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silence
Sep 12th, 2005, 03:39 AM
Question about #80 - Does it contain heavy fillers? (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8331)


Does it contain heavy fillers?

Will it cover up swirls and scratches more than it will remove them?

Blr123
Sep 12th, 2005, 05:01 AM
Hey there,

No it's mild fillers in #80.

Bryan

Mike Phillips
Sep 12th, 2005, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by silence
Does it contain heavy fillers? Will it cover up swirls and scratches more than it will remove them?

How do you define the word, fillers ?


Do a search using the word fillers and select Search Titles Only in the search preference option.


The word, fillers is a word used by the uniformed on other forums. Don't let yourself get trapped into that mindset. Remember there's lot of self-proclaimed guru's out there that simply copy and paste what they read and in essence act like parrots repeating information they never generated. The problem with this is that some of the information is good, while some of it is bad.

Aurora40
Sep 12th, 2005, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by silence
Does it contain heavy fillers? Will it cover up swirls and scratches more than it will remove them?

Heheh, I don't know what heavy vs light would be. #80 leaves a finish behind like a glaze would, though, so it will hide swirls and scratches to a degree.

But #80 is an abrasive polish and will also correct defects to a degree. As to whether it will fill more than remove, that all depends on what you are trying to do and how you are using it. If you use it on big deep scratches, it probably won't remove much of anything. If you use it on light swirls and spiderwebs, it will probably remove all of it.

If you want to check the finish as you polish, you simply need to wipe the surface down with something like 50/50 rubbing alcohol.

What is it you are trying to accomplish with it?

As an aside, I like #80. It's easy to use, leaves a nice finish, and isn't a heavy cut.

Mike Phillips
Sep 12th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Just to piggyback on what Aurora40 posted, correctly used, our cleaner/polishes like the M80 Speed Glaze remove swirls and scratches, they don't merely fill them in. Part of using a Meguiar's cleaner/polish correctly is choosing the correct product for the job, the other part is to work the product long enough to ensure all of the diminishing abrasives have been broken down.

I purposefully instilled swirls into the hood of our black Pilot and then using only M80 Speed Glaze with our W-8006 foam polishing pad on our G100 dual action polisher I machine cleaned the swirls out of the paint.

I then wiped the hood down with All Purpose Plus Cleaner followed by a strong solution of our Glass Cleaner in the Professional Line, followed by washing the hood with a detergent dish washing soap and then rinsed with water.

I think most people would agree that the above cleaning process will have successfully removed anything left on the finish by the M80 Speed Glaze.

I then moved the Pilot into the driveway in such a was as to capture the sun reflecting off the hood.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2NoFillers1cropped.jpg

The swirls were completely removed, not filled in. The finish actually looked great, as though it had been waxed, yet it had just been tortured with two harsh chemicals and a detergent wash. I'm always impressed at the results that can be achieved with M80 Speed Glaze. When applied correctly, it leaves the finish clear, glassy and perfect for applying a Meguiar's wax.

Below is the deck lid off of the 73 Challenger built by Chip Foose on Overhaulin, it was filled with swirls and scratches. We machine cleaned it using nothing but M80 Speed Glaze with our W-8006 foam polishing pad. We applied the M80 Speed Glaze twice to completely remove all swirls and scratches...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2OverhaulinwithM80.jpg


One pass with M80 Speed Glaze on the Panic Parrot
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2PPFrontShot1.jpg

One very well worked-in pass of M80 Speed Glaze on this single stage lacquer paint on a 1960 Tuxedo Black Corvette with no wax applied yet.

Before Side
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteSbyS05s.jpg

After Side
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteSbyS04s.jpg

Finished off with two coats of NXT Tech Wax Liquid Applied by Machine

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteAfter01.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteAfter03.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteAfter05.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteAfter04.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteAfter06.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/260VetteAfter14.jpg

Lncanney
Sep 12th, 2005, 01:32 PM
Mike, you ARE crazy!


I purposefully instilled swirls into the hood


I then wiped the hood down with All Purpose Plus Cleaner followed by a strong solution of our Glass Cleaner in the Professional Line, followed by washing the hood with a detergent dish washing soap and then rinsed with water.

