Any wax that works fills to some degree

[Mike Phillips]

Any wax that works fills to some degree

The topic of waxes and filling comes up often enough that it deserves it's own thread in Hot Topics to help remove any confusion. Most of the confusion can be found on other forums where someone is trying to make the case that any wax that fill is a bad thing.

That's convoluted thinking and it would be interesting to see how someone could explain how a wax or a paint sealant can leave its protection ingredients behind on the surface and not fill or coat over at the same time?

You see, any wax or paint sealant that works, that is any wax or paint sealant that leaves itself behind to protect the paint, (and isn't that the purpose of wax or a paint sealant, to leave itself behind?), is going to fill, (at least to some level), because it's coating over and bonding or adhering to the paint.

This being true, and so far no one has ever proved it's not true, then if a wax or paint sealant is really working then it's filling to some degree because it's leaving itself behind on the surface and thus coating over the surface and filling in low areas.

Conversely, any wax or paint sealant that's not leaving itself behind is not filling and thus it's not working and if this is the case it's time to quit using that product and move on to a product that's actually working.

"Any wax that works fills to some degree"

That doesn't mean the purpose of a wax is to fill as the purpose of a quality wax or paint sealant is to protect, filling is just a physical characteristic of how it protects.

Anytime you find yourself on another forum and someone is trying to convince you or others that a wax that fills is a bad thing, then share the link to this thread with them and see if they can make their case that what is written here is wrong. In other words see if they can make the case that a wax or paint sealant that doesn't leave itself behind is actually working, that is it's actually doing what it's supposed to be doing.


Hope this clears up any confusion...

[TH0001]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

All I know is that some sealants seem to amplify defects (Klasse, Werkstatt and Zaino come to mind) and given that all three dramatically increase the slickness and dramatically increase water beading (surface tension) for several months (which proves that they are there) I don't know if I would agree with your post Mike.

Perhaps our definition of filling is different. Techanically anywax or sealant will fill the paint (in terms of linking or anchoring into the pours of the paint) but I am refering to "masking" or hiding light defects in the paint. In terms of this defintion I can easily say from experience that the sealants I mentioned above amplify defects and make then easier to spot, but are absolutly leaving something behind.

I have noticed slight filling from sealants with a heavy oil based sealant and carnauba waxes, but on products such as these the durability falls off considerably.

NXT, for example, definetly fills and masks defects (I believe it uses oils and kalinon clay) and I think that is a great thing. However, NXT (and NXT 2.0) does not have near the durablity of the other sealants. Infact, I personally have yet to seen a sealant that masks defects have more then a month or two of durablity.

So when somebody says that products designed to fill can be a bad thing, in my experience, they would be talking about the shortened durablity.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

All I know is that some sealants seem to amplify defects (Klasse, Werkstatt and Zaino come to mind) and given that all three dramatically increase the slickness and dramatically increase water beading (surface tension) for several months (which proves that they are there) I don't know if I would agree with your post Mike.

Well maybe we can agree that some waxes don't fill very well or another way of saying this is the coatings they leave behind aren't very thick?

I've actually found Klasse SG to mask swirls pretty well. Haven't tried the Werkstatt product. If layering were possible, then Zaino should be masking swirls really well after a few layers, that is if it's actually building up a layer.

Edit: In thinking about previous experience and experimenting on clear coated black paint, I found a couple coats of the Z2 product to mask swirls pretty good too.

[yalerd]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

or another way of saying this is the coatings they leave behind aren't very thick?

Mike seeing it on this perspective, then is the durability of a wax and this physical characteristic of filling to some degree go by the hand?

Did I ask it correctly?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Mike seeing it on this perspective, then is the durability of a wax and this physical characteristic of filling to some degree go by the hand?

Did I ask it correctly?

Machine application of a wax tends to do a better job of laying down a thin layer of wax but whether by hand or machine the goal when appling a wax or paint sealant is to lay down a thin coating this being true it shouldn't matter how the wax is applied.

Did that answer your question?

