Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

So the reason why people apply finishing polishes after using abrasive polishes is because they are "filling" in the scratches that the abrasive polish left behind?

No, you follow a harsh/compound/polish with a medium or fine polish as it is a step less aggressive and it abrades away the rough surface from the previous step, leaving behind smaller scratches...sometimes so small you can not see them (with fine polishes).

Have you ever worked with wood and sandpaper? It is common to start with an abrasive sandpaper such as 80 grit (meaning 80 particles that cut per square inch), which takes lots of wood out with each pass, but leaves many scratches. Next, you would follow with something like 120 grit, then 220, 440, etc until you reach a finish that is suitable for your tastes and application.

Same concept applies to paint. You start with more aggressive products and work your way back down to fine products that leave the finish smooth and glossy.

Is that also the purpose of the finishing polish - to fill in the cut?

Again, to clarify, a finishing polish IS an abrasive product, albeit very gentle. It is intended to remove fine scratches, leaving such fine scratches that you will not see them at all, but instead see a flawless and glossy finish.

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

No, you follow a harsh/compound/polish with a medium or fine polish as it is a step less aggressive and it abrades away the rough surface from the previous step, leaving behind smaller scratches...sometimes so small you can not see them (with fine polishes).

Have you ever worked with wood and sandpaper? It is common to start with an abrasive sandpaper such as 80 grit (meaning 80 particles that cut per square inch), which takes lots of wood out with each pass, but leaves many scratches. Next, you would follow with something like 120 grit, then 220, 440, etc until you reach a finish that is suitable for your tastes and application.

Same concept applies to paint. You start with more aggressive products and work your way back down to fine products that leave the finish smooth and glossy.




Again, to clarify, a finishing polish IS an abrasive product, albeit very gentle. It is intended to remove fine scratches, leaving such fine scratches that you will not see them at all, but instead see a flawless and glossy finish.

Thanks Mark, but I've heard people say to use the least abrasive compound first to see if that will remove the swirl. If not, move up to more abrasive. I'm confused by these 2 concepts.

edit: I understand now after thinking about the sand papers.

[Murr1525]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

It is possible for an agressive product/pad, if it is needed, to leave some marks of its own behind. So at that point, you can step back down to a milder polish/pad to leave a perfect surface.

So that is one reason to stay as mild as possible. Some people jump into removing scratches with a brillo pad.... The main scratch might go away, but a lot will be left to clean up with milder products.

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Same concept applies to paint. You start with more aggressive products and work your way back down to fine products that leave the finish smooth and glossy.

Mark, if you do this, then wouldn't you risk the chance of removing too much paint when it wasn't necessary?

It is possible for an agressive product/pad, if it is needed, to leave some marks of its own behind. So at that point, you can step back down to a milder polish/pad to leave a perfect surface.

So that is one reason to stay as mild as possible. Some people jump into removing scratches with a brillo pad.... The main scratch might go away, but a lot will be left to clean up with milder products.

Ah. I will search and gather information about pad & polish combos.



Oh and also, are the consumer products intended for use by hand or DA while professional is for rotary? I've got a PC7424 so I think going with the professional line would be more beneficial?

[Murr1525]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Think of it as a pyramid... you only need to work your way up as far as necessary to remove the swirls, then you may or may not have to work your way back down.

Here is an older link for the PC.... a few new products, but the basics still apply.

Recommended Products - G100a Dual Action Polisher

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

Each one, teach one... Ferrari Fiorano 355 F1 Spider

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Mark, if you do this, then wouldn't you risk the chance of removing too much paint when it wasn't necessary?

Yes, in theory you do. I could answer this question, but I think this would be better off being answered by Mike tomorrow for liability and technical reasons. But, in a nutshell, know that there are ways to know how much paint can be safely removed.

Thanks Mark, but I've heard people say to use the least abrasive compound first to see if that will remove the swirl.

Yes, this is true. I think you were confusing two concepts into one. You always want to use the least aggressive method possible (ie least aggressive first), BUT when you find that you do in fact need an aggressive product you will use a reverse order of most down to least aggressive in order to A.) Remove the defect, and B.) Restore a high-gloss and defect free finish.

This help?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Lots of questions usually means learning is taking place... that's a good thing. Before answering any more questions though, where are you with this statement you made on page 1 of this thread,

I want to permanently remove swirl marks/scratches and prefer to use non-abrasive products

Have you accepted that what you wrote isn't possible?
(No matter whose products you're using?)

[Bert31]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Thanks Mark, but I've heard people say to use the least abrasive compound first to see if that will remove the swirl. If not, move up to more abrasive. I'm confused by these 2 concepts.

edit: I understand now after thinking about the sand papers.

The sand paper anology is very good for how polishing to refinement works.

As far as the least aggressive method and working your way down to a finer polish are two different aspects.

You want to start out with the least aggressive method because you never want to remove more clear coat (or paint if the car is single stage) than neccessary. Let's take an Infinity or a Honda with moderate swirling for example. I have heard both of those lines use extremely soft clear coats. Due to their soft clears, you may be able to remove the swirling with a mild cut product like 83 with a Meg's polishing pad which I believe is the yellow pad. If that is not strong enough, you can always move up a step in the cut of the polish or the pad. You will generally want to figure this out on a test spot, not do the entire car and then say, "Woops, not strong enough, I need to do the car over again with a stronger product".

However, let's say you ignored the least aggressive method and went with a rotary armed with coarse wool and M105 (stongest compound I know of). While that combo would get rid of the swirls, it could also remove FAR more clear than you needed to. Like I said above, you can always move up the cut ladder and remove more clear but once have you removed the clear, its gone and if you removed too much you can't do anything about it. So you want to start rather mild and work your way up to whatever combo gets rid of the swirling which is basically using the least aggressive method.