Mike Phillips
Sep 12th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Lncanney
Mike, you ARE crazy!

Shhh... don't tell Lynn....


I did it to prove a point because of all the keyboard commandos talking about fillers on all the other forums....

silence
Sep 13th, 2005, 03:49 AM
Well the reason I asked is i came across somebody who said they used #80 and when they were done they brought the car into the sunlight and wiped it down and found they it had only covered the scratches I don't know any specifics on what they did. so I wanted to ask you about the fillers.

OctaneGuy
Sep 13th, 2005, 05:47 AM
Let me get this straight. Your friend applied M80, let it dry, brought it out into the sun, then wiped it clean??? Or are you saying he used M80, buffed it multiple times, then brought it out, and wiped it again?

I can't possibly see how M80 would leave any residue behind to fill anything if it's been properly used.

Remember, if you're buffing M80, it'll go clear--if it's still green/beige/creamy, then well...I can see the misunderstanding!

Did he use a PC or a rotary???

Tell us more about how the product was used.






Originally posted by silence
Well the reason I asked is i came across somebody who said they used #80 and when they were done they brought the car into the sunlight and wiped it down and found they it had only covered the scratches I don't know any specifics on what they did. so I wanted to ask you about the fillers.

silence
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:06 AM
I don't know how wellhe used the product or the exact steps he did. I don't know him. I didn't think #80 had fillers, so I thought I would ask and hopefully this thread will answer this question down the road if anyone is thinking of asking.

oc detailer
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:15 AM
so #80 should be rubbed in till its clear/gone? or rubbed in till theres barely anything to wipe away?

Mike Phillips
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by silence
I don't know how wellhe used the product or the exact steps he did. I don't know him. I didn't think #80 had fillers, so I thought I would ask and hopefully this thread will answer this question down the road if anyone is thinking of asking.

Hi silence,

I think it was a good idea that you posted this question as I see all the talk on other forums about fillers. This is also why I posted this on page 1


Originally posted by Mike Phillips
The word, fillers is a word used by the uniformed on other forums. Don't let yourself get trapped into that mindset. Remember there's lot of self-proclaimed guru's out there that simply copy and paste what they read and in essence act like parrots repeating information they never generated. The problem with this is that some of the information is good, while some of it is bad.


And this is why I posted the below thoughts on this thread,

Help me please! - Swirls on my black RSX! (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=62459)

When the person who started the thread wrote this,


Originally posted by ng-rsx
I've been reading on forums on how to get rid of swirls, listening to other people's opinions etc...


Interesting...

This is what discussion forums are evolving into...

Whose opinions are right...

There are plenty of opinions out there, (that's for sure), and plenty of keyboard commandos and self-appointed gurus waxing-on at length on this or that and one thing or another...

Luckily time has a way of sorting everything out...


If you want to remove swirls or scratches by hand out of your car's clear coat finish then read the links supplied above and this thread I've included below and you will have a pretty good handle on what to do...

What it Means to Remove a Scratch (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7228)



Point being is everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make them right.

OctaneGuy
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:23 AM
Nope not gone---but if you buff only while it's still creamy, atleast with the G100, you aren't really maximizing the capabilities of M80--but you don't want to go so far as to a dry buff where all the M80 has broken down and has turned to powder.

I do this with DACP M83--I'm not 100% sure, and will be glad to be corrected here--that M80 works in a similar fashion.

Lately I've been using M80 with my rotary.

Richard


Originally posted by oc detailer
so #80 should be rubbed in till its clear/gone? or rubbed in till theres barely anything to wipe away?

Mike Phillips
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:34 AM
Besides product selection and other factors such as paint hardness and the depth of the defects you're trying to remove, two more factors that have a very important direct effect as to whether or not a product performs appropriately are the knowledge level and skill level of the person doing the work.

You can give two people the same products and tools, divide the panel of a car in half, letting each one work on one half of the panel and when they both are finished get two results, one person producing flawless results, the other mediocre results...

