Problems with M80

[Pablo]

Hi!
Today I had some bad results using the M80 with W8000.
The car was a black VW Jetta-bora 06-07 with 10k miles. Its a car that the customer brings weekly to wash. I use the Meguiars wash mitt, nxt car wash and then nxt tech wax or maybe some #26.
Today, the customer brought the car to polish and to obtain a flawless finish.
I started with the M80-w8000 and low speed on the rotary buffer and when I removed the product with the microfiber, the result was like buffered. I did the same thing to the fender and a door and it was exactly the same buffered result. I also tried a bit of clay bar, and then use the m80 and it was the same result.
Unfortunately I couldn´t take any picture.
I´m surprised with the bad results.
How can I solve the problem?? Is it the wax that its reguarly applied??
The wrong shampoo to remove anything and leave the surface clean??
I NEED HELP! PLEASE!

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Problems with M80

Hey,

What do you mean by "buffered"? Are you referring to holograms or buffer induced marring and swirls? Did you buff the car in the sun or the shade? Was the surface temperature very high? Also, what speeds did you use? Was it a clean W-8006/W-8000 pad???

If it is the above, there are normally two causes: Buffing technique or scratch sensitive paint.

Some paints are very scratch sensitive, meaning they swirl easily. The solution is to use a lighter, less aggressive product and or method of application. I have dealt with some paints that are so sensitive that even M09 with a W-9006 Finishing Pad left marring. In those situations, I may have to use a product like Meguiar's M66 Quick Detailer with a DA polisher. In your case, it depends again on the paint. Try a lighter polish like M09 or M82 and a W-9006 Finishing pad.

How were you working the M80? Did you work it until dry or was it is still slightly moist when removing with a MF towel?

Hopefully we can sort for you.

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Problems with M80

Hi!

I started with the M80-w8000 and low speed on the rotary buffer and when I removed the product with the microfiber, the result was like buffered.

M80 doesn't alway finish out on clear coat paints very well when used as your last polishing step with a rotary buffer. You also don't want to finish off with a rotary buffer as your last tool for polishing as rotary buffers tend to leave holograms or swirls in and of themselves from just the fact that you have a material rotating against the paint, that's why a lot of people switch to a dual action type machine after the last rotary buffer step to re-polish the paint to insure there are not swirls. Then go to wax.

If you're going to use a rotary buffer as your last tool and procedure before going to wax then you're going to want to finish using a "Finishing Pad", not a polishing pad and use a much less aggressive cleaner/polish like M82 or M09

Also, before ever doing and entire car... do a "TEST SPOT" to one small area and then inspect your results and make sure it's looking GREAT before going over the entire car. This can save you a lot of time if in fact the product you think you want to use isn't working to your expectations on the paint system you're working on.

Make sense?

There's 2-3 exhausting threads in the Hot Topics forum that discuss holograms or Buffer Swirls and the Rotary Buffer, give them a read through also and then you'll be completely up to speed with what can and cannot be done with a rotary buffer on clear coat paints.

[TH0001]

Re: Problems with M80

What was your goal with M80? To remove swirls or increase the gloss?

You have to have a "plan" (which is often developed on the fly, FWIW) to using the least aggressive method to achieve the results you are after.

To me, it seems paint is getting harder and harder, and requires more aggressive steps to fully correct.

Also keep in mind that NXT does "mask" or "fill" defects rather well, so it is completely possible to actually polish paint, remove the fillers and oils and be left with a surface that looks worse then when you began.

In this thread I wrote on autopia, I had the same effect. The car was new Ferrari F430 that look "ok". Wiping the paint with a solvent quickly removed the LSP and revealed the true condition of the paint. This is why I recommend always wiping the paint with alcohol or prep-solvent prior to polishing. A thorough inspection is key into the making a diagnosis, the same as a doctor will run a battery of tests to before working on a treatement plan.

Here is the link to the thread...

http://www.autopia.org/forum/click-brag/107076-2008-ferrari-f430-rosso-corsa-presented-bella-macchina.html

So lets look at a plan of attack, and IMO it can be broken down into 3 very seperate steps and goals... I will keep this discussion in line with Meguiars products to make it more benefical to the forum.

Compounding/Damage Removal: In this step the goal is to simply remove the defects. Keep in mind that this step will also induce more marring into the paint, so you have to learn to "see" the previous damage through the damage or haze you will create.

