G110 or Flex

[c5rick]

Currently all my work has been by hand and to me it turns out OK. I don't detail for a living but would like to start doing about 10 cars a month. A couple of these cars will be attending shows and a lot of cruise-ins, so I would like to step it up with a machine. I have some supplies like cleaners, polishes & waxes ... My question, I've never used a machine before and have a very limited budget, so would you purchase a Flex3401VRG and buy additional supplies a little at a time, or get a G110 and with the money left, buy more supplies?
Hope this question isn't too confusing and Thanks

[Justin A]

Re: G110 or Flex

If you have enough product left to get you through for awhile, I would go for the Flex as it's a more powerful machine. If you're needing to buy supplies soon, go with the G110 and a whole mess of product at the same time.
Don't forget to load up on pads too.

[ClearlyCoated]

Re: G110 or Flex

If you only plan to detail part time, I would opt for the G110. The Flex would make more sense if you planned to do this full time. As you mentioned, take the diffrence and spend it on supplies. If you get the bug to detail more than 10 cars a month, then you could look into selling the G110 and stepping up to the Flex at a later date.

[Bounty]

Re: G110 or Flex

I've never used a machine before and have a very limited budget

As much as I'd love to recommend the Flex as it is the better machine, I think you answered your own question right there....get the G110.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

I am not a guy that will dismiss the power of a random orbital.

I would heartily and happily recommend the Meguiar's G110.
It is comfortable and easy to use, yet if outfitted properly, it can equal or rival the Flex in terms of defect removal and final polishing.

I am not opposed to anyone that prefers the Flex, but if I was looking for a forced rotation orbital machine, I would recommend that a person also investigate the Dynabrade #61379/61384 Dual Action Buffing Head. It fits onto most rotary machines, delivers up to 3,000 revolutions as well as 3,000 oscillations per minute, and has a 3/4" stroke to boot!

If the user ends up wanting to rotary polish, the attachment can be removed and a regular backing plate can be installed.

As it stands, the Flex literature lists the speed without load at 160-480 RPM and the orbit rate without load at 3,200-9,600 RPM (this is the same thing as oscillations per minute or OPM in the case of this machine). However, my own research into the specs show that the ratio is NOT 20:1, but is in fact 10:1.

How did I research this? It was super-technical... I used all sorts of meters and electronic gizmos with accelerometers and such. Naw, just kidding- I simply spun the backing plate by hand and counted how many in and out movements the backing plate made!

The total was ten oscillations for every rotation. If, in fact, the specs are off by the amount of rotations the pad makes, then the rotations spec may very well be 80-240 RPM. If that is the case, a random orbital can easily replicate a similar amount of rotations (I regularly see my machine travel an estimated 600 RPM). If the orbit rate is incorrect, then the machine will top out at 4,800 OPM (the G110 has an OPM rating of 6,700 OPM). I suspect that the RPM may be lower, not the OPM.

If you are asking, "What is your point, and how does this impact my choice between the Meguiar's G110, the Dynabrade 61379/61384, and the Flex XC 3401 VRG?"

The point is this: Regardless the unit you choose, they all generally work better and faster than hand application, so get one! But before you do, if you have the opportunity to try the Flex or G110 at least, do it.

There are a lot of dynamics going on that the user does not need to worry about. That being said, a change in oscillation size, backing plate speed, or even the rotational weight DOES make a big difference in overall performance.

Best of luck to you!

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

...The total was ten oscillations for every rotation. If, in fact, the specs are off by the amount of rotations the pad makes, then the rotations spec may very well be 80-240 RPM. If that is the case, a random orbital can easily replicate a similar amount of rotations (I regularly see my machine travel an estimated 600 RPM). If the orbit rate is incorrect, then the machine will top out at 4,800 OPM (the G110 has an OPM rating of 6,700 OPM). I suspect that the RPM may be lower, not the OPM.

Oops! This should be corrected to read:

If the ratio of oscillations to rotations is 10:1, it is reasonable to assume that:

If the maximum OPM is 9,600, the rotation will be 960 RPM.
If the maximum RPM is 480, then the oscillation will be 4,800 OPM.

That's better.

[3Fitty]

Re: G110 or Flex

I am not a guy that will dismiss the power of a random orbital.

