rotary buffing school of hard knocks

[danielsan]

First of all, greetings everyone. I'm new here, but not new to Meguiars. I am, however, new to rotary buffing. I've always used their 3 step consumer products, but when I got a variable speed dewalt buffer for $50 at a garage sale that looks like its never been used, I'm taking the plunge.

After turning the rotary on, even at 1000 rpm (it goes from 1K-3K), I'm kinda scared you-know-what-less. I can easily see how you can mess up really bad really quick. The dewalt seems really heavy, though I have nothing to compare it to, and kinda jumps when you turn it on. It definitely doesn't have the "slow start up" I've read about a couple places around here. On the other hand, I am unbelievably excited about the potential results, and I am really loving the treasure trove of information in this forum.

Fortunately, I have a friend with a junker who won't mind me burning all the paint clean off his car. He's apparently planning a repaint soon. The problem is, I'm not sure how good of practice I'm going to get with this car. It's definitely not clear coated, and it has the full gauntlet of problems. Deep scratches, chips through to the metal (with rust), severe oxidation, orange peel, you name it, it has it. That is, it has everything except swirl marks and holograms because it's definitely never gone to a detailler (I'm sure I'll solve the swirl mark and hologram problem real quick). I don't know if it's a single stage or high solid or what (no thickness gauge either). I know many of these problems would normally be handled with sanding, but really all I care about is practicing the buffer to get a show-car shine on my car, not become a paint restoration and repair specialist.

I've watched all the Meguiars videos hosted at better car care, and that was an extremely helpful first step. First of all, what kind of surface prep should I perform? I know I'm going to need to get the bonded contaminants off before the cleaning stage, but the paint seems so damaged and fragile I'm just not sure what it can handle. With so many problems that are so severe, can I even do anything with this car? I'm especially concerned about using the rotary on or around the chips that are all the way through. It seems as if the heat and friction would pull paint off those areas because of the jagged edges. Unfortunately there's a lot of them on the hood which would be the best practice. I know I'm going to need to clay bar, probably with the aggressive one (I have both, I am taking the full plunge, btw how do you know which to use? Use the mild and if that isn't strong enough then go aggressive?).

I should've ordered on the internet to get the 6 1/2" pads, but being as excited as I was, I bought my stuff from a store here, so here is my inventory of products thus far. Tell me what more I might need.

8" velcro backing plate
8" foam cutting pad w-7000
8" foam finishing pad w-9000 (they didn't have the w-8000)
#62 carwash (gallon)
#34 final inspection (gallon)
Aggresive and mild clay bars
#2 fine cut cleaner 16 oz. (all they had, I might need medium/heavy? compound?)
#9 swirl remover 2.0 16 oz.
#26 hi-tech wax 16 oz.

I'll try to take some pictures to help you all better understand the extent to which this poor car has been abused by the sun, birds, and rocks. But, lacking a decent camera, it might be a day or two. Perhaps I'll defer my other many questions until then, such as the proper body position to do the side of a car. Bending over? On your knees? A short stool? I was so excited with my purchases I was imagining doing my personal car (which I won't touch until I feel *extremely* comfortable with the rotary), but I don't know how you would be comfortable and maintain control of a rotary, especially with how heavy mine seems to be. Oh yeah, one other question. I'm sure my pads are going to be dark blue after working on this car. Does that mean I won't be able to use them on a clear coated car in the future? Would it tint the finish blue? I need the practice so I won't really mind having to buy new pads, but I've gone so over budget thus far it would be nice to be able to reuse them.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi danielsan,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

Congratulations on acquiring your rotary buffer! It will take some to become comfortable with it but you're doing the right thing by learning and practicing on a junker car.

As for your questions, after washing the car, go a head and clay it, in most cases you can get great results using the Mild clay.

Start out playing with with #2 with the W-8000 foam pads on about the 1200 to 1500 rpm range. Clean your pad often using a nylon brush like a tooth brush.

you can test the paint before you start buffing to see if it has a clear coat by rubbing some #2 on a white cloth on a fender or hood, or just dive right in and start buffing a panel. After a few seconds, turn your pad over and look for color transfer from the car.

