Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

[TH0001]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Will detailer’s clay remove the applied paint film surface protection?

It will remove an organic wax product; any oxidized polymer will be removed; but not any polymer that has formed a molecular bond with the paint surface

See also - Article on Detailer’s Automotive Clay - http://tinyurl.com/yfly44e

I would love to see the tests you performed to make this statement.

[Mikejl]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Here is what I think. My paint is still new (a year old) and new paint even bare will have good surface tension and bead water. I think as long I take care of the paint and frequently replace the sacrificial coating of wax or sealant before it is gone, my bare paint will be able to bead water for many years to come.

I think when people neglect their paint, the paint surface starts to break down and the paint loses the surface tension it had when it was factory fresh and will no longer bead water.

Maybe the Mods can change my vote and we can retire this thread.

Mike

I am quoting myself above because when I wrote that I believed that an IPA wipe would take the surface down to the bare paint. The above erroneous assumption was my reasoning as to why I was still getting beading after an IPA wipe. Since then 2 events have happened to reaffirm my original beliefs that caused me to start this thread in the first place.

The first is from the Wax Thickness Testing Thread over at Detailing World froum.

I copied this from post #50:

2)Initial thickness:- 24.2 nm
Wipe with iso-propanol, remaining thickness = 7.2 nm
This solvent left a distinct haze over the wiped area, so I stopped here.

(For those of you that haven't read that very interesting thread. The 24.2 nm is the wax thickness on one of his test pieces).

This explains why I continued to get beading even after I did an IPA wipe.

The second is from the paint correction I did on my Camry over the holidays. I did everything the same as detailed in earlier posts with one addition.

Process
Wash
Clay
Wash (Good beading again after claying)
Polish with UC and M205
No IPA wipe (not a part of my normal process)
Added a wash step here:
Wash to removed all polish residue before LSP - NO BEADING at Rinse

I stand by my original conclusion which is I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I stand by my original conclusion which is I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

Mike

Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,

Downward pressure
Number of passes
Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
Aggressiveness of the clay
Lubricity of the clay lube

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...

:


Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I would love to see the tests you performed to make this statement.

:


Even if there were tests, there's too many variables as I listed in my previous reply to make any testing have any value.

In the real world, if I clay my car I'm going to re-apply a coat of wax or paint sealant.

It just makes good common sense and it's so easy to do, and in fact if yo like your car and take care of it anyways, then it's kind of fun to do.

[79elcamino]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

:


Even if there were tests, there's too many variables as i listed in my previous reply to make any testing have any value.

In the real world, if i clay my car i'm going to re-apply a coat of wax or paint sealant.

It just makes good common sense and it's so easy to do, and in fact if yo like your car and take care of it anyways, then it's kind of fun to do.

true story!

[searle]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

And, having taken the time to clay a car, that is the right time for a light cleaner. Clearly after clay+cleaner it is time for glaze+wax, nothing of the old stuff remaining.

[Mikejl]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,

Downward pressure
Number of passes
Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
Aggressiveness of the clay
Lubricity of the clay lube

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...

:


Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!

Mike,

I agree 100%. I would never advocate not waxing after claying any car. I'm just pointing out that claying is not a viable method of stripping wax.

Looking over my last statement, I should have wrote it like this,

... I'm sure there is some complete wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but the clay only compromises the wax where it travels over already smooth surfaces.



Mike

[TOGWT]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

I would love to see the tests you performed to make this statement.

Detailer’s clay is an abrasive product. The wax / sealant protection film is is probably less than 0.1 µ (microns) or 0.000 004 inch) thick, most of the time the abrasives will cause micro marring of the paint surface. Like grit paper or a pad and polish it isn’t selective, it doesn’t just cause scratches where there are imbedded contaminates or surface scratches, but abrades wherever the abasive comes into contact with the surface.

[searle]

Re: Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

Detailer’s clay is an abrasive product. The wax / sealant protection film is is probably less than 0.1 µ (microns) or 0.000 004 inch) thick, most of the time the abrasives will cause micro marring of the paint surface. Like grit paper or a pad and polish it isn’t selective, it doesn’t just cause scratches where there are imbedded contaminates or surface scratches, but abrades wherever the abasive comes into contact with the surface.

Agreed. Most folks have no idea how incredibly thin the actual wax/sealant coat is. You wipe on the wax and that is relatively thick, then it dries and you wipe off the excess (almost all of it). Only a terribly thin coat remains behind. And you cannot "layer" multiple coats, every new one and wipedown takes the layer back to the initial thickness (or "thinness").

[sleker]

Detailing class

I when to school for auto body.... And in the class we leared that it dosent remove all... But u should use dish soap only in the case ur gonna re wax or clay cuz is strips every thing off sept pain and clear coat so id say if ur gonna clay use dish soap and clay the wax or sealent

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Detailing class

I when to school for auto body.... And in the class we leared that it dosent remove all... But u should use dish soap only in the case ur gonna re wax or clay cuz is strips every thing off sept pain and clear coat so id say if ur gonna clay use dish soap and clay the wax or sealent

How much wax will be removed by clay, or even with dish soap, depends on several factors. Carnauba waxes are not as durable as synthetic polymers so they should more easily be fully removed by either process. The age of the wax coating also plays a role: a fresh coat of wax is going to be not only thicker than an older, degraded coat, but more durable as well. This is especially true of synthetic polymer sealants, so much so that a fresh application of such a protectant can actually slow down a wet sanding process initially! And then of course there's the aggressiveness of the clay itself, and the dilution ratio of the dish detergent.

It is pretty rare, however, that someone needs to clay their car immediately following an application of a wax or sealant. Sure, you could detail on Sunday and be exposed to some nasty overspray on Monday, but that's pretty rare. Annoying as heck, sure, but rare. In the vast majority of cases, when someone determines that it's time to clay their car it's usually been a while since they waxed it. If it's been three or four months since you last wax application, there isn't a heck of a lot of wax left anyway, so what is left should easily be removed with clay or even a light paint cleaner.