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**Accident** · Feb 23, 2006, 02:25 PM

From my experience, which isn't too much, DC #1 isn't a strong enough cleaner to remove any swirls. Also, with my car, when I got it to finally shine, the swirls started to show. My point with that is that it can be hard to see the swirls marks until it is nice and clean. If you are trying to remove the swirls by hand, it will usually be very hard if the paint isn't soft. Many people like Scratch-x. I've seen people have a lot of success with DACP with a machine, but I know nothing about that. Here is a link about using scratch-x by hand:

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7011

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1516

I hope this helps some and good luck.

Edit: Also, make sure that all of your applicators are clean. I've never had any problems with DC #1 putting swirls into a clearcoat, and I've used it on a deep black car. The only one I haven't used was the wax, but the polish/cleaner didn't swirl at all.

**TH0001** · Feb 23, 2006, 02:27 PM

All help is appericated, but to be honest with you, I would like something I can either hit with a rotary or a D/A because I am sick and tired of going over that thing by hand, lol.

**Accident** · Feb 23, 2006, 02:29 PM

Here is another thread by Mike, about using a machine to remove swirls:

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2965

Also, all of this can be found in this forum:

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=33

I understand the frustration with working by hand, I wish I had a DA to work with

.

**Magic** · Feb 23, 2006, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by TH0001
All help is appericated, but to be honest with you, I would like something I can either hit with a rotary or a D/A because I am sick and tired of going over that thing by hand, lol.

It's not that the 1-2-3 steps didn't work, you just expected better results than the DC line can give you.

I was in the same boat as you.. I bought the 1-2-3 and I had some good results, but swirls were still there. I found out the 1-2-3 wasn't aggressive enough and moved to Scratch X. By the time I used Scratch X on all of my truck, my arms were ready to fall off. I did get better results though. But I still wanted better, and forked out the cash for a PC. I can't tell you how easy the PC was to use, and how much better my finished looked. I got about 95% of the swirls out. Not perfect but I was happy.

I used #80 on my truck, and spot used #83 on the deeper swirls #80 couldn't get out. Then I followed back up on those spots with #80 again, to remove the marring the #83 left.

FYI I will never go back to hand waxing again!

This is the perfect link if you decide to buy the PC and use it to remove the swirls.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2965

**gb387** · Feb 23, 2006, 02:59 PM

I agree with Accident... Deep Crystal System Cleaner is very gentle really not intended to remove swirls. As Accident suggested ScratchX is a good option when working by hand.

**TH0001** · Feb 23, 2006, 03:00 PM

Wow, nice finds fellas, I appericate it... After I knock out the swirls, do you think the 3 stage system will be good for twice a year detailing.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but a D/A the same as an orbital, correct?

**Mike Phillips** · Feb 23, 2006, 03:03 PM

Hi Todd,

The Deep Crystal System has been around for 25 plus years, nothing in this business stays around that long unless you have a lot of happy customers that purchase it a second time as well as recommend it to their friends. Trust me on this one.

You're disappointment is rather with the frustrations a lot of people go through when they try to remove the swirls and scratches out of their paint and find it difficult to do. One of the reasons for this is because the paints changed starting back in the early 1980's and modern clear cleats tend to be harder than the older single-stage paints and therein lies the the problem.

Modern clear coats last longer and are more durable than older single-stage paints, but the trade-off in durability comes at a price. Swirls and scratches can still be removed, but you need to educate yourself and then arm yourself with the right tools to do the job.

Read this,

What it Means to Remove a Scratch

It can be done, in fact I'm creating a thread right now where in front of about 30 people last Saturday in Dallas, Texas I stood in front of these people and showed them how to use their hands or the G100 Dual Action Polisher and remove swirls, scratches, and bird dropping etchings.

Here's the thread and after I git send on this thread I have to get back to working on the photos for the next installment.

Meguiar's Roadshow Goes To Dallas!

**Accident** · Feb 23, 2006, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by TH0001
Wow, nice finds fellas, I appericate it... After I knock out the swirls, do you think the 3 stage system will be good for twice a year detailing.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but a D/A the same as an orbital, correct?

