Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

[akimel]

With DC1 now disappearing from store shelves, presumably on its way to detailing oblivion, I would like to propose that Meguiar's bring out a new product--Meguiar's Paintwork Cleanser or Meguiar's Pre-Wax Cleanser or something like that.

Over at another forum, it has been suggested that in popular detailing parlance a paint cleaner is a nonabrasive prep product that effects a deep cleaning of the paint without leaving behind any glazing oils or gloss enhancers (sounds like DC1, right?). A paint cleanser, on the other hand, is a nonabrasive prep product that cleanses the paint, removes wax, and enhances gloss. It also functions to temporarily hide swirls and slight defects. Examples of a paint cleanser are Dodo Juice Lime Prime Lite, Lusso Revitalizing Creme, P21S Paintwork Cleanser, and Swissvax Cleaning Fluid. Paint cleansers are particularly useful for those occasions when the detailer does not intend to correct paint defects through polishing but would still like to properly prepare the paint surface for waxing. I presume, though I do not know and may well be wrong on this point, that the cleansing action of these products is effected by chemicals rather than by abrasives. Interestingly, some detailers apparently like to use a paint cleanser even after they have corrected the paint with an abrasive polish.

I propose that Meguiar's bring out a product that would directly compete with the products in the category of paint cleansers. It would need to be a product that effectively works whether when applied by hand or by dual action polisher.

The closest product in the Meguiar's line that comes close to being a paint cleanser is M09 Swirl Remover; but it is not really marketed as a paint cleanser nor do I know how well it works when applied by hand.

What do you think? Would you want such a product?

Cheers,
Al

[CieraSL]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Sounds like a good idea to me. I haven't done any polishing by hand, but I have used DC1 on my parents' 1990 Accord after claying but before waxing. I think it has improved the longevity somewhat. View thread here: http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33306

[Murr1525]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Well, I'd say that I can see where people may think SwirLX will be too agressive for regular use.

But it also come back to what the Mike's have said about the new SMAT technology causing people to have to re-learn how to use some products. If you want a SMAT product milder, you just work them in milder, nothing to break down.

Someone is also going to have to work very hard to explain to me why I dont want to do things that make the paint look better, like fix defects, leave behind oils, etc. If a mild, entry level product fixes defects and makes the finish look better, ***** for me.

As a side note, keep in mind that no one in the "real world" is going to pay attention to whether a word that they have seen for decades has an extra 'S' in it or not.

[akimel]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

As a side note, keep in mind that no one in the "real world" is going to pay attention to whether a word that they have seen for decades has an extra 'S' in it or not.

But detailers don't live in the "real world." Haha!

[Bounty]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

With DC1 now disappearing from store shelves, presumably on its way to detailing oblivion, I would like to propose that Meguiar's bring out a new product--Meguiar's Paintwork Cleanser or Meguiar's Pre-Wax Cleanser or something like that.

Seeing DC-1 discontinued really hurts. I enjoyed using it and definitely would purchase again for its intended uses.

Over at another forum, it has been suggested that in popular detailing parlance a paint cleaner is a nonabrasive prep product that effects a deep cleaning of the paint without leaving behind any glazing oils or gloss enhancers (sounds like DC1, right?). A paint cleanser, on the other hand, is a nonabrasive prep product that cleanses the paint, removes wax, and enhances gloss. It also functions to temporarily hide swirls and slight defects. Examples of a paint cleanser are Dodo Juice Lime Prime Lite, Lusso Revitalizing Creme, P21S Paintwork Cleanser, and Swissvax Cleaning Fluid. Paint cleansers are particularly useful for those occasions when the detailer does not intend to correct paint defects through polishing but would still like to properly prepare the paint surface for waxing. I presume, though I do not know and may well be wrong on this point, that the cleansing action of these products is effected by chemicals rather than by abrasives.

Here's my take and reasoning behind why I think it won't ever happen...

I have long been a fan of Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer. I use it on Concours details to prep the surface prior to applying my LSP of choice. It has some mild chemical cleaners/cleansers which remove anything that survived the wash and and prepares the surface to accept wax. It contains a mild gloss enhancer and some fillers which create a uniform surface layer ideal for polymer-based bonding. It is an excellent base for all of the carnauba waxes I have used it with. Particularly of value on one-step corrections where some very minor defects might remain, these paintwork enhacers contain enough fillers to mask them.

The problem with this film layer/filler is that with a few exceptions (M16, DC-3, etc) all Meguiar's waxes and sealants contain chemical cleaning properties to one degree or another. That being the case, applying NXT 2.0 on top of it is a waste as it will typically remove the layer of fillers and thus render your work useless. This is also why Meguiar's waxes and sealants are not typically ideal for topping or layering and not recommended by Meg's as such. If you do layer a Meg's product it should be used as the base layer. Their recommendation for two thin coats is for total and completely uniform coverage and not to create film build.

