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Bwiser
Nov 11th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Hello Everyone!

I have been thinking of buying a new polisher, that would replace my Turtle wax/polisher (oribital) that seems to do nothing with new products anymore. With all these new improvements and products in the detailing business, which product would be a better choice in the long run? PC 7424, circular polisher or cyclone? (Meguiar's professional products will be used with it)

The problem is I have heard about the war stories on how circular polishers can burn the paint without proper care, but on the other hand the PC dual action polisher and oribital wax/polishers are too weak and safe to remove all scratches and swirls. I heard of the cyclone, but have not heard too much about the performance. Thanks for your help!

Mike Phillips
Nov 11th, 2005, 01:11 PM
Hi Bwiser,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online! :wavey

I'll ask Accumulator and Spoildman to chime in on this thread with their thoughts and experience as they have more than I do with this tool.

I will endeavor to use it on a clear coated car in horrific condition next week in order to determine it's strengths and weaknesses. Until then let's hear from these other two gentlemen as they both have excellent reputations on this forum as well as others for posting credible first hand information and real-world experience.

BondoKing
Nov 11th, 2005, 01:20 PM
I am interested to hear about the cyclone as well

Matthew

SpoiledMan
Nov 11th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Well I'm flattered.;)

While I do have a rotary, PC and Cyclo, I have only had my Cyclo for a couple months. That said, my PC has been in the case for that same couple months.

The Cyclo is a very smooth machine that cuts/polishes faster than a PC. I equate it to have a PC with two 4 inch pads as the PC cuts/polishes faster with the smaller pads than it does with the larger ones. The Cyclo does a better job of breaking down abrasives than the PC and in some cases makes the product useless in the case of Klasse AIO as it gums up. I have heard of others having issues with other products as well.

The PC will accomplish the same chores as the Cyclo but it takes longer. I have been planning to give it a go but pads are the issue. I don't have any Meguiar's 4" pads (HINT) to compare directly with the Cyclo and PC to time how long it takes to correct the same amount of area using the same pads and polishes.

I personally like the Cyclo better because of the smoothness, balance and what I perceive as it's better ability. That said, I've been spending so much time with my rotary lately that there isn't much that I can't do with it.:)

the other pc
Nov 11th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Just so everybody's clear on what we're talking about here:.

The "PC" (a.k.a. Meguiar's G-100 and Porter-Cable's 7424/7335/7336) is a dual-action polisher (a type of orbital) typically used with 6.5" pads
http://www.meguiars.com/estore/products/product_G100A.jpg

The Cyclo is a dual-action polisher with dual 4" pads.
http://www.cyclotoolmakers.com/WSpictures/80-010_lr.jpg

And the "circular" or rotary polisher is different from orbital/dual-action polishers in that the pad is forced to rotate. They commonly use pads anywhere from 3" to 9" (Meguiar's 6.5" and 8" pads, for example). (the popular Makita 9227 is shown here)
http://www.toolmax.nl/images/MA9227CB.jpg

Orbital vs. DA vs. Rotary action:
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2160orbit_vs_DA_vs_rotary.jpg


PC.



edit: added DA diag.

RamAirV1
Nov 11th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by SpoiledMan
Well I'm flattered.;)

While I do have a rotary, PC and Cyclo, I have only had my Cyclo for a couple months. That said, my PC has been in the case for that same couple months.

The Cyclo is a very smooth machine that cuts/polishes faster than a PC. I equate it to have a PC with two 4 inch pads as the PC cuts/polishes faster with the smaller pads than it does with the larger ones. The Cyclo does a better job of breaking down abrasives than the PC and in some cases makes the product useless in the case of Klasse AIO as it gums up. I have heard of others having issues with other products as well.

The PC will accomplish the same chores as the Cyclo but it takes longer. I have been planning to give it a go but pads are the issue. I don't have any Meguiar's 4" pads (HINT) to compare directly with the Cyclo and PC to time how long it takes to correct the same amount of area using the same pads and polishes.

I personally like the Cyclo better because of the smoothness, balance and what I perceive as it's better ability. That said, I've been spending so much time with my rotary lately that there isn't much that I can't do with it.:)

Excellent point about the 4" pads! I bought some 4" pads from CMA to try with the PC and #83. It is a great combination. It even generates a little bit of heat, so it is definitely moving some paint. The only problem is that the 4" pads are not Meguairs quality. They only lasted for one use and they were done. And no I didn't run the PC wide open (6.0) like I have been known to do.

