M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

[invertalon]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I give up on M21 personally... I used it for the third, and last time. NXT 2.0 worked flawless for me, never giving me any issue. Yet, M21 streaks and "bloches" like its supposed to do it. It's horrible!

I had to go around the car 3-4 times with UQD trying to remove the streaking. I applied it via PC and a finishing pad, a thin coat. Once applied, it had close to an hour to dry. Swipe test "passed" and all. NXT 2.0 always swipped off clean each and every time, yet this is really giving me problems...

Sadly, the first Meguiar's product that I really don't like Going back to NXT 2.0...

[mongo]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

invertalon are applying M21 over a polish or directly on paint I have used M21 over M81 and it spread very evenly and thinly removal is very easy.

I do wish Meguiars made a sealant with no cleaners or only a little chemical cleaner.

[invertalon]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

Applying over a freshly clayed surface, no polish was put down prior.

[fordf150]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I use #21 and have not had any streaking issues. I use thin coats and do the swipe test to make sure it ready before buffing it out. Usually that is 15 -20 minutes unless it is very humid.

[AUTODETAILER]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

ok

[Houckster]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

Has anyone experimented with M21 combined w/Polycharger? Anyone have an idea how to determine cure time?

I've done some testing with Polycharger at the same treat rate as they recommend for NXT 2.0 and it seems ready to buff of in less than 5 minutes. I did not experience any problems.

[fordf150]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

5 minutes would be much quicker than I've experienced with just M21 alone. With warmer temps I find it took 20-30 minutes before swipe test showed it was ready. This fall when I did it under mid to upper 50's temps it took over an hour before it was ready. No clue how it would react with polycharger though.

I will say though use THIN coats as that will make a huge difference on how long it takes to cure.

[Alfisti]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I also find Polycharging a product accelerates drying time. Not a bad thing though.

[Houckster]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I thought that I'd pass on what I read on another forum about M21 and cure time. The recommendation was to leave the M21 on for 12 hours (Polycharger wasn't part of the discussion) so that it would fully cure before removing the haze. It seems to me that the protection might be more durable with this method. I'm going to try this tonight. I already have a coat of M21 on the car that I mixed with Polycharger. I won't strip what's already there, just add another layer of M21/Polycharger and wait twelve hours. I see how that works as far as ease of removal goes. Any other conclusions will take a lot longer to reach.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I thought that I'd pass on what I read on another forum about M21 and cure time. The recommendation was to leave the M21 on for 12 hours (Polycharger wasn't part of the discussion) so that it would fully cure before removing the haze. It seems to me that the protection might be more durable with this method. I'm going to try this tonight. I already have a coat of M21 on the car that I mixed with Polycharger. I won't strip what's already there, just add another layer of M21/Polycharger and wait twelve hours. I see how that works as far as ease of removal goes. Any other conclusions will take a lot longer to reach.

Morning,

Unfortunately, many forums have too many different theories, such as leaving pure M21 on for 12 hours before removing, which is not correct.

Applying and removing a LSP too soon can cause streaking and bonding issues. However, just as bad as removing it too soon, leaving it on too long can also cause streaking.

I had this discussion a number of years ago with a Meguiar's chemist as he explained that there is a certain amount of time for which a product should be removed. Hence the reason the Swipe Test was developed which takes the guess work out of wondering if a certain humidity, or temperature is affecting the removal process.

I am not a fan of disrupting the chemical properties of a product by adding another product to it which was not designed by the chemists who developed M21 in the first place. As an individual product, Meguiar's can assure a certain level of performance; but by the addition of another product, the properties have changed. Whether it makes it better or worse, is anyone's guess.




Tim

[Houckster]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I didn't really state this proposition as a "theory". I just passed along what I heard and that I was going to see for myself how it worked.

How do you know that leaving M21 on for that long is "wrong"? I did as I said I would do and applied the M21/Polycharger combination to my truck and left it on for about 12 hours before buffing part of the sealant. It removed easily after 12 hours. The rest I left on for a full 24 hours and it came off almost as easily. There was no streaking at all, nor did I expect any. You say you base your contention on a conversation you had a "number of years ago" but I don't think you can be positive that those comments apply to M21 as it's a new formula.

Meguiar's, so far as I know states only that when sealing a car, that you seal the entire vehicle before starting to remove the haze. They provide no information I can recall that warns of problems if the haze is not removed within some period of time so I don't think that the amount of time that the haze is left on the surface is really critical at all or Meguiar's would have provided some warning about this.

Streaking seems to me to be a function of environmental conditions such as high humidity in effect at the time of sealant application and/or haze removal more than the time the haze is left in place.

As far as your reservations about using Polycharger with M21, first, I've read here that M21 is about the same as the NXT 2.0 sealant. Polycharger has been mixed with NXT and tested by Polycharger so using M21 with Polycharger didn't and doesn't seem like such a risk and the paint on my Ranger looks at least as good as it ever has.

I think it's important to realize that even if leaving the sealant on the paint without buffing for too long a time or using Polycharger with the M21, or even doing both as I have done is no big deal. If it doesn't work and the result is poor, you apply a polish like M205 or even M105 and start over having learned something. We're not dealing with life or death here. And there's always the possibility that additional benefits in terms of greater durability, shine or some other benefit might be realized. Hey, a little experimentation is part of the fun.