Try only tackling a small are at first, for example just the hood for one day. That would look like this,

Wash
Clay
Clean using #2/W-7006/RB
Polish using #9/W-9006/RB
Apply M26 by hand, allow it to dry until it swipes clear and then remove by hand.

Do the entire hood in this manner and check your results before tackling the rest of the car. Don't worry about buffing over chips, deep scratches, etc, since it's a junker you need to focus on holding the polisher with a steady grip and controlling it as you move it over the finish.

Don't buff bending over, if you have to sit on the ground/floor or a stool so that you're looking directly across from the panel you're buffing.

If you find you're working on a single stage paint and your pads are turning blue, you can still use these on a clear coat finish, the blue pigment will not tint or dye the clear coat blue. Also note you can clean a lot of the leftover residue off by running a nylon brush over the pad after the product on the pad after the pad has dried.

Have fun and best of luck...

[danielsan]

Holy cow! Fastest reply ever! Thanks a million for the instructions! I'll post updates as soon as I can get my hands on the car! As far as the nylon brush goes, will a standard dish-cleaning brush like you would get from the grocery store cut it? Should I look for really firm bristles or kind of soft? Also, do you think it would be better for a first-timer to just order the smaller pads and wait or go ahead and use the 8 inchers? I'm a patient guy, but the craziness inside me is wanting to try out my new toys.

[Mike Phillips]

A firm tooth brush works fine.

The smaller pads are definitely easier to work with, for the majority of years I detailed cars I used the larger pads and then switched to using combinations of pad sizes.

If you're serious about this, and it sounds like you are, then go ahead and get the smaller pads and the smaller backing plate.

[Pete-FWA]

Re: beginner: serious paint defects rotary prep

Originally posted by danielsan
... when I got a variable speed dewalt buffer for $50 at a garage sale that looks like its never been used, I'm taking the plunge...It definitely doesn't have the "slow start up" I've read about a couple places around here.

Welcome to the hobby!

In order to get your DeWalt to start a bit more slowly, don't trigger it all the way, initially. When they're operating correctly, the variable speed DeWalt machines start slowly. Just apply gentle, light pressure on the trigger, but don't push it all the way in.

Experiment with the machine. Push the trigger all the way in, then slowly let it out. You'll learn the feel for how much trigger pressure equates to machine speed. Note that the speed setting on the dial sets the upper RPM limit for the machine. With trigger fully engaged, the machine will only spin as fast as the limit on the speed dial indicates.

[danielsan]

Alright, the first day of using the rotary is over. Finally. It had its ups and downs. Here's the skinny:

1) Wash with #62
2) Clayed hood, roof, and parts of sides with mild clay and #34
3) #2 fine cut on w-7000 pad @ 1200rpm on roof and parts of hood
4) #9 swirl remover 2.0 on w-9000 @ 1200rpm on same areas
5) Got call from girlfriend saying I'm late. Skipped waxing with #26.

Let me start off by saying Rome was not built in a day. I started today thinking I was going to waltz into rotary buffing and discovered that is definitely not the case. It is going to take a lot of practice before I will be qualified to do mine or anyone else's car.

What suprised me the most today was splatter. Perhaps it was priming my pad with the X, and even though I rubbed it in the pad with my hand somewhat before turning it on, as soon as I tried to draw the product into the pad it was all over the place. I mean EVERYWHERE! This is definitely the thing that is going to take the most practice. By the end of the day I was getting a lot better. Keeping a decent amount of pad surface touching the car as you're drawing product into the pad helped a great deal, and applying more pressure than I was initially also helped greatly reduce splatter. Also, I started off on the roof moving too fast and not spending enough time with the cutting pad and the #2 fine cut, exactly like the videos say not to. On the hood however, it went much better as I slowed it down and buffed until there was a light film. However, I kind of burned it to a haze as you can see below in one area. Also, I tried to get a little close to an edge and burned it up in a millisecond. Overall though, I was pleased. This is different than hand detailling, but it is still fun, which is the important thing for me. I could never have improved the finish on this car the way I did with scratch-x or anything else by hand. I can also see how with practice the whole process could be pretty fast. So, without further adieu, here's the story photographically.

