum for questions on detailing), it's a free-for-all environment which is a good thing, we offer a free-for-all environment but were also a HUGE supplier of non-silicone products as we've been making non-silicone products longer than most people posting to discussion forums have been alive.


As a manufacture of products for both fresh paint and cured paint we have expertise for ALL segments of the market while most of the products you read about on detailing discussion forums are made by companies that only cater to the OTC market, that is the retail market, (both online and traditional), and that means the only make products for "cured" paint" for example the paint on a new car while we make products that can be used on paint as soon as it's tack-free, fresh out of the paint booth.

Huge difference in product offering and the expertise that goes with it. :)





However, it seems to be an essential ingredient to many products.


Have posted so many times in the past but here goes again...

If Meguiar's chemist include ANY ingredient in ANY formula/product, it's for one of two reasons and usually both...


It's a benefit to the process
It's a benefit to the user
To help make it very clear to anyone that might not understand the above...

An example of #1 would be an abrasive is a key ingredient in a product intended to be used to remove below surface defects, therefore an abrasive in a compound is a benefit to the process.

An example of #2 would be be a silicone can be used to make a product easier to spread out and wipe off, that's a benefit to the user.

There are all kinds of silicones and most of the fear mongering over this single ingredient is by people that don't understand that body shops understand that before painting any car... they need to properly prepare the paint and that would include removing anything from the surface that could interfere with surface adhesion before the paint is sprayed.

Here's the text a question from our FAQ that addresses this topic in detail...



Are products that contain silicone bad for my car's finish? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=245622&posted=1#post245622)

No. In fact, automotive paints worldwide contain silicone as an ingredient to help the paint to spray and flow more smoothly.

Most of the concerns people have about silicones and products that contain silicones stem from the problems associated with them in the early 1950's. Back then, 40 and 50 years ago, if the surface wasn’t properly prepared, residual silicones on the surface or in the shop environment, could cause surface adhesion problems. The most common among them is a defect referred to Fish Eyes in the paint.

Fish Eyes are a small, circular craters that appear in the finish where the paint piles up in a circle surrounding a point on the surface that contains some type of contaminant that creates high surface tension, usually some type of wax, grease or silicone. The reason freshly sprayed paint does this is because contaminants like wax and silicone tend to create high surface tension and do not allow the freshly applied paint to stick or adhere properly. Instead of laying down flat over the top of these contaminants, the paint moves away from these contaminants, forming a ring around them that has the visual appearance of what is historically described as a "fish eye".

Knowledge of chemistry, as well as most other technologies have evolved and grown substantially since the 1950's (just look at modern cars and personal computers as two very visible, common examples of how technology has progressed). The problems painters encountered 50 years ago are more easily addressed with today's modern paint prepping chemicals, shop environments, paint additives, and most importantly, education. Back in the 1950's, there were no formal training programs available for young men and women entering the automotive repair industry. Most of the time, a person would start out at the bottom, sweeping and cleaning up, and slowly move up the ladder through knowledge gained by on-the-job training. Today there are hundreds of certified schools that specialize in formal education for the automotive industry. This includes paint manufacturers, who provide in-depth training for anyone who uses their paint systems.

Most professionals in the refinishing industry understand that a majority of the paintwork they do, day-in and day-out, is on cars that have been waxed using products that contain both wax and silicone.

Professionals in the body shop industry always perform the necessary preparation work required to insure that "fish eyes" are not a problem. This includes using special degreasers, wax and silicone removers that effectively remove these substances from the surface or chemically alter their molecular structure in such a way to insure they pose no problems. If there is ever any question or doubt about the surface to which new paint is going to be applied, painters will include a Fish Eye Eliminator into the paint, which insures a finish free from fish eyes. Interestingly enough, Fish Eye Eliminator is typically a special silicone additive.

There are many kinds of silicones available for use in car care products, the one thing all silicones have in common is they are completely inert. This means they do not react in either a negative or a positive manner with any substance they come into contact with, including your car's paint.


Silicones are primarily used to modify or enhance a specific characteristic of another ingredient in a Meguiar's formula. If the silicones Meguiar's relies on didn't offer some type of positive benefit to the product, or the end-user and the results they are trying to achieve, Meguiar's wouldn't include them in their formulas.

For example: The use of some types of silicone in a formula acts to make the product easier to both spread and wipe-off, thus reducing the effort required to apply and remove the product, which then helps to reduce the potential for application or wipe-off inflicted scratches. That’s a benefit to you.

Meguiar's has been the leader in creating paintable, body shop safe products because of our history and continuing leadership in creating state-of-the-art formulas for use by new car manufacturers as well as the collision repair and custom painting industries. Because of our expertise in creating wax and silicone-free products for fresh paint environments, you will find many of our paint cleaners and polishes are paintable and body shop safe.


Because Meguiar's is a major supplier to the automotive finishing industry, both to OEM (factory level) and the re-finishing industry (collision repair, body shops and custom paint shops), Meguiar's can offer you a complete selection of paintable products including at least one polish that contains a paintable polymer for increased protection.

The fear and confusion surrounding this single ingredient, silicone, is an ongoing problem people run into when they get caught up in the hype and misinformation spread from person to person, generation to generation and now-a-days, on the Internet, which exaggerates the problems surrounding the use of silicones in car care products.

There are some sources that even go so far to say that silicones are harmful to paint. This is not only dishonest; it calls into question the credibility of that resource and any and all claims they make. Silicone is inert. It cannot harm paint, let alone anything else it is formulated into, or sitting on top of, especially in the form of a coating of wax.



