R & D Question for Mike Phillips or other Meguiar's Technical People

[Setec Astronomy]

We're all Meguiar's brothers (and sisters) here, and product comparisons don't get too ugly here, but on some other forums, the product wars DO get downright ugly. It has occurred to me that we laymen really can only do a subjective analysis of "wax" durability, which makes some of the acrimony on other sites pretty ludicrous.

Obviously, the chemists must do some sort of objective comparison when developing products, to know if they are making improvements.

Might you be able to let us in on how this is done? Since it has been stated that the remaining product on the surface after buff-off might be almost atoms thick, this sounds like a tough job.

Many people use water beading as an indicator, but it has been stated that some Meguiar's products (and others) tend to sheet rather than bead, so this wouldn't be a good indicator.

Just wondering.

[Bill D]

An expensive glossometer can be used to measure just that between products.

Bud Abraham of Detailplus.com did a comparison of LSPs in a manner similar to how you outlined.

As for polishes and compounds, I'd like to know how they are objectively analyzed and confirmed improved as well.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: R & D Question for Mike Phillips or other Meguiar's Technical People

Originally posted by Setec Astronomy
We're all Meguiar's brothers (and sisters) here, and product comparisons don't get too ugly here, but on some other forums, the product wars DO get downright ugly.

There seems to be at least three things that really bring the passion out of people,

• * Politics
  * Religion
  * Car Wax

Strange I know, true none the less. While Meguiar's Online discussion forum is not open for discussions on politics and religion, (not that the people at Meguiar's are not actively involved in both, but because the theme for this forum is to discuss the the topic car care), asking questions about how waxes and other products are tested, evaluated and improved is fair game. That is, you can ask questions, but I can't guarantee you that I can get you any answers. R&D is pretty secretive, not just with the public, but with employees as well. As far as I know, there are no other wax companies openly sharing anything about their formulas, testing, ingredients, technology, etc. It's just not how this industry works, it never has, and it probably never will.

I know at least one of the chemists regularly reads this forum and others, he has never posted to any detailing forum however. He just reads and sometimes asks me questions about some of the topics that others find interesting.

Just wondering.

And there is nothing wrong with that, I'm always wondering too and I work for the company!

For the most part, as much as everyone would like R&D to post on a public forum all kinds of juicy information, it's probably not going to happen.

For one reason, I know for a fact these guys are have their own priorities and duties and posting to the forum isn't one of them.

To tell you the truth, sometimes you just have to put your trust in the name on the bottle, (or can), and understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and all of these tests that are performed on various websites are interesting, but that doesn't make them scientific fact. And as far as the wax wars are concerned, in many situations, one side is never going to change the mind of the other side, the best thing to do is if you have any questions as to how a product will perform on your own car, then get your hands on that product and test it for yourself.

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Bill D
An expensive glossometer can be used to measure just that between products.

Meguiar's had some gloss meters years ago... they gave them away. A machine like a gloss meter can never measure the wide spectrum of visual factors that the human eye can see.

Mike

[Setec Astronomy]

I was really just wondering if they do beading, or sheeting tests, or what. I know there have been many MOL threads about loss of beading, and if that really equates to loss of protection. It seems to me that it's like the "what is the best motor oil" or "gasoline" question.

A consumer can never know, really. If I keep my car for 15 years and use Brand X oil, and my engine is still like new, I don't know if it would have been the same with Brand Y oil. If my friend uses Brand Y oil, and has the same car, etc. and the engine blows, is it because of the oil, or because he's an animal, or because his engine was destined to blow because it was built on a Monday?

In the engineering world, we do testing to filter out all the variables, so I figured the wax chemists had some tests to do that.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Setec Astronomy
In the engineering world, we do testing to filter out all the variables, so I figured the wax chemists had some tests to do that.

You can be sure R&D does do all kinds of testing, but they don't share it with us, that's right... you an me.

Neither does any other wax company. You can be sure that someone important will be reading the things you have posted, but R&D is very unlikely to to respond, or give me anything to respond.

