another filler question.. i know i know

[Guest]

Another Filler Question... I know I know...

Just to get this out of the way when i say or refer to a filler, i mean an ingredient whose purpose is to hide scratches rather than removing them.

ok so on to my main question, on another forum that i frequent, in a Zaino thread no less, the issue of megs products containing "many fillers" came up. i immediately jumped to action and discredited this claim by providing a link of Mike Phillips polishing his Honda Pilot and then wiping it with APC+ and glass cleaner and dawn soap etc. you ve probably seen the thread.

the person specifies saying that he has polished with 83 and has removed "the fillers" with an IA/water solution. i have done a similar test and found opposite result. i just want to make sure i am educated on this issue. so my question is this:

Which Meguiar's products, if any, use or contain fillers?

in my search, i am pretty sure that 80 does not, NXT does not, and gold class does not. listing every Meguiar's product isn't necessary, just a basic list would be fine. i guess i would like to see the following:

NXT
Gold Class
80
82
83
84
85

thanks to all who participate. it was because of this forum that i was able to fend off the Internet "experts" for as long as i did lol.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: another filler question.. i know i know

Any wax that works fills because it's leaving itself behind, so not sure how anyone that knows what they're talking about could position filling as a negative thing when it comes to wax.

Last week we typed something up about this, probably if you use the search term,

Filler

You can probably find it.


As for any paint correction product, what some people refer to as a filler is just a lack of understanding on their part, for example some of our compounds, paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes contain polishing oils that lubricate the surface to cushion or buffer the abrading process, polishing oils do this better than water which is also a lubricant but there's a difference in how well each type lubricates, for example you use motor oil in your car's engine to lubricate the moving part instead of water, both can be classified as lubricants but which one do you want in your engine.

What some people that get a little on the AR side of discussing product and process forget is that polishing paint is an art form, not just a mechanical process, we choose to use polishing oils to lubricate the surface because we know after over 100 years of proven show car winning results and multiple multiple best of class and best of show first place wins at car shows like the pinnacle of all car shows, the Pebble Beach Concours D'Elegance that our approach works.

If other companies want to take a different approach and people like and want to use their products they're completely welcome to do so.

Each person has to gather their information then make their choice on which brand of products they want to use to remove defects, polish the paint to a high gloss and then protect it with a wax or paint sealant.

But just because you read some derogatory remark about fillers doesn't mean the person that made it knows what they are talking about or has your best interest at heart.

If you want a defect free, high gloss, show car shine, do your research and the choose your products, we'll take comfort in our long history of satisfied customers and our bright future as we move forward that our products will outperform the competition when ti comes to creating swirl-free, show car finishes.

On a personal note, if I though there was a better and more complete product line on the market I would seek them out for a job, but I haven't found a better or more complete product line. When you invest the kind of time it takes to wet-sand, cut and polish a show car finish, or restore an original single stage finish or even work on your daily driver, you want to get professional results the first time and every time.

There is no time and especially no profit in doing a job a second time, in my live Meguiar's has never let me or my customer's down, I've never had to do a job a second time.

As you read the various posts by the various personalties on different forums, remember what they claim and if your experience doesn't match what they proclaim then remember them and their words and give them all the respect they deserve.

That said... there is no list by Meguiar's as to which products contain fillers... it's a word game played by people that often times have a bias, an agenda or an axe to grind.

That's why this signature line works for every reply to every post we make...


"Find something you like and use it often"

If you like it, then you obviously like how it applies and removes and it looks good in your eyes, if you use it often your car's paint will always look new because it's only when paint is neglected that it goes down hill.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: another filler question.. i know i know

Here's the thread where we did our best to explain in detail about the topic of fillers as they pertain to waxes, to date no one has ever argued against it and proven it wrong.

Tell me about #66.......

Our comments start on page 3, here's the pertinent section...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maz Gday Mike, Fillers are the combination of ingredients that when applied onto the surface hide minor swirls or at least reduce them.

Any wax or paint sealant that works, that is any wax that leaves itself behind to protect the paint, (and isn't that the purpose of wax or a paint sealant, synthetic or otherwise, to leave itself behind?), is going to fill because it's coating over and bonding to the paint.

Thus any wax that works fills.
(You can quote us on that)

So how does anyone know except the chemist that made the product what combination of ingredients are actually staying behind on the surface?

All to often the word fillers is thrown pretty loosely and often times in a negative context. Believe it or not some people think if a wax fills that's a bad thing and that's because they don't understand that's one effect of a wax, (or paint sealant), doing it's job.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: another filler question.. i know i know

just to get this out of the way when i say or refer to a filler, i mean an ingredient whose purpose is to hide scratches rather than removing them.

This is the key now, isn't it?

I know that all of Meguiar's cleaner/polishes contain a diminishing abrasive that is designed to remove fine swirls, scratches, etc. But that doesn't automatically mean that the product lacks the ability to also simply hide them. I have no doubt that if you didn't use these products properly and to their full extent some hiding of defects would occur. But if you do use them correctly they will remove defects, proven by the fact that a water/alcohol wipe down to remove any traces of product will reveal a defect free finish. So, are there any ingredients in these products whose purpose is to hide defects rather than remove them? I sort of doubt it as that is not the purpose of the product itself. Unlike, for example, Z-5 PRO Show Car Polish about which Zaino themselves say:

Thanks to its advanced, non-abrasive, micro-filler polymer technology, Z-5 PRO fills and hides minor surface imperfections even better than before

As for waxes/sealants like NXT, Gold Class, etc I have seen with my own eyes their varying ability to hide very, very fine defects. But virtually any wax or sealant will do so whether it's actually designed to or not. One can only assume those designed to do so will do a better job of it.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: another filler question.. i know i know

I have no doubt that if you didn't use these products properly and to their full extent some hiding of defects would occur.

This is correct, if a product isn't used correctly, a side effect of the product is that it can fill defects that were not removed. That doesn't mean this was the intended purpose of the product even though some people will try to make that case either intentionally or because they just don't understand the polishing process.

Sometimes if a product is used correctly you can still have a filling effect but this doesn't mean the product didn't work, it's likely an indicator that a more aggressive product needs to be used.

For example some people have tried to remove swirls using #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 only to have not been able to remove the swirls. The label says "Swirl Remover", so they think it should remove the swirls, what they don't understand is that this product is a swirl remover but it's also a light cleaner/polish, (relative to our other cleaner/polishes), and it's limited to fine or shallow swirls, not the kind of heavy compounding swirls left by an old school compound applied using a rotary buffer by a guy named Bubba.

I actually had a guy call me one time and asked me if #9 would remove the swirls he left in an aluminum tanker truck after he buffed out the aluminum using a course compound, (3M 05955 Super Duty Rubbing Compound, which is a very aggressive compound), with a wool pad on a rotary buffer.

The answer was "no", the aluminum is too hard and the #9 is too gentle.

So anytime you read where a person didn't get the swirls out using a product it could be that the product wasn't the right tool for the job, not that the product wouldn't work when used for the appropriate job.

That's where experience comes in...

[joebennz]

Re: another filler question.. i know i know

I'd like to thank both of you very much for your time and effort in getting back to me with such a detailed response. i was essentially making a similar argument and i even quoted you, mike, on two separate occasions about two issues. i didnt want to continue the discussion without being able to better articulate my point. basically put, i knew what i wanted to say, but wasnt sure how to explain it to make other understand it.

if you would like to see the threads, they are here:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=141895

and the thread i started quoting mike about filliers is here:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=142398

again thank you for sharing your knowledge with me. i will be sure to pass it on as best i can to as many people i can who are willing to listen.

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