As you're teaching the detailing world on a daily basis.

I would heartily and happily recommend the Meguiar's G110.

This is great news for G110 owners like me, as in the last few months I almost dumped my G110 in favor of the Flex DA (mainly because of this video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwbVzsphzs).

It is comfortable and easy to use, yet if outfitted properly, it can equal or rival the Flex in terms of defect removal and final polishing.

Kevin, can you elaborate on "outfitted properly"? What would you recommend?

However, my own research into the specs show that the ratio is NOT 20:1, but is in fact 10:1.

I didn't get your point when I first read this, but now I get it. This is HUGE if you are correct and really does level the playing field between the G110 and the Flex.

That being said, a change in oscillation size, backing plate speed, or even the rotational weight DOES make a big difference in overall performance.

I've had my G110 for nearly two years now and I feel like I'm getting pretty good with it, although I KNOW I have tons to learn. Any suggestions you could make on maximizing it's use?

Specifically, I know Megs doesn't recommend it, but could I use speed setting 6? What about switching to smaller pads (say 4" pads)?

I know you are not a big fan of the "dimpled pads" (like the CCS foam pads) when being used with M105/M205, should we only be using flat pads?

How about backing plates, if using 4" pad should we use the standard backing plate that comes with the G110 or should we use the 4" packing plate (the really small one)?

Thanks Kevin.

[Bounty]

Re: G110 or Flex

The total was ten oscillations for every rotation. If, in fact, the specs are off by the amount of rotations the pad makes, then the rotations spec may very well be 80-240 RPM. If that is the case, a random orbital can easily replicate a similar amount of rotations (I regularly see my machine travel an estimated 600 RPM). If the orbit rate is incorrect, then the machine will top out at 4,800 OPM (the G110 has an OPM rating of 6,700 OPM). I suspect that the RPM may be lower, not the OPM.

I think based on the mathemtaics you postulated this is an important note. If that's the case then the 9,600 OPM's actually produces more than 950 RPM's...thereby making it more powerful than advertised at 480 RPM's. Would be something that empirical evidence through many uses would have to verify. A lot of good information in your thread, just didn't want the numbers to be misinterpreted by people casually scrolling through...

EDIT: Oops...didn't see your correction in the follow-up thread before posting.

[Bounty]

Re: G110 or Flex

This is great news for G110 owners like me, as in the last few months I almost dumped my G110 in favor of the Flex DA (mainly because of this video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwbVzsphzs).

And that's an important distinguishing characteristic. Can a random orbital using the right size pads, proper pad composition, and technique/product variations achieve a similar end result as a Flex or even a rotary that aren't using the KBM? Sure. On some paint surfaces it can. Can it do it in the same amount of time? That's oftentimes a different story. And what if you factor in a Flex user also incorporating the KBM? Gets very tricky...

Because time and effort are weighed differently by specific individuals it becomes a more subjective comparison. Since this will rapidly devolve into a ROB vs Flex thread hijack I'll get back to the original poster's question...I think for 75% to 80% of pure "hobbyists" a ROB like the G110 or PC7424XP is fine, maybe an even higher percentage. For guys that do a higher volume or are looking to achieve a different standard I think a variety of tools makes the most sense. I personally carry both a PC7424 and a Flex and haven't come across a job that can't be tackled by that combo yet...

I'll let Kevin answer the rest of the questions you posed him.

[3Fitty]

Re: G110 or Flex

Because time and effort are weighed differently by specific individuals it becomes a more subjective comparison.

I think you are spot on here but for a weekend hack like me *if* I can get my results with a G110 *close* to a rotary (even if it takes me longer), I'm 100% okay with that. I'm almost never in a hurry (as I'm only doing my own cars) so for me (personally) time is not big concern.

Even the effort is not such a big concern for me, the big one is the result. If I can get rotary results, or even "close to rotary" results, I'd be pretty darn happy.

I just don't see myself ever taking the jump to a rotary (although Kevin's dynabride example makes it very tempting) because I just see myself trying the device as a rotary and burning the hell out of my paint.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

I think based on the mathemtaics you postulated this is an important note. If that's the case then the 9,600 OPM's actually produces more than 950 RPM's...thereby making it more powerful than advertised at 480 RPM's. Would be something that empirical evidence through many uses would have to verify. A lot of good information in your thread, just didn't want the numbers to be misinterpreted by people casually scrolling through...

