Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

[CieraSL]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

For those of you that wash, clay, and wash again, there is the Meguiar's (?) squeak test to see if there is wax on the surface. I know this one won't work for those of us that wash then clay and move on because the QD will prevent the squeak, but this may be more information on this subject.

Well, if there is any wax left on the surface after claying, it will be removed after you use a paint cleaner (i.e. DC1, Scratch X 2.0, Swirl X, Ultimate Compound, etc.).

[10degreesbtdc]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Here's the question that came to mind when reading this thread: If claying removes the wax/sealant where does it go? If you took the amount of wax/sealant that was used to coat the entire vehicle and poured it or spread it on a clay bar, it would not absorb it. So does the wax/sealant being removed when claying run off with the lubricant used? Wouldn't it show up in the run-off/residue or on the clay since most waxes/sealants have color? (shouldn't gray clay show lavender color from M21 or yellow from paste wax as if you rubbed it directly on the clay, same as it leaves the color on pads). Similar to when wet sanding clear coat residue/run-off is white. ???

[CieraSL]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Here's the question that came to mind when reading this thread: If claying removes the wax/sealant where does it go? If you took the amount of wax/sealant that was used to coat the entire vehicle and poured it or spread it on a clay bar, it would not absorb it. So does the wax/sealant being removed when claying run off with the lubricant used? Wouldn't it show up in the run-off/residue or on the clay since most waxes/sealants have color? (shouldn't gray clay show lavender color from M21 or yellow from paste wax as if you rubbed it directly on the clay, same as it leaves the color on pads). Similar to when wet sanding clear coat residue/run-off is white. ???

Well, I don't think the clay necessarily absorbs it, it just breaks it down faster then it would under its normal environment. Since the wax is only a few sub microns thick (or whatever the correct term is), breakdown of the wax is not going to be visible to the naked eye. From all that wax or sealant that you put on your applicator or pad and applied it to the car, only some of that goes on the car and bonds to the paint. The rest gets buffed off. And as far as the color of the wax or sealant is concerned, that's not going to be an issue because the color gets pretty much left behind in the residue, which you buffed off as excess. So that won't show up on your clay. If it were left behind for your clay or whatever, then don't you think your car would have a light yellow or lavender tint to it (based on the color of the LSP)? If that were the case, it would be especially noticeable on light colored cars, like white or silver. You'd probably see a lot of stuff on your clay bar if you stuck it under a microscope, but nothing you can see with the naked eye and therefore nothing you should worry about. Hope this helps answer your questions.

[10degreesbtdc]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I did a test on a hood yesterday just to answer this question for myself...Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I cleaned the hood with IPA numerous times. Splashed some water on it and it beaded up. Cleaned again, same thing. So I went ahead anyway.

Polished with M83 numerous times by hand to clean surface (not to remove obvious swirls), wiped 3 times with IPA, water still beaded.

Applied several coats of M21, water beads looked the same. Clayed using only water as lubricant for this test so as not to introduce any residues from recommended clay lubricants. Same beads. Removed M21 with IPA (if there was any left after claying???), beads the same. Applied Gold Paste Wax, same beads. Clayed with water again, same beads. Cleaned with IPA, same beads.

No matter what I did on this 3-stage paint the water beads look the same. This paint's clear-coat must have silicone in it! Weird. Can anyone tell me which part was waxed and which was not by looking at the water beads?

Water poured slowly on surface half cleaned with IPA, half waxed with M21. It slowly ran off the to left because the hood was not completely level.


Water sprinkled on half-waxed/half not waxed surface.




Off topic: You can see why I need to wet sand this entire vehicle once fabrication/modification is complete. The paint job leaves a lot to be desired. I'd like to sell this hood since I don't need the opening in the scoop where the supercharger used to stick out. Anyone need a S10 hood with a 6" Harwood cowl induction scoop cutout for supercharger / dual Holleys?

[10degreesbtdc]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

And as far as the color of the wax or sealant is concerned, that's not going to be an issue because the color gets pretty much left behind in the residue, which you buffed off as excess. So that won't show up on your clay. If it were left behind for your clay or whatever, then don't you think your car would have a light yellow or lavender tint to it (based on the color of the LSP)? If that were the case, it would be especially noticeable on light colored cars, like white or silver.

I understand what your saying Ciera. I'm not worried about this. I'm just trying to answer this for myself and for the member that posed the original question, mainly because I had too much time on my hands this weekend. Doesn't really matter since I always wax or seal after washing/polishing anyway. I see this as kind of a lab experiment rather than a problem.

As far as waxes/sealants leaving a tint on paint, don't some waxes leave a warm glow? Isn't that the yellow Carnauba? I don't have a white vehicle or I'd try a test using M21 and Gold Wax to see if there is a noticeable tint compared to an unwaxed area. Speaking of tint, when I apply a speed glaze made by a local distributor of OPT products, the cloth is colored orangish/yellow. If I clean the paint with IPA a week or so later the cloth is also "stained" though a much lighter orangish/yellow. So not all of the color in this "wax" is removed during application and buffing. At least, not with this brand. Can't tell if it leaves a tint on the vehicle since it's medium silver color.