First of all, let me give you a picture of the victim, er, car I was working with. It is a Triumph GT6 of unknown year (I'd ask the guy, but he's probably already asleep). As you can see even from far away, its finish has serious issues. For those of you who are worried I'm going to hack away at some antique original paint, I was assured by the owner it was a cheap single-stage repaint. Also, you'll all be glad to know it was about 75 degrees, sunny, and clear today in state income tax-free Houston, TX. Sounds pretty nice, huh? Wait until summer....

Here's a closeup of an area before claying: This car has been a shelf in the garage, and been out in the Texas sun for a long time.

Rear bumper before clay:

Hood after clay. The damage is pretty severe and widespread:
Another hood shot. Sorry for all you slow connection folks:

The roof after claying:

"Reflection shot" of roof after claying. the oxidation is pretty bad.

Roof after #2 fine cut. As you can see, it responded pretty nicely. Unfortunately you can't tell there is still a lot of spider webbing and general damage. You can, however, tell it's a beautiful day.

Reflection shot of the roof after the cleaner with the cutting pad.

The hood after #2 cleaner.

Haze much? Keep product on the buffer and keep it moving is the moral here! I knew there was trouble when I saw a puff of smoke! I'm pretty sure I did this when I was buffing on the cutting pad after moderate pressure when I got outside of the area I had spread the product. This was < 1 sec worth of damage! Eek! I wish I could attribute this to a previous source, but I'm pretty sure I'm to blame. Practice, practice. You can see the difference between that 8" x 8" area and the untouched area above and to the right of it. Incidentally, this is exactly the same area as the hood shot above.

This is why you use *someone else's* junker car: tried to get a little too tricky/fancy with the rotary. Burn, baby burn. Learned my lesson there.

This has got to be the least significant before/after overall shot ever posted on this forum since I really only worked on parts of the hood and roof, but I'll put it up anyway:

And finally, some stress relief based on my first impressions of the rotary.

[danielsan]

Did some more work today on the car but somehow forgot the camera. I'm still really, really struggling against the splatter problem. What do you all do to keep it down? I primed the pads with #34 instead of product today to try to keep it down but it is still going everywhere, especially when I do a convex surface such as the roof. Any help would be appreciated!

[Snowman]

Well I at least admire your effort here to learn. I have yet to even try and get enough courage for using a rotary and it is good to see you are trying by jumping right in. I think I will have to try it one day though. You may think that there are little results with the work you have done but i still give you credit for trying and learning from your mistakes.

[Pete-FWA]

Originally posted by danielsan
I'm still really, really struggling against the splatter problem. What do you all do to keep it down?

New pads will always be more susceptible to splatter since they're still a bit stiff and slightly less absorbent. Just with use, that will go away. Normally, a new W8000 pad feels broken in once I've gone over at least half a full size vehicle. The W7000 pads seem to take a bit longer.

M02 is a more liquid material and lends itself to splatter more than other products. Once the pad is moistened with the product, I try to apply product to the surface instead of into the pad. On startup, I run the machine at low RPM, often triggering on and off as I move the pad down the stripe of product. This spreads it just a bit so that when I turn the RPMs up, it minimizes the slinging. Minimizes, yes: any new pad or even an old one will throw a bit of material.

When I'm barely running the machine, I tend to lean the pad at just a bit of an angle. Think of it being similar to cupping your hand and running it along the stripe of material you've put on the paint. You kind of hold the material in your hand, then push your hand flatter as you spread the material. This moistens your hand with the product, then spreads it along the surface without globs slipping around and out of your palm and dribbling everywhere. Does that analogy make sense?

Are you having any trouble with wadding? That is, does the material clump or wad onto the surface instead of or in addition to slinging? If this is the case, that can be a sign of using too much material. Just for practice, dramatically cut down both the material you put on the surface AND the surface area. When using less material, don't let it run dry. As you get more used to turning on the machine and spreading without splatter, you can work a bit larger area. Meguiar's products tend to spread more, allowing you to use even less than you might of a comparable product in another brand, so keep this in mind as you experiment with the amount used.

All of these will come with time and technique. This technique is much easier demonstrated in person than in written word. Good luck and let us know if this helps at all.

[gregcavi]

Keep at it!! I thought i wasted about two hundred when i got my makita after trying it but I hung in there and I absolutly love it now! It enables me to do some amazning work.