[Houckster]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I want to add that the Polycharger, so far as my own experience seems to indicate, adds to the depth of finish. I noticed this particularly on my mother's car on which I used Hi-Temp's Terminator sealant. The water beading pattern seemed to be better with beads being much smaller.

With my Ranger (Sonic Blue), I noticed that the color was much more intense both on sunny and cloudy days using M21/Polycharger.

Also, as was pointed out above, Polycharger does make haze removal easier. This is a big advantage with Hi-Temp's Terminator sealant which can be very tough to remove but it's also nice with M21.

For me, Polycharger is a keeper.

[Andy M.]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

Hello everyone!

Guys lets remember that everyone has an opinion and lets face it we all experiment. What works for you and gives you the result you want may not work for someone else.

Houkster if your experiment adding polycharger worked for you and you got the resut you wanted awesome. If others want to try cool!

That being said I respect Tim and his opinion. If you didn't know Tim was one of the guys who started this forum. Well not started it, Meguiars started it, but Tim has been here since the beginning. He was the super moderator for quite a few years and still continues to contribute to our forum. I have asked Tim for advice not only on the forum but in my personal life and everything that he has told me has pretty much worked out for the most part, and as a side note he was the first one that welcomed myself to the forum.

Just don't want this to turn into an argument or flame war about wax. Yes this is not life and death here it is a forum about wax, friendship and sharing the passion that is ours.

Andy M.
MOL Moderator

[Houckster]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I certainly didn't intend my comments to be offensive or combative. I am not interested in starting a flame war. I merely wanted to make it clear that the results of leaving the haze on for a longer period of time did not necessarily lead to the results he predicted and that my experience does not confirm his expectations.

In reading over the second paragraph of my comments, I can see that it is possible to interpret the comment as combative but it was not meant that way and I'll be more careful in the future.

But also . . . the comment about what would happen if I left the sealant unbuffed for 12 hours seems pretty doctrinaire and we don't need that either.

Finally, let's hope the Phillies can turn it around.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: M21 Synthetic Sealant 2.0 - Formula Update

I certainly didn't intend my comments to be offensive or combative. I am not interested in starting a flame war. I merely wanted to make it clear that the results of leaving the haze on for a longer period of time did not necessarily lead to the results he predicted and that my experience does not confirm his expectations.

In reading over the second paragraph of my comments, I can see that it is possible to interpret the comment as combative but it was not meant that way and I'll be more careful in the future.

But also . . . the comment about what would happen if I left the sealant unbuffed for 12 hours seems pretty doctrinaire and we don't need that either.

Finally, let's hope the Phillies can turn it around.

I think you are taking my comments way out of context. I did not say it would streak but rather it could/can also cause streaking.

It is not contentious but rather it is fact. Meguiar's chemists design and test their products and thereby make recommendations to get the best out of that particular product. Since they designed it, tested it etc, they know what is to be expected and how to achieve that goal. Since I am not a chemist, I must relay the information that is given to me by Meguiar's. Moreover, since I was an original tester of BOTH V1 and V2 of M21, I can assure you my comments are based both practical experience as well as comments obtained behind the scenes from Meguiar's management. Just because I spoke with a chemist a few years ago does not make that statement any less valuable. All the information I give is fully up to date as I am in constant contact with Meguiar's management in regards to any product testing etc. If I make a mistake (and that is how I found out about the streaking being caused by leaving it on too long), I am contacted about the error. Meguiar's is very diligent in making sure that all information is as accurate as possible.

In my case, I suggested to a member that they should leave M21 on for an hour if it is humid outside as I found that to work best. I was contacted by a Meguiar's chemist who reminded me that they are the ones who design the products and therefore know what is the correct time frame to get the most out of a product. Because I was the Super Moderator and do test/review Meguiar's products, they did not want me passing along misinformation and for that I totally respect and understand their position. I made an error in judgement by generalizing the product's performance based on *my* experience rather than making the assumption that it may not work that way for other people in other areas of the world.

Now, over time, any company will make 'running changes" as is the case when the Swipe Test was developed to better meet the needs of people living in various conditions. Meguiar's takes great pains in making sure their products are tested all around the world in order to ensure that they perform to the highest standard possible. But no one can assure each and every scenario as that would be impossible.

Also, V1 and V2 are not dramatically different; V2 is an updated product with new features to make it even better. But the foundation of the product, as far as I am aware and have been told, is pretty much the same. NXT 2.0 is not virtually the same as M21 V2.0. While they are quite similar, they are different. Because M21 can be applied with a rotary, differences in lubrication oils etc must be considered. This can affect performance and even the look of the product.

Now with the above said, if a person chooses to use a product outside the recommended guidelines, that is a personal choice. But using it as directed will ensure the person that they will get the best out the product as Meguiar's intended. Does that mean it can not be improved by modifying areas of it for which they were not originally tested? Of course not. Though you have only used the Polycharger once with the M21 and feel confident enough to make a generalized statement, that is up to you. I am certain that Meguiar's would be very happy that you have found a way to make one of their products even better in your eyes. I am in a different position as people come to MOL to read information and reviews that have been time tested and time proven. If I make a mistake, I will definitely correct myself but I have to be accurate as possible.



Tim