Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"? - Page 2
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Thread: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

          
  1. #11
    Registered Member jmakado's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bounty View Post
    NXT 2.0's mild chemical cleaners tend to remove film build...therefore not making it an ideal product for topping. NXT 2.0 contains kaolin clay which is a type of mild cleaner and is contained in most of Meguiar's waxes.
    Kaolin clay is also used for it's filling properties.

    I have seen posts in which Mike Phillips also stated that the mild chemical cleaners in NXT and M21 are only there to help the product adhere. He specifically has stated on many occasions that the cleaners in NXT and M21 will in no way remove any pure polish that is previously applied to the finish.

    The whole layering discussion is fairly silly. Any product can be layered....think about a can of M26 paste. It's "layered" in the can. i.e. it's sitting on top of itself.

    As far as layering on paint goes....not so much. You can put on whatever product you want, wipe it off, wait X period of time and apply again. To this date I have not seen any paint thickness measurements that show additional layers provide any additional film build. Unless somebody shows that the product being applied is achieving a thicker film build with every application I have no doubt that no "layering" is actually being achieved.
    Jason

  2. #12
    is more old fashioned Tuck91's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    DC1 hasnt made its way out of stores yet,
    Nick
    Tucker's Detailing Services
    815-954-0773
    2012 Ford Transit Connect

  3. #13
    Recovering PC Addict Bounty's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmakado View Post
    Kaolin clay is also used for it's filling properties.
    Correct but it's cleaning properties are undisputed.

    I have seen posts in which Mike Phillips also stated that the mild chemical cleaners in NXT and M21 are only there to help the product adhere. He specifically has stated on many occasions that the cleaners in NXT and M21 will in no way remove any pure polish that is previously applied to the finish.
    Absolutely...there are quotes by Mike directly and second hand from Meguiar's chemists that can be read in a variety of ways and can appear very contradictory and is why everyone should read what they see on the internet with a grain of salt and remember that it's key to, in Mike's words, "find something you like and use it often"...

    The whole layering discussion is fairly silly. Any product can be layered....think about a can of M26 paste. It's "layered" in the can. i.e. it's sitting on top of itself.
    Sure it may be "sitting" on top of itself but is it adhered to itself? And what about NXT (product in question) in it's liquid form? Is the whole bottle adhered together at a polymer or molecular level? If they were instantly adhered to each other why is there a Meguiar's recommendation to wait for the polymers to set and adhere to the surface? And if that theory were correct then you could "layer" thirty coats on top of each other because they would continue to adhere to themselves and we know that to be incorrect for a fact.

    As far as layering on paint goes....not so much. You can put on whatever product you want, wipe it off, wait X period of time and apply again. To this date I have not seen any paint thickness measurements that show additional layers provide any additional film build. Unless somebody shows that the product being applied is achieving a thicker film build with every application I have no doubt that no "layering" is actually being achieved.
    Exactly! And hence the reason why the postulate that the product adheres to itself ad infinitum is inplausible. If you apply thirty layers of wax and it doesn't create any film build on the surface beyond the original layer than it is obvious that the bonding is taking place with the paint surface and not to additional product.

    Although we are now straying far from the original posters topic the products he is comparing DC-1 to are products that claim to infuse paint with oils, mask defects with fillers, and create a uniform film build and level surface to which LSP adhesion is promoted. His question was whether or not DC-1 filled that role (it did not) and whether Meguiar's will create and promote a product which does (I don't think they will). Directly from their own promotional materials these products are typically designed to be used prior to LSP application to both cleanse/clean the surface and prepare it for LSP while infusing the surface to increase gloss.

    Meguiar's 5-step process has specific steps and products which address all of these issues so I don't see a niche product being specifically developed which was what the topic of this thread was supposed to determine whether or not any of us agree with its postulates, background, or practice.

  4. #14
    aka 2hotford Tim Lingor's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmakado View Post
    Kaolin clay is also used for it's filling properties.

    I have seen posts in which Mike Phillips also stated that the mild chemical cleaners in NXT and M21 are only there to help the product adhere. He specifically has stated on many occasions that the cleaners in NXT and M21 will in no way remove any pure polish that is previously applied to the finish.

    The whole layering discussion is fairly silly. Any product can be layered....think about a can of M26 paste. It's "layered" in the can. i.e. it's sitting on top of itself.

    As far as layering on paint goes....not so much. You can put on whatever product you want, wipe it off, wait X period of time and apply again. To this date I have not seen any paint thickness measurements that show additional layers provide any additional film build. Unless somebody shows that the product being applied is achieving a thicker film build with every application I have no doubt that no "layering" is actually being achieved.
    Just to chime in here...

    Meguiar's Deep Crystal Polish #2 is a pure polish and contains no ingredients with the intent for cleaning the paint. It is in the same category as M03, M05, M07, M81 and M45 as being a pure polish. Meguiar's M07 Show Car Glaze contains the most TS Oils of all.

    Secondly, Meguiar's did have a paint cleanser of sorts, in its discontinued Medallion Line. In the consumer line, Meguiar's also had Body Scrub which was mostly a strong chemical cleaner. I still have bottles of each of these as they work so darn well, especially removal of water etchings/spots. It is most likely that one of the reasons these were discontinued was due in part to the new VOC regulations; Only Meguiar's knows for sure.

    Thirdly, the specialized cleaners in Meguiar's NXT 2.0 will not remove all of the previous layer. There was so much incorrect information floating around the net that NXT had these powerful cleaners which it simply does not! The specialized cleaners are used in it as well as M21 as a means to aiding in the bonding process. If you want a true cleaner wax, use M06, M20, ColorX, M66 Quick Detailer, or D151 PRC.