So how to cut down on splatter? use less product of course... of course this on can help a little bit. First put down teh product on teh panel, spread with the pad OFF. NExt turn it on on the lowest speed and spread. Lastly turn up to the desired speed, I woudlnt go over 1000-1200 since your starting out. Even when you get the hang of it I wouldnt go over 1500 rpm.

You might want to get a detailing apron. I bought one but dont really use it anymore. I dotn splatter anymore. Also tape up your trim just in case you might go over it, you dont want to burn it.

Lastly be very careful and stay away from teh edge of the paint or high spots. Dont want to get burned (literally).


Greg

[danielsan]

1st of all, thank you all so much for the help! I don't think I would even be trying this without some kind of support to fall back on!

Pete-FWA: I think I oscillate between using too much product and too little. When I was slinging #2 everywhere, I cut down on the product and tried to spread it more, it ran dry *REALLY* fast and that's when I hazed it, as you can see above. At another point, however, I did see some clumps, but since they were dark blue I thought I aws burning up the paint and those were clumps of paint that had liquified and come off! I should've taken a picture. I'm glad to hear it wasn't balls of paint!

I tried the cupping analogy strategy and it worked famously. Since I've been picking up the product more towards the leading edge of the pad, it was going straight onto me. I mean, I love Meguiars products and all, but not all over me. Not like that. Anyway, that worked great and that's an excellent tip to a newbie like me. I went back and watched the closeup of the product pickup in the megs video and that's exactly what they do too; I wish they'd said something about it.

gregcavi: I tried to implement the slowly-spread-then-speed-up strategy, but it didn't work too well with me. I have to concentrate so fully on keeping the pad flat, keeping it moving, but slowly, and focusing on staying in my area, that having my thumb move the dial is just too much. Besides, the lowest mine goes is 1K rpm, so starting there and going to 1.2K isn't that large of a difference.

The other thing I think that is hindering my progress is the softness of the paint I'm practicing on. When I dried the car after washing it was coming off bigtime onto the towel, that's how bad it is. However, on the roof which has received a lot of sun (apparently it was halfway covered or something weird like that) it's as if the paint was super-baked and much greater pressure and slower movement doesn't do much to remove the scratches. I wish I had one of the thickness gauge thing-a-ma-jigs so I could compare this car to my car, which I eventually want to use this on. I believe that a purchase of 6.5" pads and backing is imminent as well, and that should help.

I read somewhere on the "avoiding holograms and swirls" thread that in order to truly get rid of the marks caused by the buffer it's necessary to use a DA applicator, and that hand products will only cover up the marks. Is this true? I know you can't get to the ultimate end product just with the rotary, but I didn't think it would require another machine.

[OctaneGuy]

Since most of us begin with the safest machine tool, the PC, then gradually move on to something more challenging like the rotary, I like to view the PC as a FINISHING TOOL.

It's something that's safe because it does minimal work to your paint. But in many cases, you have to use a rotary not only for speed reasons--only so many hours in a day-- but also because the defects are just too deep to work out with just a finishing tool.

So consider the rotary and the PC go hand in hand. Use the rotary for doing the majority of the work, but finish it off with the PC for the best finish.

Richard

Originally posted by danielsan
I read somewhere on the "avoiding holograms and swirls" thread that in order to truly get rid of the marks caused by the buffer it's necessary to use a DA applicator, and that hand products will only cover up the marks. Is this true? I know you can't get to the ultimate end product just with the rotary, but I didn't think it would require another machine. [/B]

[Don]

I'm still on the newbie end of the learning curve for the rotary, and some of the things I have learned that have helped me greatly are:


Focus on small areas, with each new area overlapping the last.

Start with less product, and add more as needed, not vice-versa.

Use a separate sponge to apply the product to the panel, this evenly spreads the product around and helps minimize sling.

With the rotary, the aggressiveness of even very mild products is increased dramatically, so it's better to start with a product TWO aggressiveness steps below what you think you need to do the job...the same goes for the pads, use a polishing pad instead of a cutting to start etc.

[Monk]

Senior year of high school I bought that exact car. Like a Spitfire but with 6 cylinders and a fastback. That would 4-wheel drift through corners so pretty. Can't believe there are any still on the road, despite the "English Craftsmanship"