[CieraSL]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

As far as waxes/sealants leaving a tint on paint, don't some waxes leave a warm glow? Isn't that the yellow Carnauba? I don't have a white vehicle or I'd try a test using M21 and Gold Wax to see if there is a noticeable tint compared to an unwaxed area. Speaking of tint, when I apply a speed glaze made by a local distributor of OPT products, the cloth is colored orangish/yellow. If I clean the paint with IPA a week or so later the cloth is also "stained" though a much lighter orangish/yellow. So not all of the color in this "wax" is removed during application and buffing. At least, not with this brand. Can't tell if it leaves a tint on the vehicle since it's medium silver color.

I think a lot of what we're talking about in this thread is mere speculation, and cannot be proved or a surefire answer arrived at by the average Joe. All these various aspects of claying, cleaning, polishing, waxing, etc., would have to be rigorously tested in a lab in controlled environments. All we can do is say, "I think this" or "I think that." If you're following the recommended advice of the pros here on MOL and you're getting the results you want, then I don't think the issue of proving anything one way or the other is going to matter one bit. I wish I had an answer to you with regards to your test - unfortunately I don't. Last night at the dealership we had an '04 Isuzu Rodeo that is being sold and the customer is picking it up on Monday. It had gone to an outside detail shop but they hadn't clayed it, so some areas of the paint felt like sandpaper. Being a car crazy guy and being it was slow and I had nothing else to do, I went ahead and washed it, clayed it, re-washed it, and then waxed it, also finishing prepping it for final delivery. It still had swirls and stuff, but we don't have anything for polishing and it wasn't a primary concern (at least not to anybody besides me) so I had to let that go. Anyway, my point is, after claying it and giving it its second wash, the water beading was no different than before claying. Why I don't know. But you knew it had been clayed, and you could see the grime coming out of the paint onto the clay bar, so obviously some of the wax had to be removed. Again, all this is speculation.

Your other question was with regards to tinting with certain waxes. I believe that that is the case, especially with lighter colors. I like topping NXT 2.0 with #26 on my car, because #26 makes the paint just glow and really makes the metal flake pop out. I had put 3M Performance Finish on my parents' 2000 white Honda Odyssey, and I decided to do a little test and try some Auto Magic carnauba wax (No. 89 XP Express Wax to be exact) on the hood to see if it would make a difference. Surprise, surprise, it actually made the hood a tad darker than the rest of the van. Here's a pic:



Given, that's not the best pic since it is in the garage, but it's easier to see the darker "tinting" under the fluorescents than in the daylight.



Of course, it could be just a mental thing and I could just think it's darker . But I think carnauba does make a difference. Just my thoughts...

[02zx9r]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Beading is a product of surface tension. Is it possible that the reason water beads well after claying is not because wax is still present but because the surface is now very smooth?

I did my room mates 94 (i believe) Ford Escort, the first day I just washed with dawn, clay barred it real good. It was exceptionally smooth. I did not get around to the correcting work for a few days after because of the weather. But it rained the next day after I washed and clay barred it, and he called me saying the wax job I did is beading like crazy. I told him I have not waxed it yet, just washed it and used a clay bar on it.

I'm with you on this one Al.

[Mikejl]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Quote:
Originally Posted by akimel
Beading is a product of surface tension. Is it possible that the reason water beads well after claying is not because wax is still present but because the surface is now very smooth?

I did my room mates 94 (i believe) Ford Escort, the first day I just washed with dawn, clay barred it real good. It was exceptionally smooth. I did not get around to the correcting work for a few days after because of the weather. But it rained the next day after I washed and clay barred it, and he called me saying the wax job I did is beading like crazy. I told him I have not waxed it yet, just washed it and used a clay bar on it.

I'm with you on this one Al.

Hey now, no fair you and Al double teaming me.

The last thing you say you did was clay. That leaves open the probability that there was a coat of QD the surface which will increase surface tension and promote beading as mentioned in previous posts above.

The real test would have been if you had washed the car after claying.

Mike

[Chop]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Quote:

Hey now, no fair you and Al double teaming me.

The last thing you say you did was clay. That leaves open the probability that there was a coat of QD the surface which will increase surface tension and promote beading as mentioned in previous posts above.

The real test would have been if you had washed the car after claying.

Mike

I am also on the side that the beading came from QD on the surface.

[Calais]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

That leaves open the probability that there was a coat of QD the surface which will increase surface tension and promote beading as mentioned in previous posts above.

The real test would have been if you had washed the car after claying.

Mike

I've washed my car right after claying and not waxed it and it beads water like crazy.

[Mikejl]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I've washed my car right after claying and not waxed it and it beads water like crazy.

Me too. That is what prompted me to start the thread.

02zx9r included an IPA wipe down in his procedure. This insured there was no wax left on the car.

Mike

[Mikejl]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax? I Now Know!

I finally have my answer. I decided to clay and wax the car earlier this week. It was the perfect time to find out if claying will remove all the wax. My Camry wasn't too bad the with bonded contaminants this time around, but I did the whole car anyway and spent about 45 minute on it using Meguiar's Smooth Surface Clay and QD.

