CorvetteForum at Meguiar's!

[scrub]

Awesome difference!! I can't believe the difference with one coat of NXT. You have to be kidding right. That's great. As you stated there are still flaws and I can't wait to see the next round of photos.

Thanks for the thread very informative.

[Mike Phillips]

Here's Chuck removing the Zaino and working the swirls out using Meguiar's #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish with the W-8006 foam polishing pad on the Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher, ( G-100a ) on about the 5.0 setting.



Finished results in the sun! Note, while the finish is much more clear and vibrant, and rich in color, there is still a hint of cobweb-effect. This was Chuck's first time using the porter cable and as we discussed, a little more time spent on the finish and he will be able to successfully remove about 95% of all the swirls.


And here's the parting shot. It's fun showing people how to get the best results from their time, money and efforts especially on cool cars like this black C5 Corvette!

Way to go Chuck!



Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by scrub
Awesome difference!! I can't believe the difference with one coat of NXT. You have to be kidding right.

Not kidding at all. When I first talked to Chuck about using his Corvette for a demonstration, I picked it out of the Corvettes that were there because I knew the hazy finish would make a great before and after demonstration. I didn't know he had been layering Zaino on his paint.

When we did the demonstration, I knew some of the more vocal folks on a number of different forums might try to position any successful results on my skills and ability if I applied it so I purposefully invited CorvetteForum members to apply the Tech Wax by hand.

Then, after other members removed the dried wax, I stood back to take pictures and let the members be the first to see the results. I didn't want to influence or get in the way of anyone seeing the immediate net results.

Only after everyone had plenty of time to review the results did I get closer and take some pictures.

I took the opportunity of having members of CorvetteForum standing there looking directly at the two different sides, one side with over 12 layers of Zaino on one side and one application of NXT Tech Wax to discuss the words darkness and richness as well as the term optically clear.

Some people have been led to believe that if you darken paint with a polish that this is a bad thing. Typically this comes from the Zaino users stressing the claimed ability of the Zaino product to be 99.9% optically clear, (even though they are pink and blue and tan, etc. in the bottle, they definitely are not clear).

I often see someone touting this as a extraordinary feature of the product. But as you can see, even after 12+ coats of Zaino layered over this clear coated black finish, it doesn't look good in the sun.



I tried my best to explain that the word darken has been misunderstood, or purposefully positioned in the negative by some for their own reasons, but in the real world, as they could see with their own eyes, when you add richness to a car’s finish, it always looks better.

I then pointed to the NXT Tech Wax side and pointed out how Tech Wax added richness, (darkness), to the paint and made it more

* Clear
* Reflective
* Glossy
* Deep
* Wet-looking

and asked everyone again, "Which side looks better?" and as far as I can tell the answer was unanimously the driver's side.

If you want your car's paint to look it's best, you want it to be clear and rich in color. Meguiar's has always championed these results. This is why year after year, more people whose cars win best of class and best of show at the most prestigious car show in the world, the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance choose and use Meguiar's. It's important that their car's paint look it's very best under close scrutiny of thousands of people and more important, the Concours Judges!

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

After the side-by-side, before & after demonstration on Chuck's black C5 it was time to see how effective ScratchX can be when used by hand on this black Corvette.



Here's what the finish looked like before we did anything. Note: The line running down the middle of the finish is a reflection off the building. We have not applied any products at this time.



Next, we ran a tape line down the right side of this rear panel to better show before and after. On the right side, we applied ScratchX followed by one coat of NXT Tech Wax. After the Tech Wax had dried, we removed and I snapped a couple of photos.





You can see where the blue tape left a line. To the right is where we applied the ScratchX and the Tech Wax. Notice how this combination of products removed a large percentage of swirls and then added clarity and richness to the finish.