    Lastly, being an old hand at this and having been the Super Mod on here for many years, I can tell you with assurance that the MSDS information is for safety precautions only and is not an ingredients list. Having had this discussion several times in the past with both posters and the chemists, there are many ways for the use of several ingredients. It is when people start looking at the MSDS, dissecting it, seeing an ingredient and then make their false conclusions. Trust me, there is a lot more to it than what the MSDS suggests.



    Tim

  5. #15
    Registered Member roushstage2's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Would a "cleanser" be like Poorboy's Black Hole? Still have a new bottle of this, just no time to use it.


  6. #16
    aka 2hotford Tim Lingor's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Quote Originally Posted by roushstage2 View Post
    Would a "cleanser" be like Poorboy's Black Hole? Still have a new bottle of this, just no time to use it.
    Hey Tyler,

    I do not know as I have not use that product before.

    However, I have used a lot of the Medallion Paint Cleaner and it was an awesome product! The only complaint I had was that using it in a closed environment made you loopy from the chemical smell! But man...did it work!


    Tim

  7. #17
    Pro/Marine/RV Product Manager Markus Kleis's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    I just want to chime in here for a second and remind everyone that although we certainly allow and encourage discussion of products and technique on MOL, we condone confrontational tones or words.

    As Mike Phillips used to point out, few topics will draw more passionate responses (and arguments) than car wax and religion.

    Feel free to share your opinion, but please avoid confrontational posting and posting information as if it is fact, when it is more of a personal opinion.

    There is a lot of misinformation on the internet, and a lot of it gets started from drawing conclusions based on too little information.

    Thanks in advance.

    Mark
    Meguiar's Professional, Marine/RV Global Product Manager
    My ride: 2014 Ford Focus ST, 6 Speed, Race Red
    NEW USERS GO HERE FOR RULES AND HELPFUL LINKS: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...guiar-s-Online

  8. #18
    Recovering PC Addict Bounty's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Lingor View Post
    Secondly, Meguiar's did have a paint cleanser of sorts, in its discontinued Medallion Line. In the consumer line, Meguiar's also had Body Scrub which was mostly a strong chemical cleaner. I still have bottles of each of these as they work so darn well, especially removal of water etchings/spots.
    Dangit Tim! Is that you that keeps out bidding me on those bottles on Ebay?! If you ever want to let go of a bottle of MPC or BS let me know...

    Thirdly, the specialized cleaners in Meguiar's NXT 2.0 will not remove all of the previous layer. The specialized cleaners are used in it as well as M21 as a means to aiding in the bonding process.
    Yup, I too remember the pages and pages of discussion on Autopia and Autogeek debating whether or not NXT contained cleaners until Meguiar's finally came out and put the discussion to rest by divulging the cleaning agents within NXT.

  9. #19
    aka 2hotford Tim Lingor's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bounty View Post
    Dangit Tim! Is that you that keeps out bidding me on those bottles on Ebay?! If you ever want to let go of a bottle of MPC or BS let me know...



    Yup, I too remember the pages and pages of discussion on Autopia and Autogeek debating whether or not NXT contained cleaners until Meguiar's finally came out and put the discussion to rest by divulging the cleaning agents within NXT.
    LOLOL Nope...my Medallion is staying with me until the end!

    Oh I remember those arguments as I was part of many of them. (I was one of the original Lab Sample E testers while at the same time moderating AOPP, SCG and then MOL.) The difficult part is that due to trade secrets etc, the ingredients that are present and what they are really being used for are not known to the public, which ends up leading to speculation and often, incorrect conclusions. That is the real value of MOL as it helps to correct misinformation in regards to Meguiar's products!


    Tim

  10. #20
    Detailing Dunce akimel's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need a Meguiar's paintwork "cleanser"?

    If the responses so far are representative, I think it is accurate to say that little demand exists for the kind of paint cleanser that I described in my original article. As as been pointed out, the functions offered by a cleanser can be achieved by various combinations of Meguiar's products. If one wants to clean the paint, e.g., one can always use an abrasive cleaner/polish (M09, SwirlX, etc.) or a cleaner wax (ColorX, Cleaner Wax, M20, etc.). If one wants to clean the paint and add a little gloss, then one can follow-up the cleaner/polish with a pure polish (DC2, M07, M81). I suppose one might also follow-up a cleaner wax with a pure polish, and maybe this works very well in reality--I know some MOL members love the results they have gotten--but I confess that applying a pure polish on top of a wax just strikes me as ... well, "unseemly." Once I have waxed a car, the only thing I want to put on top of the wax is another coat of wax. In any case, following up either a cleaner/polish or a cleaner wax with a pure polish requires a two-step process rather than just one.

    M09 might seem to fulfill the qualifications of what I have described as a paint cleanser, though it's unclear to me how effectively it cleans paint when applied by hand. Its cleaning action is effected by diminishing abrasives, and these abrasives still need to be broken down--and that takes work, right? Paint cleansers, on the other hand, appear to accomplish their objectives more easily: you rub them on and wipe them off, just like one would apply and remove a pure polish.

    But if there is no demand for a paint cleanser, and apparently there is not, then it would be silly for Meguiar's to entertain the creation of such a product.

    I guess it's time to talk about ... boutique waxes.

    Cheers,
    Al
    Swirls hide in the black molecular depths, only waiting for the right time to emerge and destroy your sanity.
    --Al Kimel

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