Use a rotary polisher at moderate to high RPM (1500-2000) and the least aggressive compound you can (in order from least to most aggressive) M84/M85/M95/M105 with the least aggressive pad (least to most aggressive) 7000/Yellow Solo Wool/Full Wool pads (5000/4000/So1o Maroon).

The compound and pad you choose is going to be based on the depth of defects, the hardness of the paint, and what you are comfortable with. To get modern paint perfect usually requires a fairly aggressive first step and may require more then several passes of the aggressive step to truely remove all the defects. Do not rush this step as any thing that is so deep that doesn't come out will not come out in the succedding steps.

After compounding the paint and ensuring all defects are removed you are reading to move to the second step. Remember that the paint may have a haze, buffer trails, or wool marring and might even look worse then when you started.

Polishing/Refinement

In this stage the goal is to remove the damage left by the compounding step and increase the gloss of the paint. You should take your time and make sure to break the polish down completely and try to finish the paint as close to LSP ready as possible to ensure the longest lasting results. Also on cars with light wash induced marring, you may not have to go more aggressive then this step.

In general you will start your RPM's higher (1500 or so) and after breaking the polish down, it is wise to reduce RPM to 1000 or so and lightly burnish the paint to take it to the highest possible level. This step is very important if you are going to finish with a rotary, because you will want the last step to focus solely on pad abrasion and hologram removal.

M83/M80 are great polishes that "catch" the marring from the previous step and remove it, while bringing the finish to near LSP ready. However, as you found out, if the defects are deep, they will not remove more severe defects. Always use the least aggressive polish for the job and most times M80 will do a great job. However on harder paints you may need to step up M83. That is why it is important to inspect the paint after each step to make sure you heading in the correct direction.

With Meguiars' pads you are limited to the 8000 series or So1o Diamond Cut polishing pad. Again the goal is to bring to the paint to near LSP ready, though don't worry about "light" hologramming or micromarring in the paint. Work the polish long enough to break it down and ensure the paint is at the highest level it can be at the end of this step.

You are now ready for the final step.

Final Jeweling/Gloss

You have serveral options in the Meguiars' line up. If you elect to go with a rotary polisher you are going to need a non mechanical pad (Meguiars 7000 finishing or my favorite Meguiars So1o finishing pad) and a refinement polish (M80/M82/M09). On harder paints M80 will work fine, on softer paints or to be safe you can use a milder polish such as M09.

If you did the previous step correctly, the goal here is not to remove any defects but to refine the finish and burnish out any light hologramming in the paint. Start with low to moderate rpms (1000-1500) and work the polish with slight pressure before reducing the rpm and smoothly polishing and refining the surface. Make sure you work the polish for a long enough time to completely fracture the abrasives (usually a minute or more). Remember with a non mechanical finishing pad the polish will be much slower to break down.

If you are going to use a DA (PC 7242/7336; G100/G110; UDM) you can use a pad with slight mechanical action such as a 8000 series polishing pad. The stiffer pad will compliment reduced power of the DA (on a rotary you should finish with a finishing pad). On softer paints you may still need a non mechanical pad, but expect to spend 3-5 minutes fully breaking the polish down in this case. I have seen M83/M80/M82/M09 all finish out very nice with a DA. You should not need M83 if you did the preivous step correctly and you risk introducing light marring into the paint by using it (however on hard paints such as a C5/C6 Corvette it will work great).

Hope I helped.

[TH0001]

Re: Problems with M80

Also IME VW paint is rather hard. I am being general and have seen enough paint's fall outside of the norm so you never truely know until you work on it. If the paint is harder (as typical VW) then M80 is not going to really remove any defects other then light swirls.

If it is very soft paint (not typical for VW but not out of the question either) then M80 is going to far too aggressive to finish on a rotary with a mechanical pad.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Problems with M80

Nice post Todd!

Hopefully Pablo can utilize all the suggestions here to remedy the car in a way to make the customer happy and not only retain the customer but also make a profit from his hard work.

[Pablo]

Re: Problems with M80

WOW thanks everyone for great answers.
What I meant with buffered was that the M80 left marring. I did a test spot to evealuate, and it was there when I swa the marring on the surface.
I completely forgot that I could use the M09. The thin is that I only have the w8000 to use, I also have the w7000 and the wool pad but they are absolutely unuseful on these car.
I used a very low speed.
The paint its very sensitive.
I will try to get a dual action polisher form USA. And also make a test spot with the M09.
I promess some pics as soon as the customer brings the car back.
Thanks everyone!