The difference was in the persons skills and abilities... just remember that when you're on other forums reading opinions... We all start out as beginners, so it's completely normal to not start right out of the shoot getting professional results especially when a person is using products formulated for Professionals, (M80 Speed Glaze is formulated for use by Professionals in the Collision Repair Industry, not for consumers and enthusiasts), this means there is an expectation of a higher degree of skill and knowledge in order to get good results.

So we're not knocking anyone that didn't get the results they hoped for and instead of looking inward at themselves they looked outward and put the blame on the product, we're just saying to remember to consider the source.


Just to recapp... from the first page,

Just to piggyback on what Aurora40 posted, correctly used, our cleaner/polishes like the M80 Speed Glaze remove swirls and scratches, they don't merely fill them in. Part of using a Meguiar's cleaner/polish correctly is choosing the correct product for the job, the other part is to work the product long enough to ensure all of the diminishing abrasives have been broken down.

I purposefully instilled swirls into the hood of our black Pilot and then using only M80 Speed Glaze with our W-8006 foam polishing pad on our G100 dual action polisher I machine cleaned the swirls out of the paint.

I then wiped the hood down with All Purpose Plus Cleaner followed by a strong solution of our Glass Cleaner in the Professional Line, followed by washing the hood with a detergent dish washing soap and then rinsed with water.

I think most people would agree that the above cleaning process will have successfully removed anything left on the finish by the M80 Speed Glaze.

I then moved the Pilot into the driveway in such a was as to capture the sun reflecting off the hood.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2NoFillers1cropped.jpg

The swirls were completely removed, not filled in. The finish actually looked great, as though it had been waxed, yet it had just been tortured with two harsh chemicals and a detergent wash. I'm always impressed at the results that can be achieved with M80 Speed Glaze. When applied correctly, it leaves the finish clear, glassy and perfect for applying a Meguiar's wax.

Accumulator
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:43 AM
The whole "fillers and hiding" thing involving #80 sure gets a lot of bandwidth! Guess I'll toss in my observations too.

Note: I like #80, use #80, recommend #80. I have no connection with Meguiar's and I don't care if people do/don't use this product or anything else ;) The following $0.02 is based on first-hand experience on numerous vehicles.

See how it compares to what Mike and Aurora40 posted ;)

The diminishing abrasives do mechanically remove marring. Period. But they are pretty mild and might require a few applications to do the job. To completely break them down it appears that you should work the #80 until it changes from its original green/brown color to a basically clear appearance. I have never worked it until dry for fear of instilling micromarring and because I see no reason to do so.

The fresh-paint-safe polymers and/or whatever else #80 leaves behind will conceal a little light marring. This marring could often have been removed if the #80 was used a few more times, this gets back to the mildness of the diminishing abrasives. I know that this concealing occurs because I have used #80 until a surface appeared marring-free (FWIW, this was on very hard clear and I only used the #80 for 2-3 "passes" with a D/A). When I used a solvent to clean the panels in question, I found that light marring remained despite the work I did with the #80. This was not visible before wiping and was not the result of the wiping so I have no other explanation besides the assumption that the #80 somehow concealed it.

Does this "concealing" matter? Only if you want it to. The panels looked fine with the remaining marring "hidden". The panels would look fine if you kept using #80 until all the marring was physically gone. Seems like a win/win situation to me, and the only time I consider this "concealing" is if I'll be following #80 with something that "cleans" the panels- this might uncover something that I thought was gone. No biggie, just a matter of which products work the way I want when used together. I go straight from #80 to my LSP and everything looks fine.

Blr123
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:06 AM
So you work #80 until clear then wipe off with a MF cloth then apply sealer/wax etc yeah?

Bryan

OctaneGuy
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:19 AM
Yep! Likely you'll do another pass or two with M80 after wiping it down.


Originally posted by Blr123
So you work #80 until clear then wipe off with a MF cloth then apply sealer/wax etc yeah?