[RaskyR1]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

All I know is that some sealants seem to amplify defects (Klasse, Werkstatt and Zaino come to mind) and given that all three dramatically increase the slickness and dramatically increase water beading (surface tension) for several months (which proves that they are there) I don't know if I would agree with your post Mike.

Perhaps our definition of filling is different. Techanically anywax or sealant will fill the paint (in terms of linking or anchoring into the pours of the paint) but I am refering to "masking" or hiding light defects in the paint. In terms of this defintion I can easily say from experience that the sealants I mentioned above amplify defects and make then easier to spot, but are absolutly leaving something behind.

I have noticed slight filling from sealants with a heavy oil based sealant and carnauba waxes, but on products such as these the durability falls off considerably.

NXT, for example, definetly fills and masks defects (I believe it uses oils and kalinon clay) and I think that is a great thing. However, NXT (and NXT 2.0) does not have near the durablity of the other sealants. Infact, I personally have yet to seen a sealant that masks defects have more then a month or two of durablity.

So when somebody says that products designed to fill can be a bad thing, in my experience, they would be talking about the shortened durablity.

Would you rather have a wax that amplifies the defects or hides them? If your not going to take the time to remove the defects in the paint than I would asume you would want a wax that can make the paint look it's best...not one that points out it's flaws.

Quote from Zaino...
And we guarantee that it's been worth the wait. Z-5 PRO represents the summit of modern paint care and protection technology, and boasts more shine, more gloss, more depth, more clarity, greater reflectivity, and improved swirl-hiding properties. All of which deliver increased performance over our already incredible Z-5 Show Car Polish.



Nice write up Mike!

[Ryan L.]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

So if the wax "fills to some degree" then a car with more swirls (more things to fill) will actually accept that wax better than a swirl free car? I know that the wax should adhere but does there come a point in time were a car is so smooth with nothing to fill in that you just spreading the liquid across the paint?

Ryan

[RaskyR1]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

So if the wax "fills to some degree" then a car with more swirls (more things to fill) will actually accept that wax better than a swirl free car? I know that the wax should adhere but does there come a point in time were a car is so smooth with nothing to fill in that you just spreading the liquid across the paint?

Ryan

Have you even seen paint under a magnifying glass? Trust me it's not smooth even though it may feel that way!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

So when somebody says that products designed to fill can be a bad thing, in my experience, they would be talking about the shortened durability.

That could be, what I noticed is there's just a lot of confusion on this topic, (and I know because the topic comes up enough to create this article and post it to "Hot Topics"), and some of the confusion leaves people thinking that somehow a wax or paint sealant is supposed to protect the paint but somehow not leave anything on the surface which is kind of impossible.

That could be because many posts or replies by people are short snippets instead of in-depth explanations of the idea they're trying to get across. You do a really good job of typing well-thought out posts but my guess is you would agree that most people on discussion forums tend to be shorty copy writers versus long copy writers not that long copy is a good thing but a thorough explanation of an idea, opinion or concept is valuable to the reader trying to gather information.

[TH0001]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

That could be, what I noticed is there's just a lot of confusion on this topic, (and I know because the topic comes up enough to create this article and post it to "Hot Topics"), and some of the confusion leaves people thinking that somehow a wax or paint sealant is supposed to protect the paint but somehow not leave anything on the surface which is kind of impossible.

That could be because many posts or replies by people are short snippets instead of in-depth explanations of the idea they're trying to get across. You do a really good job of typing well-thought out posts but my guess is you would agree that most people on discussion forums tend to be shorty copy writers versus long copy writers not that long copy is a good thing but a thorough explanation of an idea, opinion or concept is valuable to the reader trying to gather information.

I would say that most information that people type isn't based on experience but rather like "Chinese Telephone" where somebody elses opinion is stated as fact, over and over (each time changing a little) till a bunch of people believe something that they have never experienced.

FWIW I would always choose a product that fills over one that doesn't if durability is the same.

[TH0001]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Would you rather have a wax that amplifies the defects or hides them? If your not going to take the time to remove the defects in the paint than I would asume you would want a wax that can make the paint look it's best...not one that points out it's flaws.