It's really out of my hands...

I know a lot of people want more information and an make a strong case for the need for the information, but historically, car wax companies are very secretive about their products.

Mike

[Bill D]

In terms of engine oil testing benefits, closest thing we have is virgin and used oil analyses like those done by Blackstone labs. They are very useful to have some kind of clue as to how the oil you are using is performing.


The guys over on http://www.bobistheoilguy.com are into this stuff just as passionately as we are about automotive appearance. Worth setting aside some time to read, can be mind boggling, but many can say the same about detaling products.

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't want to get any further off-topic, but I have to disagree with you, Bill. Oil analysis and the info on bobistheoilguy are not the kind of objective oil-to-oil comparison I am talking about. There is a thread at bobistheoilguy referring to the last large scale test that I know of, the 1996 Consumer Reports taxicab test.

These kinds of tests require real money, and the only people that do them would be oil or auto mfrs, who would closely hold the results, as Mike Phillips has indicated for the wax tests.

To get us back on the wax topic, after I started this thread, I remembered there was a wax test report (which shall remain nameless here) which you could buy, which presumably had some test procedures laid out in it. I may have to ante up and find out what they are.

[Bill D]

Unless I misunderstand what VOA and UOA measure, which can very well be, they appear at least somewhat objective when you get your results.

Only wax reports I know of were the one I mentioned earlier and the (GR) one you did. The later seems a lot more subjective to me than the oil analyses done by a lab.

He he, if we knew of/ had access to,without doubt, good objective measures and tests for detailing products, these forums would probably be a lot different. Maybe less product wars?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Bill D
He he, if we knew of/ had access to,without doubt, good objective measures and tests for detailing products, these forums would probably be a lot different. Maybe less product wars?

I doubt it.

No matter what someone's test says, it's always going to come down to you and you're eyes and your perceptions. Since everyone is different, and everyone is working on different types of paint, in different conditions, and the way they store their car and take care of their car is so varied, there will always be passionate discussions over who's wax is the best.

Mike

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally posted by Bill D
Unless I misunderstand what VOA and UOA measure, which can very well be, they appear at least somewhat objective when you get your results.

I'm not sure what VOA and UOA are, and a spectrographic analysis of your engine oil can tell you a lot of things, but, in my opinion, it won't tell you if one brand of oil is protecting you better than another. Even if you changed brands and compared spectro results from one oil change to another, there are too many seasonal etc. variables to make this reliable. At the end of 10 years or something, maybe you could say the oil you used was good, because your engine didn't blow up, but by that time the API grades have changed, the oils have been reformulated, and it would be a **** shoot on your next car.

[DSG Man]

Mike,

Food for thought for readers.

I think there was a test done by Wax Gurus (or somthing like that) that was done a while back. They applied different waxes/sealants to painted automotive panels and exposed them to washing, the environment, etc. People wouldn't have to go to the junk yard to buy hoods or fenders. They could use their own cars in their own experiment, and it would not affect their cars in any way, other than maybe having to rewax over a product that didn't meet their expectations.

It would be sort of like "left front fender for this product, right front fender for that product." You've done it to some degree in your shop, and since everyone can't go to your clinics it would certainly help answer some of the questions consumers have. Rather than asking Mike Phillips or anyone else what seemed to last the longest, shine the best, etc, folks could see first hand and draw their own conclusions.

What may work or last longer in sunny California and Florida may not in Chicago or Minneapolis. May sound farfetched, but if folks really want to know....

[Setec Astronomy]

Before we get out of hand here, I in no way wanted this to deteriorate into a "wax war". I was just trying to satisfy my engineering curiosity about how products could be objectively tested, maybe to prove that the arguments on some other forums are ridiculous without said objective tests.

[Mike Phillips]

Here's the deal and don't worry, this isn't going to turn into any kind of wax war... our Moderators won't allow it and anyone caught breaking the Forum Rules will be dealt with accordingly.

Now follow me on this...