Bryan

Blr123
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Thanks for that :xyxthumbs

Bryan

Mike Phillips
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:27 AM
M80 offers a lot of play time, this is one of the reasons its so safe and practically Bubba-Proof. It's important to work any product with diminishing abrasives until the abrasives have completely broken down, but not until you have buffed until the product has become dry on the surface. If you buff to a dry buff, you have lost lubricity on the surface and at that point, the potential for micro-scratching or marring the finish has been reached.

Polishing paint is always about reducing the potential to instill scratches

The next question someone usually asks about now is,

"How long is long enough?"

The best answer is "Learn through hands-on experience"

Hope this helps...

silence
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:47 AM
This thread should be made a sticky

05PhillyStang
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips


Polishing paint is always about [b]reducing the potential to instill scratches



Can you please clarify and/or elaborate on that statement. I'm not quite sure I understand how polishing reduces the POTENTIAL to instill scratches

Mike Phillips
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by 05PhillyStang
Can you please clarify and/or elaborate on that statement. I'm not quite sure I understand how polishing reduces the POTENTIAL to instill scratches

Sure...

It's your job to reduce the potential to instill a swirl or scratch when working on your car's paint by choosing the right product, the right applicator and using good technique.

For example,

Using a Grit Guard reduces the potential for instilling scratches while washing your car.


Now does it make sense?

Mike Phillips
Sep 13th, 2005, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by silence
This thread should be made a sticky

I just moved it into Hot Topics II

:) :) :)

05PhillyStang
Sep 13th, 2005, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Sure...

It's your job to reduce the potential to instill a swirl or scratch when working on your car's paint by choosing the right product, the right applicator and using good technique.

For example,

Using a Grit Guard reduces the potential for instilling scratches while washing your car.


Now does it make sense?

Gotcha. I was reading too deep into the statement. I looked it as if you were saying, "by polishing your car, you reduce the risk of scratches." As if the polish is protecting the finish from scratches. Thanks for the clarification and I now agree 100% with your statement.

It reminds of the guys who say that using a grit guard or thoroughly rinsing the wash mitt before re-dipping into the soap bucket is pointless then complain that the mitt scratched their finish.

k94max
Sep 13th, 2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips

The next question someone usually asks about now is,

"How long is long enough?"

The best answer is "Learn through hands-on experience"


Well, I reckon that answers my question....

ebpcivicsi
Sep 13th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Here is just one of the many examples that I have of #80 in action. I love it and buy it by the gallon.

Whether it fills or not, I don't know. Honestly, i don't really care either, it works I know that.

Before:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/ebpcivicsi/tn_120_2076.jpg

After:
Only on eapplication od M80 with the PC and meguiars polishing pad, no wax. BTW, this car still had drive-out tags on it, it was delivered this way. :rolleyes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/ebpcivicsi/tn_120_2091.jpg

Finished product.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/ebpcivicsi/tn_120_2087.jpg

Accumulator
Sep 14th, 2005, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by 05PhillyStang
I'm not quite sure I understand how polishing reduces the POTENTIAL to instill scratches

Adding to what Mike posted:

Any time you touch paint there's a potential for instilling scratches, just the nature of the beast. Polishing *correctly* reduces the potential. When people polish incorrectly (too long, so the product dries out or not long enough, so the abrasives don't break down) the potential is increased.

Mike- a Q about the "official stance" on working #80:

Do you/Meguiar's consider it necessary/proper to work it until it "clears out"? That's what I learned to do through experience (soft lacquer) but I always wonder if I really *need* to work it that long to break it down :confused:

Mike Phillips
Sep 14th, 2005, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by Accumulator
Mike- a Q about the "official stance" on working #80:

Do you/Meguiar's consider it necessary/proper to work it until it "clears out"? That's what I learned to do through experience (soft lacquer) but I always wonder if I really *need* to work it that long to break it down :confused:

I'll have to check with Mike Pennington on Meguiar's official stance on whether to work M80 until it goes clear or not. Once you spread your product out it's already kind of translucent do determining when it goes more clear, or translucent is kind of difficult.

Here are my thoughts however...

M80 is a fairly wet product, this gives you and me a lot of play time, what this means is while it's important to work the product until the abrasives completely break down, you can't really buff too long with the product as long as you don't buff to a dry buff.