As discussion forums continue to evolve, the important factor that will insure you can take the information you get from one is whether or not it helps you to be successful when you work on your car in the garage. And if something goes wrong... someone to come back to that's held accountable for the information on the forum.

We take great pride in that the how-to information and the products that accompany this how-to information on this forum have a history of helping our members and yes our 'lurkers' of dong just that.

We encourage everyone to post their questions to as many forums as they deem worthy and then everyone can decide for themselves who to trust.

The Internet in general and discussion forums in specific are the ultimate equalizers because you the customer can talk back....
(unless your a lurker) :D

:xyxthumbs

Michael Stoops
Sep 3rd, 2008, 02:33 PM
I entered into a little discussion on another car forum about both silicones and petroleum distillates, and the amount of disinformation and gross lack of knowledge was astounding. One poster went so far as to say he only uses brand "X" because their interior vinyl and rubber protectant contained no silicones or petroleum distillates at all - he would never let those ingredients anywhere near his car because they are the worst thing one could possibly use on those surfaces. Swore up and down that 5 years of regular use with brand "X" and he never had a problem.

In this case brand "X" is a highly respected boutique product and I thought his choice in product was a very reasonable one. But I highly doubted his claim that it was silicone and petroleum distillate free - so I requested an MSDS sheet for the product. Yep, it's loaded with silicone. Not a bad thing obviously as that one particular poster has been using the stuff regularly for 5 years without a hint of trouble. But he was terribly misinformed not only about silicones in general but about the very same "high end" product he was using.

Like Mike Phillips said, it's easy to pass along bad information.

Mike Phillips
Sep 3rd, 2008, 02:54 PM
It's funny when someone says,

"I won't use a product with petroleum distillates on my car's paint"

Modern car paints include petroleum distillates, in fact some of the base ingredients that make up the actual resin are either derived from petroleum crude oil or liquid petroleum gas, (LPG), thus what they're saying is...

"I won't use petroleum distillates on my petroleum distillate"

Kind of funny...

And of course there's always this example of how dangerous petroleum distillates can be...

Chap-Stick, a product you apply to your lips contains 44% Petrolatums

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2chapstick-med.jpg


See these threads also on petroleum distillates...

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11116
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19470
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19664
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26020


And here's an article on silcones...
The Role Silicone Plays in Car Care Products (http://www.autopia.org/forum/detailing-articles-videos/80590-role-silicone-plays-car-care-products.html)

At some point... you just have to put your trust in the name on the bottle... our bottle or some other companies bottle...

Who you going to trust?

:xyxthumbs

H.E.D
Sep 3rd, 2008, 03:55 PM
i had a bad experience with meguiars leather cleaner and conditioner. i applied it to a mercedez black leather interior and it seemed that the silicone in it hazed the leather, luckily i only did one seat and quickly removed it with apc and hot water.

miahjohn
Sep 3rd, 2008, 06:32 PM
Great write up mike. so....i trust that all the silicone products meguiars makes for my tires are safe and won't dry them out? Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

ps will be buying meguiars hyper dressing soon!

Holden_Caulfield04
Sep 3rd, 2008, 06:50 PM
Great write up mike. so....i trust that all the silicone products meguiars makes for my tires are safe and won't dry them out? Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

ps will be buying meguiars hyper dressing soon!

The brown colour is an effect known as 'browning' and is usually a symptom of a tire that hasn't been cleaned thoroughly. Get in there with a brush and scrub. That's my best advice.

Mike Phillips
Sep 4th, 2008, 07:10 AM
Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?


See page 2 of this thread...

Will some tire cleaner/foams/dressings dry rot your tires? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26820)

:xyxthumbs

Mike Pennington
Sep 4th, 2008, 08:03 AM
i had a bad experience with meguiars leather cleaner and conditioner. i applied it to a mercedez black leather interior and it seemed that the silicone in it hazed the leather, luckily i only did one seat and quickly removed it with apc and hot water.

Just to ensure this thread / post does not go in the wrong direction...

To blame "silicone" is a pretty powerful statement, see all above posts :D

A better way to for all to receive your post is....you had undesirable results with one of our leather products, so you removed it and corrected it with apc & hot water.

We know there are times when a product may not work as expected, and we also know we will not satisfy everyone all the time, but our goal on MOL is to make sure good information is spread.

:xyxthumbs

Mike

Mike Pennington
Sep 4th, 2008, 08:09 AM
Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

The brown color is not being left behind by the tire dressing, that is actually antiozonants being released from the tire by design.

In the tire industry it is referred to as "blooming".

Mike

Michael Stoops
Sep 4th, 2008, 09:28 AM
"Blooming" seems to be more noticeable on some brands of tires than others and can also be effected by amount of exposure to harsh sun and/or amount of use. Recently with my own vehicles I had one with an extremely high degree of "blooming" or "browning" of the sidewalls. All the cars had different a different brand of tire: Michelin, Falken, BFGoodrich and Continental. All tires were cleaned the same way (APC diluted 10:1) and treated with the exact same tire dressing (Hot Shine Tire Coating). Only the Michelin tires exhibited the browning of the sidewalls - a dead giveaway that the tire dressing was not the cause.

miahjohn
Sep 4th, 2008, 08:51 PM
The brown color is not being left behind by the tire dressing, that is actually antiozonants being released from the tire by design.

In the tire industry it is referred to as "blooming".

Mike

So what does this mean? probably not a good thing? what does one do to stop the blooming?

miahjohn
Sep 4th, 2008, 09:02 PM
ok just read pg 2. makes sense..you gotta clean your tires well! thats another problem....hard to find a cleaner to clean that old tire shine off completely without the soap getting flat and old tire shine smearing and spreading all over. Although, I have yet to try any of the meguiars detail line cleaners.