The 4" pads were not anywhere near the quality of the Meguairs pads. I also wish Meguiars would offer a 4" polishing pads (less subtle hint). Maybe that would be a good 2007 accessory. Whenever I need a little extra "oomph" to my swirl remover, I run the PC at 6.0 with a yellow polishing pad. It definitely helps, and I have never damaged a Meguiars pad when doing so.

RamAirV1

Accumulator
Nov 11th, 2005, 03:44 PM
As I'm a little late to this party, I don't know how much I can add to what Spoiledman already posted. But I always enjoy going on (and on :o ) about the Cyclo. So...long-winded post follows:

I've used the Cyclo for about 20 years. It's indestructible, even in an abusive, commmercial environment. It's a much higher grade tool than the PC with old-time build quality. My older PC has needed rebuilt once and the newer one will need it soon. Note that this is after only "hobbiest" use, no commercial use.

The Cyclo was designed as a polisher for vehicles (airplanes and aluminum travel trailers) and has been around since forever. The PC was designed as a sander and has only recently been adapted to polishing vehicles with (velcro backed) foam pads. These foam pads weigh much more than the single sheet of sandpaper that the PC was designed to use, so the PC can run into the limits of its abilities rather quickly (more on this later).

I got the PC after reading/hearing how great it is, and generally I find the it to be a disappointment. It does have some uses for me due to its variable speed (the Cyclo is a fixed speed machine), which allows its use with products that the Cyclo "flashes" too fast (as SpoiledMan noted with the AIO).

I'm afraid I don't have that much experience using the Cyclo with Meguiar's products as I generally use different products for abrasive polishing. The Cyclo does work fine with #80. I especially like it for applying (and removing, using suede-style MF bonnets) the discontinued #16 wax. I put it on with one Cyclo and buff it off with a second one- I actually find it so much fun that I rewax long before it's necessary. For me, the Cyclo is *that* enjoyable to use.

In comparison, I do not enjoy using the PC at all. I find it to be less than ergonomically designed, especially the switch placement. I don't like its vibration either.

Yes, the Cyclo is more powerful than the PC. If you really lean on the PC you can make it bog down, and then it merely "jiggles" (and little work gets done). You can even grab the pad while the PC is on- no problem. The Cyclo will *not* bog down under pressure and if you grab the pads on *that* machine while it's running it'll hurt, so don't try it.

With the 4" pads the PC can do almost the same work as the Cyclo. So I don't know just how significant the difference in ability really is if you're willing to use 4" pads with the PC.

When you need a rotary, you need a rotary. The Cyclo is no rotary (which is good and bad, I suppose).

There are some body contours that you simply can't do with the Cyclo- it doesn't fit because the pads don't stick out very far beyond the head of the machine. My XJS has a few of these and that was one thing I did like about the PC when I first got it. I don't know how much of an issue this is with other vehicles, for me it only comes up with the XJS.

Most people who've tried both the PC and the Cyclo under my tutelage preferred the Cyclo by a wide margin. Only *one* person, out of quite a few, preferred the PC and he's sorta, uhm, different ;) I've had newbies, from teens to the elderly, up to speed with the Cyclo in a matter of minutes. Same with the PC, so the learning curves are about the same but there seems to be much more fumbling with the PC (vs. almost none with the Cyclo). One thing I have noticed is that you can practice "rotary motions" with the Cyclo and they transfer over to the real rotary very well. It just handles sorta like a rotary for me and for some others I know. I did not find similar knowledge transfer with the PC.

Despite its greater weight, I find the Cyclo very easy to use even with one hand. Easier than the PC for me.

The available carpet brushes for the Cyclo work great. I can't imagine the ones for the PC working as well (due to the bogging/jiggling issue), but I haven't tried them so that's a guess.

With MF bonnets, I find the Cyclo gets product off better than the PC does. Both work for this, but the Cyclo works much better for me.

Mike has stated that he can't imagine a situation where he'd say "the only tool for this job is the Cyclo". With the possible exception of the carpet brushes, I tend to agree. I find situations where the only tool for the job is a rotary. I also find jobs where the only applicable tool is the PC. But whenever I have a job that I *can* do with the Cyclo, I consider myself lucky and I enjoy every minute of it. And there aren't all *that* many jobs that I can't/don't use it on.

The Cyclo/PC choice comes down to a) do you need the variable speed, b) do you mind the extra cost of the Cyclo, c) do you need the Cyclo's greater durability and slightly greater ability, d) do you nave weird panel contours to consider, and e) which one do you prefer using.