So in that vein, the DC-1 was ideal as it did all the work of a dedicated paint cleanser but leaves no film build as it was meant to be followed by an abrasive polish (DC-2). I like to use it since I primarily apply NXT 2.0 as a base layer topped by a boutique wax of my choice.

I propose that Meguiar's bring out a product that would directly compete with the products in the category of paint cleansers. It would need to be a product that effectively works whether when applied by hand or by dual action polisher.

In regards to a paint product that fills and masks defects and enhances gloss and can be topped they already have the established M07 (although I'm not a fan).

The closest product in the Meguiar's line that comes close to being a paint cleanser is M09 Swirl Remover; but it is not really marketed as a paint cleanser nor do I know how well it works when applied by hand.

It's more abrasive than the purely chemical cleaners/cleansers and doesn't mask defects as well.

What do you think? Would you want such a product?

Although I'd love to see it so I won't have to pay for the more expensive brands I doubt it'll happen. One can always hope though...

[jmakado]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

#9 is the closest to what you are looking for. IMO it fills like nobody's business.

Also, DC-2 is a pure polish with no abrasive qualities.

Lastly, I have never seen either NXT, NXT 2.0, or M21 remove a previous layer of pure polish. I have used all three on many different paint systems over #9, #7, DC2, and #80 (which has it's fair share of polishing oils).

Not sure where you are getting some of your info from Bounty but please share as some of it seems to directly contradict what I read just doing a minimal amount of searching on MOL.

[Bounty]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

#9 is the closest to what you are looking for. IMO it fills like nobody's business.

Aside from it's sometimes tricky or finicky behavior, M07 has both the nourishing oils necessary to darken paint colors and the filling capability to mask defects. I am just not a fan of it. M09 is a cleaner/polish which is rated a "3" on the Meguiar's abrasivity scale. The products he was referring to are abrasive-free and only contain chemical cleaners. Totally different category of product.

Lastly, I have never seen either NXT, NXT 2.0, or M21 remove a previous layer of pure polish. I have used all three on many different paint systems over #9, #7, DC2, and #80 (which has it's fair share of polishing oils).

Not sure where you are getting some of your info from Bounty but please share as some of it seems to directly contradict what I read just doing a minimal amount of searching on MOL.

Mike Phillips...search his posts. There has long been a debate on this and other forums (Autogeek, Autopia, TID) as to whether or not NXT and NXT 2.0 contain cleaners. While not "cleaner waxes" they do contain mild chemical cleaners. NXT 2.0's mild chemical cleaners tend to remove film build...therefore not making it an ideal product for topping. NXT 2.0 contains kaolin clay which is a type of mild cleaner and is contained in most of Meguiar's waxes. See for yourself:

http://www.meguiars.com/msds/msds_search.cfm

And for some info from Mike directly on layering waxes:

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2167

Don't confuse infusing a porous surface with oils and creating a film build as Mike explains here:

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29523

[ColonelCash]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Couldn't you use a Cleaner Wax for the same purpose...I'm assuming you'd be topping it with another wax later in the job. Megs M06 and 3M both have a cleaner wax for sale.

[Caress Detailing]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Technically, isn't "Color X" like a paintwork cleanser? I've tried the P21S paintwork cleanser, and honestly, it's more glaze than cleaner. While I've had much better results with Color X followed by M21 or NXT.

[Murr1525]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

I think Al's original point was comparing things that didnt leave a wax behind, which ColorX would.

But certainly wax is one of the things that can act as a filler, along with the polishing oils.

[jmakado]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

NXT 2.0's mild chemical cleaners tend to remove film build...therefore not making it an ideal product for topping. NXT 2.0 contains kaolin clay which is a type of mild cleaner and is contained in most of Meguiar's waxes.

Kaolin clay is also used for it's filling properties.

I have seen posts in which Mike Phillips also stated that the mild chemical cleaners in NXT and M21 are only there to help the product adhere. He specifically has stated on many occasions that the cleaners in NXT and M21 will in no way remove any pure polish that is previously applied to the finish.

The whole layering discussion is fairly silly. Any product can be layered....think about a can of M26 paste. It's "layered" in the can. i.e. it's sitting on top of itself.

As far as layering on paint goes....not so much. You can put on whatever product you want, wipe it off, wait X period of time and apply again. To this date I have not seen any paint thickness measurements that show additional layers provide any additional film build. Unless somebody shows that the product being applied is achieving a thicker film build with every application I have no doubt that no "layering" is actually being achieved.

[Tuck91]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

DC1 hasnt made its way out of stores yet,

[Bounty]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Kaolin clay is also used for it's filling properties.