Now, you have figured out what combo you needed to remove the swirling. After going over the entire car, it will look better but a combination that was strong enough to remove swirls was probably strong enough to leave light hazing on the paint so you will want to step down. If you were using M83 or M84 on a cutting pad, you will probably want to slide down to M80 on a polishing pad. The smaller abrasives and more gentle pad will clean up that hazing and leave nicer fininsh. If M80 on the polishing pad was strong enough to correct your paint (because it is very soft) then maybe M80 on the finishing pad will clean up nicely afterwards. The other guys on this thread can probably help you find the right combo better than I can but you should get the idea.

The difficulty you have now is figuring out what products to start off with. In a perfect world where money is not an object to you, you would buy a finishing, polishing, and cutting pad and about 3 - 4 different polishes to make sure you have all your bases covered. The problem is, I am assuming money is an object and you don't want to buy something you may not even need. So my suggestion is to start on the lighter side because you will need those eventually anyways. For example get a polishing pad and one or two polishes like 80 and 83. Will those remove your swirling? Possibly but at the bare minimum they will "improve" the swirling and give you paint a glossier look. If those products don't completely remove the swirls then down the road you can buy a stronger polish and pad to attack those swirls more adequately with and because you used a stronger pad and polish, you will need to clean that work up with the milder polish and pad you already have. Make sense?

In a way, you are doing a pyramid. You are going higher until you find the product combo that removes swirling and then you come down to refine the paint. How high up depends on how hard the clear (or paint if single stage) is.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

I have a San Marino Blue (Dark Blue) 350z (I think 350z has thin paint) and from my inexperience in car washing, I had put swirl marks on it.

Like this,

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Lots of questions usually means learning is taking place... that's a good thing. Before answering any more questions though, where are you with this statement you made on page 1 of this thread,



Have you accepted that what you wrote isn't possible?
(No matter whose products you're using?)

Morning Mike. Yeah, I found out that it's not possible with non-abrasive polishes after hearing some answers from page 1 & 2.

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

The sand paper anology is very good for how polishing to refinement works.

As far as the least aggressive method and working your way down to a finer polish are two different aspects.

You want to start out with the least aggressive method because you never want to remove more clear coat (or paint if the car is single stage) than neccessary. Let's take an Infinity or a Honda with moderate swirling for example. I have heard both of those lines use extremely soft clear coats. Due to their soft clears, you may be able to remove the swirling with a mild cut product like 83 with a Meg's polishing pad which I believe is the yellow pad. If that is not strong enough, you can always move up a step in the cut of the polish or the pad. You will generally want to figure this out on a test spot, not do the entire car and then say, "Woops, not strong enough, I need to do the car over again with a stronger product".

However, let's say you ignored the least aggressive method and went with a rotary armed with coarse wool and M105 (stongest compound I know of). While that combo would get rid of the swirls, it could also remove FAR more clear than you needed to. Like I said above, you can always move up the cut ladder and remove more clear but once have you removed the clear, its gone and if you removed too much you can't do anything about it. So you want to start rather mild and work your way up to whatever combo gets rid of the swirling which is basically using the least aggressive method.

Now, you have figured out what combo you needed to remove the swirling. After going over the entire car, it will look better but a combination that was strong enough to remove swirls was probably strong enough to leave light hazing on the paint so you will want to step down. If you were using M83 or M84 on a cutting pad, you will probably want to slide down to M80 on a polishing pad. The smaller abrasives and more gentle pad will clean up that hazing and leave nicer fininsh. If M80 on the polishing pad was strong enough to correct your paint (because it is very soft) then maybe M80 on the finishing pad will clean up nicely afterwards. The other guys on this thread can probably help you find the right combo better than I can but you should get the idea.

The difficulty you have now is figuring out what products to start off with. In a perfect world where money is not an object to you, you would buy a finishing, polishing, and cutting pad and about 3 - 4 different polishes to make sure you have all your bases covered. The problem is, I am assuming money is an object and you don't want to buy something you may not even need. So my suggestion is to start on the lighter side because you will need those eventually anyways. For example get a polishing pad and one or two polishes like 80 and 83. Will those remove your swirling? Possibly but at the bare minimum they will "improve" the swirling and give you paint a glossier look. If those products don't completely remove the swirls then down the road you can buy a stronger polish and pad to attack those swirls more adequately with and because you used a stronger pad and polish, you will need to clean that work up with the milder polish and pad you already have. Make sense?

In a way, you are doing a pyramid. You are going higher until you find the product combo that removes swirling and then you come down to refine the paint. How high up depends on how hard the clear (or paint if single stage) is.

Thanks so much Bert. I understand the concept now. VERY VERY VERY VERY CLEAR! A++++++++++++++

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Like this,

Yep, except it's more bluish (I added contrast in that picture). In fact, that is my car Mike .

By the way, how did that picture get on here? Just wondering because my friend took it, so I'm not sure if he gave it to you guys as customer vehicle or ...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

By the way, how did that picture get on here? Just wondering because my friend took it, so I'm not sure if he gave it to you guys as customer vehicle or ...

Found it here http://www.the370z.com/

Like I posted previously, I've been on the Internet for a while...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Good explanation bert31

We don't recommend using a cutting pad or M84 with a DA Polisher but the principals you outlined are dead on.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

(Also will be my first time detailing, but I'm sure this is no problem for me).

Are you working by hand or machine?

If machine, which type?