Mike

[hirosh]

wow, nice, long write-up.

awesome 'vettes, and the single camaro and lambo. i loved that '70 vette, i wonder why it has racing seats?

anyways, i find it funny yet confusing, how much discussion is generated with NXT. and i think that demonstration on that black vette is a good example that NXT *is* a good product, and that layering products is not always beneficial. i also think it shows your integrity by allowing the CorvetterForum members do the work and see the results first. any nay sayers need to get their heads checked.

great job Mike!

[Mark70Vette]

Originally posted by scrub
Awesome difference!! I can't believe the difference with one coat of NXT. You have to be kidding right. That's great. As you stated there are still flaws and I can't wait to see the next round of photos.

Thanks for the thread very informative.

Not kidding!! I was there, and that was only one coat of NXT wax. I've never used Zaino (seemed like too much effort), but now I'm a firm Meguiar's convert!

BTW, I finally registered here, so I can thank Mike and Chuck for setting up this detail day. I learned SO much!! I'm now thinking about getting a PC, some #83, and trying my hand at cobweb removal.

Hi Hirosh,
I got those Corbeau seats for a couple of reasons (cheaper, and more supportive than stock). I've taken the car autocrossing, and the new seats are a HUGE improvement!!

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

This was a fun and productive clinic. I think everyone had a good time and I hope everyone learned at least 2-3 things they could use to help them with their car care maintenance.

If you'll remember, I offered to help you polish the black paint on your 1970 Corvette and the offer is still open. I'm looking for a car for an extreme makeover on Thursday, August 5th starting at 5:00pm.

While your car will be a not-so-extreme-makeover, it will definitely be fun to take your car's finish to it's maximum potential.

Let me know...

Mike

[Mark70Vette]

Hey Mike!!

Thanks again for your generous "not-so-extreme-makeover" offer!! I haven't forgotten, I'm just trying to see if I can arrange it (you're 85 miles from me).....I'd probably have to take some time off from work to make it there by 5:00. August 5th would be perfect timing for me, since I'll be exhibting my car in Monterey at the Concorso Italiano on the following Friday, 8/13. Let me see if I can beg for some time off!! The paint could certainly use some help.....it has cobwebs (wear and tear), plus some nasty swirls left by the detailer (looks like a dirty rotary buffer). Needless to say, I won't be going back to that detailer again. Maybe I can start doing it myself, right??

Mark

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mark,

I've reserved the Training Garage for Thursday, August 5th. If you like and you can fit it into your schedule, we can start as early as 9:00am or sometime in the afternoon? If you can get the time off, it might be a good idea to head this way earlier to beat traffic.

Mike

[NelsonV98Vert]

Well, mine may not be as "extreme", nor as interesting a project as a 1970 Stingray, but if Mark can't make it that day. . .

[Bill D]

I have no personal experience with Zaino nor NXT but from browsing this thread it appears uncorrected paint was topped with12 layers of Zaino . How would the Zaino look over corrected paint and then how would it compare to NXT? Also, doesn't NXT have fillers that could possibly hide the kind of defects the Zaino doesn't?

[NavindraLR]

i agree

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Bill D
I have no personal experience with Zaino nor NXT but from browsing this thread it appears uncorrected paint was topped with 12 layers of Zaino . How would the Zaino look over corrected paint and then how would it compare to NXT? Also, doesn't NXT have fillers that could possibly hide the kind of defects the Zaino doesn't?

Hi Bill,

Good questions. I'm following the thread started about this on Autopia, it might get interesting.

Here's the deal.

While looking over the Corvettes that were brought to Meguiar's I found a few black ones that looked like they would work well for demonstrating on. After inspecting them, I chose the one used for the demonstration based upon the swirled and hazy look of the finish. I then sought out the owner to ask him if I could use it to demonstrate on. Until I located and spoke with him, I did not know that he had been using Zaino. Let me say that again. Until I located and spoke with the owner of the black C5 with the hazy, swirly finish, I did not know he was using Zaino.