Correct but it's cleaning properties are undisputed.

I have seen posts in which Mike Phillips also stated that the mild chemical cleaners in NXT and M21 are only there to help the product adhere. He specifically has stated on many occasions that the cleaners in NXT and M21 will in no way remove any pure polish that is previously applied to the finish.

Absolutely...there are quotes by Mike directly and second hand from Meguiar's chemists that can be read in a variety of ways and can appear very contradictory and is why everyone should read what they see on the internet with a grain of salt and remember that it's key to, in Mike's words, "find something you like and use it often"...

The whole layering discussion is fairly silly. Any product can be layered....think about a can of M26 paste. It's "layered" in the can. i.e. it's sitting on top of itself.

Sure it may be "sitting" on top of itself but is it adhered to itself? And what about NXT (product in question) in it's liquid form? Is the whole bottle adhered together at a polymer or molecular level? If they were instantly adhered to each other why is there a Meguiar's recommendation to wait for the polymers to set and adhere to the surface? And if that theory were correct then you could "layer" thirty coats on top of each other because they would continue to adhere to themselves and we know that to be incorrect for a fact.

As far as layering on paint goes....not so much. You can put on whatever product you want, wipe it off, wait X period of time and apply again. To this date I have not seen any paint thickness measurements that show additional layers provide any additional film build. Unless somebody shows that the product being applied is achieving a thicker film build with every application I have no doubt that no "layering" is actually being achieved.

Exactly! And hence the reason why the postulate that the product adheres to itself ad infinitum is inplausible. If you apply thirty layers of wax and it doesn't create any film build on the surface beyond the original layer than it is obvious that the bonding is taking place with the paint surface and not to additional product.

Although we are now straying far from the original posters topic the products he is comparing DC-1 to are products that claim to infuse paint with oils, mask defects with fillers, and create a uniform film build and level surface to which LSP adhesion is promoted. His question was whether or not DC-1 filled that role (it did not) and whether Meguiar's will create and promote a product which does (I don't think they will). Directly from their own promotional materials these products are typically designed to be used prior to LSP application to both cleanse/clean the surface and prepare it for LSP while infusing the surface to increase gloss.

Meguiar's 5-step process has specific steps and products which address all of these issues so I don't see a niche product being specifically developed which was what the topic of this thread was supposed to determine whether or not any of us agree with its postulates, background, or practice.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Kaolin clay is also used for it's filling properties.

I have seen posts in which Mike Phillips also stated that the mild chemical cleaners in NXT and M21 are only there to help the product adhere. He specifically has stated on many occasions that the cleaners in NXT and M21 will in no way remove any pure polish that is previously applied to the finish.

The whole layering discussion is fairly silly. Any product can be layered....think about a can of M26 paste. It's "layered" in the can. i.e. it's sitting on top of itself.

As far as layering on paint goes....not so much. You can put on whatever product you want, wipe it off, wait X period of time and apply again. To this date I have not seen any paint thickness measurements that show additional layers provide any additional film build. Unless somebody shows that the product being applied is achieving a thicker film build with every application I have no doubt that no "layering" is actually being achieved.

Just to chime in here...

Meguiar's Deep Crystal Polish #2 is a pure polish and contains no ingredients with the intent for cleaning the paint. It is in the same category as M03, M05, M07, M81 and M45 as being a pure polish. Meguiar's M07 Show Car Glaze contains the most TS Oils of all.

Secondly, Meguiar's did have a paint cleanser of sorts, in its discontinued Medallion Line. In the consumer line, Meguiar's also had Body Scrub which was mostly a strong chemical cleaner. I still have bottles of each of these as they work so darn well, especially removal of water etchings/spots. It is most likely that one of the reasons these were discontinued was due in part to the new VOC regulations; Only Meguiar's knows for sure.

Thirdly, the specialized cleaners in Meguiar's NXT 2.0 will not remove all of the previous layer. There was so much incorrect information floating around the net that NXT had these powerful cleaners which it simply does not! The specialized cleaners are used in it as well as M21 as a means to aiding in the bonding process. If you want a true cleaner wax, use M06, M20, ColorX, M66 Quick Detailer, or D151 PRC.

Lastly, being an old hand at this and having been the Super Mod on here for many years, I can tell you with assurance that the MSDS information is for safety precautions only and is not an ingredients list. Having had this discussion several times in the past with both posters and the chemists, there are many ways for the use of several ingredients. It is when people start looking at the MSDS, dissecting it, seeing an ingredient and then make their false conclusions. Trust me, there is a lot more to it than what the MSDS suggests.



Tim

[roushstage2]

Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

Would a "cleanser" be like Poorboy's Black Hole? Still have a new bottle of this, just no time to use it.