I detail my car weekly, and my girlfriend's monthly. I don't know that it will last for six months. I've heard people saying that they have had success with Meg's lasting for 3-4 months, but I haven't read anything about people going for half a year without detailing. Here is a link to the 5 step process that Meg's recommends:

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2409

The Scratch-X or DACP will fall under the cleaning/prepearing step. After that, I think that the 3 DC products will work well. I myself haven't used the wax, so I don't know anything about the durability of it, but the cleaner and the polish look great, even before I wax. Many people also use quick detailers to further enhance the look and protection between waxes. It is all personal prefrence. Anyway, I hope that I've helped, and again, I don't know much about the DA or what exactly it is, sorry.

**Gipraw** · Feb 23, 2006, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by TH0001

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but a D/A the same as an orbital, correct?

If, by an orbital, you mean one of these

G100a Dual Action Polisher

then yes, it is .. if you mean one of those 8" or 10" waxmaster, or something like it that are sold at the local discount store, then no, there is a huge difference.

**Aurora40** · Feb 23, 2006, 06:27 PM

Re: Not impressed with the Deep Crystal system

Originally posted by TH0001
Did I by the wrong product for the job.

I'd say yes. The Deep Crystal step #1 is not a serious swirl buster. And clay will do nothing to correct swirls, but can induce more.

I'd also suggest that just because a pad didn't scratch, or noticeably scratch, your friends VW doesn't mean it won't instill scratches in your finish. Different paints, and different colors. Metallic blue will be a lot more forgiving of swirls than black will be.

Since you went with the DC line, I'd suggest the easy-to-find-locally Scratch-X. Try it on a spot and see if you can correct the swirls that way. If so, great, if not then you need to kick it up a notch to find what works.

I really don't think it's about brand, it's about selecting the right course of action that will bring the results you want.

**SiriusRIMZ** · Feb 23, 2006, 06:55 PM

If you want ultimate durablity in a wax, I suggest you try using #21 or #20, as they have been on my jeep now for 4 months through, Ice, snow, salt, and rain, and still I get beads of water.

**Mike Phillips** · Feb 24, 2006, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by TH0001
Wow, nice finds fellas, I appericate it... After I knock out the swirls, do you think the 3 stage system will be good for twice a year detailing.

Depends on your goals and how the vehicle is used. If your appearance standardsa are high and your store the car in a heated garage then yes, the Deep Crystal System will be fine.

If your appearacne goals are high and the vehicle is a daily driver than nothing beats the look of a just waxed car. Remember, wax is a sacrificial barrier coating, it's meant to sacrfice itself so your paint doesn't have to. But if this is the case, then this means your coating of wax is always wearing off, or sacrficing itself whenever it's in essense touched, thus even washing your car can remove wax off the surface.

Most people that care about their car's appearacne and about maintaint a certain level of protection will wax at least 3 times a year, more if you're a serious enthusiasts.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but a D/A the same as an orbital, correct?

There is so much information like this in the Information Station under Hot Topics

Rotary vs. PC vs. Regular Orbital Buffer

First, let's start with the information in Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ

2. What's the difference between?

* Dual-Action polisher
* Orbital buffer
* Rotary buffer

Dual-Action polishers and Orbital buffers

The motors and drive units on these two types of polisher's oscillate in an eccentric circular motion. This type of motion is much safer to the paint because it's virtually impossible to apply too much concentrated pressure in one place at one time. Chances are good that when too much pressure is applied, the oscillating action will come to a stop thereby protecting the finish.

Because these types of machines oscillate instead of rotate, they will not instill the dreaded buffer swirls or holograms into your finish as long as you use the appropriate chemicals, buffing pads and bonnets. This safety feature makes these machines highly popular with enthusiasts who would like to use a machine but at the same time, are afraid of burning or inflicting swirls into their car's finish.

Both the G-100 and Orbital buffers offer a number of benefits:

* Uncomplicated – Remove from box, attach buffing pad or bonnet, plug in, turn on, start buffing.

* Versatile – Can be used for cleaning, polishing, and applying waxes.

* Takes most of the labor out of the process, the machine does the work, all you do is hold it.

* Faster, more thorough - you can cover more area and do a better job with a machine.

* Creates a more uniform, higher gloss finish than your hands.

* Pushes polishing oils and protective waxes into the pores and microscopic surface imperfections far better than your hands can ever accomplish.

In recent years, the Porter Cable Dual-Action polisher (G-100) has become the machine of choice over the older style Orbital buffers for a number of different reasons:

* Smaller size and lighter weight makes them easier for anyone to use.

* Very easy to control, requires no previous experience or skill to use correctly.

* Smaller size enables you to work on small panels and tight areas easier with better control.

* More options for buffing pads and bonnets.