I've been told one of the unique characteristics about the diminishing abrasives used in the M80 formula is that they break down quickly, this means they start out aggressive, but then quickly break down and polish-out.

This window of abrading time is short compared to how long you can buff the product until you reach the point where you've lost lubricity, (went to a dry buff), thus the product is Bubba-Proof.

The question people always have, especially when just starting out, is...

"How long do I buff the product?"

While the best answer is let your experience be your guide, the problem is people new to machine polishing don't have any experience to guide them, so they want a pat answer.

What we show in our Saturday detailing classes is to polish 2-3 different directions, making 2-3 passes in each direction and monitor the product on the surface to make sure you don't go to a dry buff.

Another thing we show is that the film you're leaving behind after making a pass with the polisher should always be wet/moist, never dry or in a worst case scenario... missing as in you have not only reached a dry buff, but you are not leaving any dry powder or residue behind at all.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

What we teach in our Saturday

Accumulator
Sep 14th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
This window of abrading time is short compared to how long you can buff the product until you reach the point where you've lost lubricity, (went to a dry buff), thus the product is Bubba-Proof.

The question people always have, especially when just starting out, is...

"How long do I buff the product?"

...they want a pat answer...



Yeah, I suspect I'm working the #80 longer than I really need to (not a biggie, but still...) and, truth be told :o I don't always work it that long myself. But the "until clear but not longer" always seems like an answer that won't get people into trouble ;)

I'll be interested to hear what Mike Pennington has to say.

gtp
Sep 14th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Hey Mike -

Some pics of when to stop buffing in the M80 and start wiping would be really helpful here :db: Its hard to tell when to keep buffing or stop buffing.

zey
Sep 18th, 2005, 08:01 AM
One of the most important aspects when it comes to polishing is the surface temperature of the panel which you're working on. If you have a warm panel, chances are, your product will dry up very quickly and you'll achieve dry buff in a short time. This is even more severe when you use it with a rotary machine. You'll get alot more holograms (with the same product, pad, speed and buff time) on warmer panels. Nowadays I would prefer to use M80 with rotary to remove deeper scratch which DA can't remove at all instead straight using M83 with rotary. One of the reasons being I haven't possessed good rotary buffing skill, and to stress on, M80 provides longer play time. After that, I will apply M80 again using DA. If it's on my black car, I'll definitely apply M82 using DA to produce the clearest finish before applying a layer of M21. At the moment, this is what it works for me. I've seen professional detailers applying M83 with rotary and left the finish close to swirl-free.

poyo
Jul 3rd, 2006, 11:00 PM
Just to re-update this thread, have Mike Pennington @ MG have a say on this matter ( either to keep buffing M80 until it clears OR until it leaves a slight hazy finish ) bfr final wipe with a MF?

Justin Murphy
Jul 4th, 2006, 05:55 AM
So when should one use #9 instead of #80?
I know they are different and then should be used at different time......right?

Accumulator
Jul 4th, 2006, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by justin30513
So when should one use #9 instead of #80?
I know they are different and then should be used at different time......right?

The short answer is that #9 is *much* milder than #80 and won't effect as much mechanical/abrasive correction.

Mike Phillips
Aug 2nd, 2006, 08:23 AM
Here's a recent thread where one of our forum members has taken the time to document that when used correctly, Meguiar's M80 Speed Glaze as well as all of our other compounds, paint cleaners, and cleaner/polishes, Remove swirls, not merely fill them in as the unifomredon other detailing discussion forums would have you believe.


So I got sick of everybody saying 80 has lots of "fillers" LOTS OF PICS INSIDE (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14848)

PaBlkBrd
Aug 2nd, 2006, 12:25 PM
I have used 80 on my Tbird since it was new and would not use any thing else befor a LSP........Great Stuff! :bow

Mike Phillips
Feb 13th, 2009, 10:30 AM
:bump2

rusty bumper
Feb 13th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Well, if it contains fillers, then I haven't seen any animal by-products listed on the bottle yet. :D

Great product though.