I myself wouldn't be without *any* of the polishers- the rotary, the Cyclo, or the PC. It's like having a full set of wrenches or screwdrivers. But if I could have only one, I'd probably stick with the Cyclo. In fact, it's the only polisher I did have for many years.

Pete-FWA
Nov 11th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Accumulator and SpoiledMan, thank you both for your honest assessments of the aforementioned tools. Having never used a Cyclo, I've been curious.

In fact, I've never even used an electric DA until earlier this week. A friend of mine bought a PC to use for paint prepping a vehicle in his garage. All my DA's are pneumatic and have served my needs for final polishing and wax application. I just attributed the longer finishing time as a cost of getting such swirl-free results. Perhaps there is an alternative tool I can add to the box.

Mike Phillips
Nov 12th, 2005, 01:42 AM
Thanks Spoildman and Accumulator of chiming in!

Off to teach a class, Toyotoa Prius today...

Mosca
Nov 12th, 2005, 05:08 AM
I haven't found much use for the Cyclo. That is probably because I became very experienced with the PC/G100 first, and learned a lot of adaptive techniques that gave that tool increased versatility. It may very well be that if I'd had the Cyclo first, I wouldn't have much use for the G100/PC.

Both tools work well. I had serious problems with the Cyclo pads I got from TOTL. The company did right by me, so it's no slam against them at all; just get different pads.

The only real caveat I'd render (independent of my opinion which is colored by the order in which I learned the tools) is relative price. If I were offered the choice between getting a PC and a rotary for a combined price of $215 (PC7424 from Lowes for current discounted price of $70 + $15 backing plate, $129 Makita 9227 from ebay) or getting a Cyclo for its current discounted price of $220, I'd get the PC and the Makita and never regret it.

Tom

Accumulator
Nov 12th, 2005, 06:52 AM
Mosca- Yeah, there's no getting around the cost differential. When you can get both a rotary and the PC for the cost of the Cyclo, well, that's a lot of ability for the money.

And yeah#2 with regard to the effect of becoming comfortable with one type of machine first. I started with a rotary and then moved to the Cyclo. Seemed like "the same thing only easier". Whereas the PC, with its different design, felt more foreign to me and with all those years of experience with other machines there's no way the PC can ever become as familiar.

I hear the defective Cyclo pad situation has been cleared up. I was lucky enough to have enough old pads on hand that I never had to buy any during the days of bad batches. Still wish Meguiar's would make 4" pads though. Some day I'm gonna cut some 7006 pads to size and see how they work on the Cyclo.

SpoiledMan
Nov 12th, 2005, 07:52 AM
I'm glad I could help.

When it comes to the price of the Cyclo and how I feel about my tools let's just say that I just bought a Honda mower with the Xenoy deck. Need I say more?

kellyinkc
Nov 12th, 2005, 07:58 AM
Xenoy Honda ALLRIGHT1:xyxthumbs I have one too.

Kelly

Bwiser
Nov 12th, 2005, 02:53 PM
I'm a little unsure about the rotary polisher over the PC DA just because of damage that can occur while using them...but since many of you are experienced with them. I ask you this...are people a little over the top with the destruction of paint with them? and how friendly are they to learn and use? I mean pretty much any tool can damage paint...without proper awareness. Plus if rotary polishers are so unsafe, why do so many people use them.

Thanks! :xyxthumbs

Pete-FWA
Nov 12th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Just as you said, any tool can cause damage to paint. The rotary is the most powerful and causes damage the quickest. This is why great caution is advised to new users of such machines.

Why do so many people use them? They are a very effective tool for getting paint back to "new" condition. They can remove serious defects with stouter products that a DA can not. Rotaries produce results much faster than DA machines.

Why are both of them good machines to have? A rotary, while in the hands of an experienced user, can bring paint to virutally "new" condition. It will, in nearly every case, leave some sort of very fine (hologram) marks that can only be removed by the DA motion not available on a rotary. Also, some paints that only have minor swirling/spiderweb marks only need that last bit of finesse offered by the DA to get back to "new" condition.

Accumulator
Nov 12th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Bwiser- Yep, exactly what Pete-FWA said :xyxthumbs

The rotary isn't all that tough to use properly (that's not to say "master" ;) ) if you have the right mindset. You have to think all the time and you have to use a lot of what I consider common sense. And you can't give in to the "just a little more...." temptation.