Following the claying, I washed the car again thoroughly using:

Gold Class Car Wash.
1 Bucket (Car was washed less than an hour earlier with the 2bm).
1 Clean Meguiar's micofiber Wash mitt.
CR Spotless DI Water.

Here is what it looked like after the rinse. Some pretty nice beading. Looked to me like there was some wax left on that paint.






The next step in the test was to give the paint a good IPA wipe down. I used a 50/50 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water on the trunk going over it several times.




Here is the final picture and I really wasn't expecting this. This is what my stripped down Toyota paint looks like when sprayed down with water.




The water actually beaded better on the right side and just rolled off the paint fast.

Here is what I am taking away from this test.

1. Claying DOES remove wax.
2. Beading IS an indication of surface tension NOT an indication of wax or sealant protection present.
Note: I say that with the caveat that if a person knows how his bare paint reacts to water, then beading could be an indicator of wax or sealant present.
3. My Toyota paint doan need no stinkin' wax to bead like crazy!

Mike

[Andy M.]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

[CieraSL]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I've clayed some cars and seen the water completely sheet on them with absolutely no beading, and I've clayed some cars and seen the water bead on them and it looks like it just got waxed. I'm not sure why that is, or why it varies from car to car. I know I'm right when I say that water beading is not the only indication that there is still wax on the car. I suppose that's why you just have to wax every few months, so you don't have to question whether or not there is indeed wax on the car. Between claying and polishing, all the wax will be removed.

I know I've already posted in this thread, but a thought just came to me, so I'm going to throw it out there and you can tell me if you agree or not. I think that whether or not claying removes wax has a lot to do with how often the car is waxed. For example, if the car is waxed every 3 - 4 months, and the car is clayed (and the paint is cleaned) with every wax, then I would venture that most, if not all of the wax will be removed. However, if the car gets waxed more frequently, say once every 4 - 6 or 8 weeks, then I don't think all the wax will be removed. I clayed and waxed my car a couple of days ago, and I didn't really notice a difference in beading during my initial wash and the wash following claying. Now, my car gets waxed pretty often, so I think that factors into it. However, my parents' 1990 Accord gets waxed every 3 months or so, and after claying there is almost no beading whatsoever. Just a thought...

I think your reasoning has merit and you may be on to what I am seeing.

I would like to throw in with the other side because of all the heavy hitters that say it does remove the wax, but I just can't get myself convinced. Unfortunately there are no verified lab test data one way or the other.

By the way I did clay again my car a couple of weeks ago, but didn't have time to do a controlled test with pictures as I had to get it ready to go to a wedding. I did see the same beading at the post claying wash as in the past.

Mike

I think that this is the deal - with repeated waxings on a regular basis, the "oils" if you will get absorbed into the paint, so claying removes the wax that is on top of the paint but not the "oils" in the paint. Those oils in the paint is what causes the water beading. It could also have something to do with the type of wax used - whether it is a carnauba or a synthetic sealant. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that most synthetic sealants have some level of silicone in them, correct? Which is why they usually say "not body shop safe". Water can't dissolve silicone, so it causes lots of surface tension, whether there is any LSP on the surface or not. I have almost always used a sealant on my car versus a carnauba, so I always have beading both before and after claying. I think a good test would be this: find a car (or discarded hood from a car) that had never been waxed or hadn't been waxed in a long time, that way you know there is nothing that can mess up the test. Clay both sides of the hood to remove bonded contaminants. Apply a synthetic sealant (like NXT 2.0 or M21) to one side of the hood, and apply a carnauba wax (like M26 or Gold Class to the other side. In 3-4 months, come back, clay the hood again, and see which side beads water more, or if they both bead the same. Just a guess here.

[Mikejl]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I think that this is the deal - with repeated waxings on a regular basis, the "oils" if you will get absorbed into the paint, so claying removes the wax that is on top of the paint but not the "oils" in the paint. Those oils in the paint is what causes the water beading. It could also have something to do with the type of wax used - whether it is a carnauba or a synthetic sealant. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that most synthetic sealants have some level of silicone in them, correct? Which is why they usually say "not body shop safe". Water can't dissolve silicone, so it causes lots of surface tension, whether there is any LSP on the surface or not. I have almost always used a sealant on my car versus a carnauba, so I always have beading both before and after claying. I think a good test would be this: find a car (or discarded hood from a car) that had never been waxed or hadn't been waxed in a long time, that way you know there is nothing that can mess up the test. Clay both sides of the hood to remove bonded contaminants. Apply a synthetic sealant (like NXT 2.0 or M21) to one side of the hood, and apply a carnauba wax (like M26 or Gold Class to the other side. In 3-4 months, come back, clay the hood again, and see which side beads water more, or if they both bead the same. Just a guess here.

Interesting. But don't you think that the 50/50 IPA wipe down I did equates to paint that hasn't been waxed or sealed in a long time? I think it equals wax or sealant free paint.

Shane, have we switched sides on this debate?

Mike