* Velcro® interface makes changing between pads fast and easy.

Rotary buffers

Rotary buffers are drastically different in the way they work compared to Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers.

The drive unit used in a rotary buffer is referred to as a direct drive. What this means is the auger, (the threaded part to which the backing plate attaches), is driven directly off the electric motor. This results in a powerful rotating motion. This rotating motion is typically clockwise as you look at the rotary buffer from behind, as though you were using it on a panel.

Because the rotary buffer is a direct drive machine, it can do a lot of work very quickly. By work, we mean, the rotary buffer will remove paint.

Meguiar's understands the average person doesn't want to remove precious paint from their car's finish. However, sometimes removing paint is necessary in order to create a high gloss, defect-free finish. Example: If you have a scratch in your car's finish, say someone keyed your car, or a cat jumped up on the hood and left behind claw scratches. From a horizontal point of view, these scratches would look like this,

In order to remove these scratches, you will need to remove enough paint surrounding the scratches in order to make the surface level. As you can see in this example, removing the scratches will require removing quite a bit of paint material, and in the case of the deep key scratch (where the arrow is pointing), you will not be able to completely remove it without exposing the base, or color coat of paint. This is a situation where you are better off improving the scratch, not completely removing the scratch.

Second Example: Many cars, after being painted, are wet-sanded in order to remove orange peel or to bring the surface to a show car quality finish. After the finish has been sanded, the way you remove the sanding marks is to buff the finish with a cutting compound and a rotary buffer. The cutting compound abrades the paint, removing, or leveling the finish until it’s completely flat.

After the surface is buffed flat, it will then be polished with a cleaner/polish like Meguiar’s M-83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with the rotary buffer to restore a swirl-free, high gloss finish. Rotary buffers are necessary to do both of these procedures because both of these procedures require that some portion of the paint is removed.

Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers do not have an aggressive enough action to remove small particles of paint in an effort to remove most defects, including sanding marks. This is the same reason Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers are safe… they don’t have an aggressive action, thus they are safe. However, because they are safe (do not have an aggressive action), they are not aggressive enough to remove all but the finest of scratches.

Do not purchase a dual action polisher or orbital buffer hoping to use these to remove major or even minor scratches, as they are just not aggressive enough. They can often be used to remove fine or shallow scratches and swirls, but they will not remove any scratch that is deep enough to place your fingernail into.

Remember, using a rotary buffer successfully requires both skill and experience. If you use a rotary buffer and are not skilled in its use, you can easily apply too much pressure to the paint and burn right through it, requiring a new paint job. This same result can happen if you use a buffing pad attached to an electric drill.

**Mike Phillips** · Feb 24, 2006, 05:55 AM

Re: Not impressed with the Deep Crystal system

Originally posted by TH0001
Did I by the wrong product for the job. Thankyou,

Todd

Start here Todd, get the fundamentals under your belt first.

Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle

Step 1 Wash

Step 2 Clean

Step 3 Polish

Step 4 Protect

Step 5 Maintain

**TH0001** · Feb 25, 2006, 04:59 AM

Mike, thanks for the link to the 5-step system. I have had experince detailing cars previously.

1)I washed the car

2)I prepped the surface with stage1-using a clay bar first

3)I thought I was polishing with the "polish"

4)I sealed the paint with wax.

I am familar with how cleaning, prepping and so forth works, I was just confused because the clear coat scrub says "swirl remover" and since it is labeled as a "clear coat scrub" I figured it would remove the swirl marks (which aren't partiucally deep on my vehicle) on my clear coat.

I am also confused, with out starting anything, that how can something that has been around for 25 years be labeled as "clear coat scrub" when clear coats where not really around back then.

I guess after I hit the surface with the claybar/body scrub I should have used a machine polish, either 80 or 83 to remove the swirls, or used the swirl remover by hand.

As far as my detailing twice a year comment, what I ment specifically is that I normally was my car every one or two weeks (using the clay bar every 3rd time) and wax it every 2-3 months (usually 2 with carnuba wax). But as I stated, I really don't wanna buff my car with the three stage sytem every time, usually twice a year to take it all the way down.

One final question, sorry. I really like the deep gloss of carnuba wax on dark paints (from my experince carnuba wax is unparrelled compared to synthetic waxes for gloss on darker colored vechiles), so would it be benefical at all to apply carnuba wax over the next gen wax?

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Not impressed with the Deep Crystal system

Not impressed with the Deep Crystal system

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