When he told me what he was using, I almost decided to pass on his car because I was concerned over the ruckus this may stir up. My experience of applying NXT Tech Wax over nice cars with lots of Zaino told me that it was going to be a powerful demonstration, so I figured, might as well go for it and let the cards fall where they may.

I asked the owner to pull the car into the garage so that it could cool off. Before he pulled it in, I asked everyone to closely inspect the finish in the sun and to remember what it looked like. After the finish cooled off, we taped the hood down the middle. We wiped the drivers side down so that we wouldn’t apply Tech Wax over light dust, if any. The Corvette is garage kept, rarely washed, and babied by the owner.

I don’t know what kind of prep work the owner performed before he started layering on the Zaino, in a way it doesn’t matter because he’s probably typical of most people that do their own car care maintenance. It also doesn’t matter because the NXT side wasn’t going to get any prep-work before application.

I knew going into this if the results were good for the NXT side, that some people in the forum world would say the results were due to my skill level for detailing cars. So I asked for a volunteer to apply the Tech Wax and got two volunteers, the owner and another gentleman.

They applied the Tech Wax in a normal fashion. In other words, they applied a thin coat to one half of the hood. We then let it dry for 10-15 minutes and then I asked for volunteers to remove the Tech Wax with Meguiar’s microfiber polishing cloths. After this, we pulled the car out into the sun.

Whenever I do these demonstrations, I always lag behind and let everyone else inspect the results. I try to capture the event on film. Which is exactly what I did in this demonstration. I wanted to insure that in no way I influenced the results and/or peoples impressions.

Afterwards, when everyone was able to get close to the car, I took photos using a Cannon Digital Rebel, and my Sony FD97. The photos accurately represent what everyone there saw with their own two eyes.



Now on to your questions,

Originally posted by Bill D
I have no personal experience with Zaino nor NXT but from browsing this thread it appears uncorrected paint was topped with 12 layers of Zaino

We don’t know that Zaino was applied to uncorrected paint. I didn’t ask the owner if he did any prep work before applying the Zaino. At the time, I didn’t think to ask. In the last year or so, I have worked on many special interest cars such as Corvettes that have Zaino on them and often times the owner purchased the car new, or in excellent condition to start with and in their eyes the finish did not need any prep-work.

Regardless, one of the claims made about Zaino is that you can layer it, and with more and more layers, the finish will get better and better looking. Another is the claim that the product is 99.9% Optically Clear and thus will not change the color of the finish. When I looked at the finish, before speaking with the owner and finding out it had Zaino on it, I thought it looked dull and hazy. Thus I was surprised to find out it had 12 plus layers of Zaino on it.

I have noticed that some people believe the optically clear claim, (even though the product in the bottle isn’t clear), they also believe that if you use a product that changes the color, this is a bad thing. I specifically focused the people’s eyes that watched the demonstration, on the difference in color of the two sides. The NXT side was clear and rich in color. I asked everyone there which side they would prefer their car’s finish to look like, the answer was unanimously, the NXT side.

The NXT Tech Wax, darkened the paint, it restored clarity, depth, gloss and richness. Why anyone would want to believe this is a negative thing I do not understand. I think it’s something people can talk about, (not changing the color of the paint), but when confronted with their own two eyes, they cannot make the argument that the optically clear claim holds any water. The side with 12 layers of Zaino looked horrible compared to the rich, clear high gloss finish one application of NXT Tech Wax produced with no prep work.

This same thing applies to any color of paint, clear coated or non-clear coated. Meguiar’s polishes and waxes are formulated to add richness to paint, it make the paint look beautiful. Now this is where the distracters will turn the discussion to durability, but from all my years of going to car shows, I have never witnessed someone walking up to a car owner and say,

”Wow! Nice looking protection!”

Instead, the statement usually goes something like this,

”Wow! Your finish looks great!”

I fully understand the protection and durability issues, but for cars like this Corvette, and for many people that own a car like this, the issue isn’t about durability and protection, it’s about how to make the car look it’s best. The durability and protection issue is a straw man argument when the distracter understands they cannot win the beauty argument.