Car manufactures recommend you change the oil in your car's engine every 3000 miles. Is this because at 3001 miles the engine will fail because the oil wasn't changed?

No, it's called preventative maintenance, it's a good rule of thumb, or guideline to follow, that is fairly painless, comparatively inexpensive an it insures your car's engine lasts a long time by preventing unnecessary wear and tear.

There are generally two categories of cars, (big picture), Garage Queens and Daily Drivers.

Garage Queens don't see much wear & tear and for this reason, you only need to wash, clay, clean, polish, and protect them once in a while. This is because there isn't very much wear and tear on the wax, that is sitting on the surface and in the microscopic surface imperfections. The wax isn't wearing off because nothing is touching it to wear it off. Remember, waxes, polishes, (paint protectants by any other name), are meant to be sacrificial-barriers, they sacrifice themselves so your paint doesn't have to. By sacrifice, I mean give themselves up under attack or anything that would deteriorate their integrity.

Daily Drivers, by the very definition are cars that most people own, and are driven on a daily basis, maybe less, but are exposed to outdoor climates where they are susceptible to attack by the environment, and/or airborne contaminants, as well as anytime they are touched. For example a bird dropping touches the finish when it lands on the hood the longer it sits on the surface, (or touches the surface), the greater the potential for damage.

What Meguiar's tries to teach people who own cars in the category of Daily Drivers is that frequent car care is easy car care and will keep your car looking new longer. For people that don't want to clean and polish their car often, but are more interested in maintaining their car to protect their investment, that depending on where you live, re-applying a coat of wax every month, to every 3-4 months, like the oil change analogy, will insure that your car's finish will not suffer any unnecessary wear and tear.

If you live in an area with a hash environment, where your coating of protection is constantly being attacked, then instead of hoping that wax is still there to protect the paint, we recommend taking the precautionary, or preventative maintenance step of re-applying wax more often.

If you live in a less harsh environment, then you can wait longer before you re-apply more protection because chances are that your wax is not being removed, or deteriorated as quickly.

The point being, if you are really interested, and concerned with having a coating of protection on your car's paint, you are better off to hedge your bet on the side of caution and re-apply a coating of wax before the previous application is completely worn away.

Preventative maintenance is good common sense. Don't believe in products that promise they will protect your car for a year, or three years, or the ridiculous claim of 5 years.

The above commentary doesn't even address the value of appearance. I've met a lot of people in the last year that have applied products that claim to offer durable protection, but when I see them first hand, the paint doesn't look good. What enjoyment value is there in a Corvette, or a Mini Cooper, or a black Skyline that is supposedly protected, but at the same time, it doesn't look good?

While durability and protection are important, I find most of the people I work with on the Internet and in the real world are in what I call the fun camp, or the passionate, car crazy camp. They polish their cars to make them look good, what they want is to stand back after cleaning and polishing their car on a Saturday afternoon and to look at it and to say to themselves, "Wow!", that looks good!

Sure they want their car to also be protected, but nobody ever comes up to them at a car show as says,

"That's some nice looking protection you have there on your Corvette".

Instead it usually goes like this,

"Wow, you paint looks great, it's almost as though it's wet... what did you use to get it to look like that?"

See the difference?

Like the oil change analogy, think in the mindset of preventative maintenance. Don't wait for your finish to degrade to the point of needing to be machine cleaned in order to restore the beauty. Wash it often, polish and wax on a regular maintenance schedule to insure that your car always has an adequate coating of protection.

Don't wait for this to happen...







and then try to recover from it...






When it comes to detailing cars, and getting good results, you need a well-though-out system of products with a name you can trust to enable you to get the best results from your time, money and efforts. Sometimes you may only need a car wash and a wax, but in the example above, you will need a collection of dedicated products to successfully tackle the wide spectrum of paint defects.

There are a lot of options out there, and the market is big enough to allow each of us to choose where we want to place our trust...

Testing? The only test that matters is the one you do.


Mike

[Mark McGuire]

Here, Here, very well thought out and written!