Quote from Zaino...
And we guarantee that it's been worth the wait. Z-5 PRO represents the summit of modern paint care and protection technology, and boasts more shine, more gloss, more depth, more clarity, greater reflectivity, and improved swirl-hiding properties. All of which deliver increased performance over our already incredible Z-5 Show Car Polish.



Nice write up Mike!

I personally think you tend to get a different look with certain products that some people may or may not enjoy. I love the look and durability of Zaino, but amongst the professional detailers whom I speak to regularly that use it, we laugh because it is one of those products that will show how well you can actually polish a paint job.

I have never seen any filling/masking from Z5pro, despite the marketing. I try my best to go on experience. In being very general, clearer and brighter sealants tend to show more defects (or amplify ones that are there).

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

I would say that most information that people type isn't based on experience but rather like "Chinese Telephone" where somebody else's opinion is stated as fact, over and over (each time changing a little) till a bunch of people believe something that they have never experienced.

Good observation... how about a new term...

"Copy & Paste Expert"

Not a hands-on expert, but a person with the ability to search, copy and paste on-the-fly, (without giving credit to the OP).

Or

"Professional Paraphraser"

[yalerd]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Machine application of a wax tends to do a better job of laying down a thin layer of wax but whether by hand or machine the goal when appling a wax or paint sealant is to lay down a thin coating this being true it shouldn't matter how the wax is applied.

Did that answer your question?

No.

What I mean is you said that because of a physical characteristic of the wax to leave itself behind and because of this it fills to some degree then is the durability of the wax and how much of itself is left behind go hand to hand, like they are together.

For Example, NXT 2.0 is one of the most durable waxes of Meguiar's, so does this means that because of the durability of it this fills to some degree more than other waxes? More durable more fill?

I really don't want to take this off topic or confuse, it's not my intention but just go curious about it.

Anyways this is what I'm trying to say, I don't know if I'm making myself clear

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

TH0001, your observations with Zaino highlighting minor defects is interesting since it is, as has been pointed out, completely opposite of their own marketing. There are several places on Zaino's website where they tout the benefits of their products defect hiding ability.

"Thanks to its advanced, non-abrasive, micro-filler polymer technology, Z-5 PRO fills and hides minor surface imperfections even better than before "

This is nothing more than an observation and we certainly have no reason to doubt what you're saying. It's just interesting that your real world observations run contrary to the manufacturers repeated claims.

No.

What I mean is you said that because of a physical characteristic of the wax to leave itself behind and because of this it fills to some degree then is the durability of the wax and how much of itself is left behind go hand to hand, like they are together.

For Example, NXT 2.0 is one of the most durable waxes of Meguiar's, so does this means that because of the durability of it this fills to some degree more than other waxes? More durable more fill?

I really don't want to take this off topic or confuse, it's not my intention but just go curious about it.

Anyways this is what I'm trying to say, I don't know if I'm making myself clear

It sounds like you're asking "does increased filling ability go hand in hand with longevity?", right? Certainly some waxes/sealants are more effective at hiding (filling) defects than others are; just as some waxes/sealants last longer than others do. But do the properties that offer a longer life also contribute to more effective defect concealment? The reality is most likely - it depends. In some cases they likely do, in others probably not.

Consider the glazes so often used by body shops to conceal buffer trails after a fresh paint job. Many of these do an incredible job of filling/concealing defects but they don't last long at all. While these glazes certainly don't fall into the same category as waxes/sealants since they offer no protection, they certainly show that hiding ability and longevity do not necessarily go hand in hand.

[yalerd]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

It sounds like you're asking "does increased filling ability go hand in hand with longevity?", right?

This is what exactly I was to ask. Thanks Mike

Consider the glazes so often used by body shops to conceal buffer trails after a fresh paint job. Many of these do an incredible job of filling/concealing defects but they don't last long at all. While these glazes certainly don't fall into the same category as waxes/sealants since they offer no protection, they certainly show that hiding ability and longevity do not necessarily go hand in hand.

When I ask the question I wasn't thinking on glazes, just focused on waxes but know that you mention glazes then I guess in some cases they go hand in hand and some times they don't

Mike thanks