The test was fair according to the hype surrounding Zaino’s claim that layering creates a show car shine. But in the interest of this question, the owner has e-mailed me to thank him for showing him how to create a beautiful finish on his Corvette, so I’ll e-mail him back and ask him if

A) If his car needed any prep-work before applying Zaino
B) If his car needed prep-work, what, if any, prep-work was performed

Your second question,

How would the Zaino look over corrected paint and then how would it compare to NXT?

I have performed this test myself multiple times on black paint. Black paint, whether clear coated or non-clear coat, is the true test of any product, (not red paint).

The test is hard to do because Zaino requires that the finish be free of oils, waxes and silicones in order for their polymers to properly bond. This usually means washing with a high alkaline detergent soap. Of course, Meguiar’s compounds, paint cleaners, cleaner/polishes and pure polishes all contain Meguiar’s trade secret polishing oils which act to lubricate the surface and add beauty. To wash a panel with dawn after using Meguiar’s’ products or most products will act to dull the finish down. This makes the paint look ugly, not beautiful. It also goes back to the optical clarity claim. People have been led to believe that making paint look beautiful is a bad thing, when all the people looking at the two different sides of this Corvette unanimously agreed that the NXT side looked not just better, but dramatically better.



But in the interest of testing the results of the product, I have washed the panels/hoods of cars with high alkaline detergent soaps and also used a 50/50 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water to wipe them down afterwards, insuring 100% the surface was clean and free from anything on the finish.

The results, the NXT Tech Wax created a richer looking finish and a more swirl free looking finish. Tests are always performed with integrity or the test would be for nothing.

Also, doesn't NXT have fillers that could possibly hide the kind of defects the Zaino doesn't?

The polishing oils in any Meguiar’s product do act to help eliminate swirls and scratches, but their primary purpose is to add beauty and gloss. The way they do this is in part by filling in minor surface imperfections. The result is a better-looking finish. Just ask the winners of Best of Show and Best of Class at the most prestigious car show in the world, the Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance of which Meguiar’s is used on the majority of the cars year after year for as long as records have been kept.

I often find people on forums positioning these polishing oils as fillers, when the truth is their primary purpose is to,

* Lubricate the surface to aid in the procedure being performed. This is a type of adding beauty because it is reducing scouring, scratching and marring.

* Create brilliant high gloss and deep dark reflections.

In fact, here’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about, the below was posted to a related thread on Autopia,

Originally posted by BradE
Guess which lasts longer. Amazing what some oil and filler can do, isn't it?

The power of NXT over 12 layers of Zaino on black C5

Part of creating a show car finish is to first remove as many of the defects as humanly possible. After this has been successfully accomplished, there are usually very fine surface imperfections that only show up in bright light, like direct sunlight, and cannot be completely 100% removed. This is especially true with clear coats, and clear coats over black and dark colored base coats. At this point, to take your results to their maximum potential, you need a product that will carry your results over the top. NXT Tech Wax will do this for you. This is why if I have to prepare a real show car for display, I believe NXT Tech Wax is the best choice for use as your last step product, (LSP).


NXT showcases your car’s finish and your hard work. After removing the second, thin coat.. it’s time to stand back and admire the results, not add more and more coats.


People put the focus on durability, when they can’t win the beauty challenge. They fail to point out that the results created by all products fall-off with repeated washing but some products cannot take the finish to the extreme beauty results to start with such as NXT Tech Wax.


Here’s a shot of 12 layers of Zaino that BradE says is better because it will last a long time.



See what I mean? Putting the focus on durability is a straw man argument when you leave out the appearance portion of the equation.

Mike

[Bill D]

Hi Mike,

I really appreciate your taking the time to address this issue.

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
I don’t know what kind of prep work the owner performed before he started layering on the Zaino, in a way it doesn’t matter because he’s probably typical of most people that do their own car care maintenance. It also doesn’t matter because the NXT side wasn’t going to get any prep-work before application.


We don’t know that Zaino was applied to uncorrected paint.

I don't know, sure looks like that paint was uncorrected, it's loaded with cobwebs. Looks like the guy just layered Zaino over maybe a washed and clayed surface, not compounded or polished.

I just wonder how these LSPS would have looked on this particular car had it been polished, all defects truly removed to the best extent reasonable, beforehand.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that Zaino does not contain oils, whether they be fillers or not . I believe the oil ingredients in NXT contribute to the look. ( Which is perfectly ok, BTW)


Perhaps NXT has started a new version of the sealant vs. wax debate instead this time, it's two sealants vs each other, if I understand right,NXT sorta seems to offer what a wax traditionally has and in this case, Zaino offers what a traditionally a sealant has.

Overall, it appears two products that produce two different kinds of looks were shown. I'm not sure if one is necessarily "better" than the other, that's all part of the criteria ( durability, etc, etc) important to the consumer when selecting a LSP.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Bill,

I'll try to find out if any prep work was done to the Corvette.

I think the point of the demonstration was to show Corvette enthusiasts that either use Zaino, or read and hear about it, what the difference is in appearance with a real side by side demonstration on a black Corvette with 12 plus layers of Zaino already on it.

Any product is going to look better if the finish is properly prepared. I don't believe washing with strong detergent soaps is going to help a LSP look better however. That becomes the difficult part in test a product like Zaino. Washing with detergent soaps is called working backwards if the goal is to create a show car shine, i.e. beauty.

I notice on Autopia a lot of people are not reading the words I wrote and drawing wrong conclusions, I don’t have time to show them where they drew wrong conclusions because they didn’t read and understand the words, but here’s a couple of instances,

One such post commented on how I used the sun to highlight the swirls in the Zaino side. They apparently didn't read the part where I said that there were still swirls in the NXT side and somehow they missed the pictures with the sun on the NXT side showing swirls, just a whole lot less of them.

Here's what I wrote,

Here's a sun shot on the NXT side, remember, this is one coat applied by hand over the existing Zaino layers. There are still some light swirls in the finish.

And here's the picture that goes with the above comments,



I guess the person that tried to make it look like I only put the sun on the Zaino side didn't see this picture.

Another person wrote that the results were because I applied the product. Apparently they didn't read the words either. Another person posted that the NXT side was prepped, while the Zaino side was not. Sheesh... doesn't anyone read anymore?

Neither side was prepped at all. The car was spotlessly clean when it arrived. The owner maintains the car with lots of applications of Zaino and it is always parked in a garage except when he drives it.

The test wasn't about prepping the finish, it was about showing the difference between 12 layers of a competitors products promoted to be a product that turns your car's finish into a Show Car Finish with more and more layers, and what it really looks like when you compare it to a finish treated with just one application of Tech Wax.

The difference helped people to see the difference. I find that most people don't know how to do a good side-by-side demonstration, and more than that, most people don't do side-by-side demonstrations, they just apply a product to the entire car and then form their opinions. I also notice when some people do their testing, they don't do it with integrity and their results are skewed.

Most important is the fact that this demonstration was done Live in front of 26 people without my assistance.

A couple of them even posted to this thread backing up what I posted.

How long will the results NXT created last? Hard to say, this guy, like many Corvette owners keeps his car in a garage except when driving it. The results will fall-off with repeated washing, especially with a detergent soap and will eventually look like the Zaino side. Point is, most products I've tested won't take the finish to the beauty level NXT will, thus the reason some people put the focus on things that cannot be easily measured instead of the results they and others can see with their eyes.

To really take this car's finish to it's maximum potential, it needs to have the swirls removed as best as possible and then have a paint protectant applied. This is what I taught the owner to do after the demonstration using the G-100, with Meguiar's #83 on a W-8006 polishing pad. Afterwards, the owner is going to apply the product that adds richness and creates a swirl free finish in the sun.

Mike