EDIT: Oops...didn't see your correction in the follow-up thread before posting.

Yeah, I added those to clarify and show both sides of the coin. I did not mention the "KBM", as I do not discuss it here at MOL at this time. That being said, there was no reference made to the amount of pressure or special pad priming or removal of excess liquid... I was trying to compare just the machine specifications.

So, if the G110 and the XC 3401 VRG use the same stroke and are set to deliver the same oscillation rate, the the only remaining factors are rotational speed and moving mass. I do not have figures for moving mass, but whether the backing plate rotation is mechanically forced or generated by centripetal force does not matter unless enough pressure is applied or there is a change in friction during a polishing cycle (both of which are certainly possible).

In this case, we should again look at both sides of the coin in relation to backing plate speed. If a light touch is used to polish, the forced rotation machine might limit the rotation, whereas the random orbital machine would not.

Now as foe the time debate... Ahh, yes!
Well, this would have to be considered in an all-encompassing manner. It's a long discussion as to the amount of time it takes to polish one paint type versus another, or this type of defect versus that type. Then, what about the time investment of learning how to use that baby properly and efficiently? For a newbie, it is a daunting task. Not impossible or unlikely, just more difficult at the onset.

There are specific circumstances in which the trade off is worth the extra time spent polishing a specific are. Case in point, the Alpine Electronics Imprint RLS:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25530

That vehicle had VERY sharp edges and were sanded OVER the edge, using 800 and 1000 grit papers! Let me tell you, it was a daunting task, even for guys that KNOW how to work that rotating surface modifier (a rotary buffer). So, we took our time and removed the sanding marks close to or on the edges using the random orbital.

The Alpine Boat also had similarly sharp edges:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21186

On that boat, rotary and random orbital machines were used.

Do I still use the rotary? Certainly, but not nearly as much as before. As technology advances, it is exciting and interesting to realize just how much work can be done with machine's that are of the random orbital or forced rotational orbital variety.

You do have a great point Bounty, which is... having a variety of tools is a great thing. I still love my rotary, and it is efficient in its ability to remove paint in a timely manner. The random orbital and forced rotation orbitals open a new world up to the average guy, in terms of safe paint polishing.

[Bounty]

Re: G110 or Flex

Yeah, I added those to clarify and show both sides of the coin. I did not mention the "KBM", as I do not discuss it here at MOL at this time. That being said, there was no reference made to the amount of pressure or special pad priming or removal of excess liquid... I was trying to compare just the machine specifications.

Absolutely...and that's why of all of my posts you won't find one where I try to explain the KBM. Why? Well, quite frankly, because I'm not Kevin Brown. I've read your posts on Autopia, TID, and here and had the method personally demonstrated to me by Todd. Having said that I think way too many people post up their versions or interpretations of the "KBM" without any idea what they're talking about. Very dangerous. They often just think it's spreading polish over a pad like butter and going to town. No idea of the true nuances of the KBM like the use of wetting agents, proper pad priming, pad cleaning, etc. And worse, they have an idea of the technique but not any understanding of the theory behind why it works or the functions of the polisher which make it possible. I prefer to wait for your paper and put it to use. You must feel like you're back in high school with the teacher yelling "Kevin, turn in your paper!"...

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

Kevin, can you elaborate on "outfitted properly"? What would you recommend?

It is a loose term, I agree.

Some pads have a tendency to negate the machine's movements. For example, all other things being equal, a large diameter pad will polish a paint surface differently than a small diameter pad (not necessarily better or worse either way). As an example, one aspect of a diameter change has to do with distribution of the machine weight and applied pressure. One paint type may respond well to a large diameter pad because it might be susceptible to marring, whereas another may need a concentration of the machine weight and applied pressure to efficiently remove defects. Of course, this also applies to a forced rotation orbital, but with a this type of machine (perhaps it should be designated as a FRO!), backing plate rotation is not altered as it is on a random orbital (RO).

If a tall or super-pliable pad is used, it can absorb a lot of the machine movement, so if this is the case, a short or stiffer pad may be needed to polish paint in a timely manner.

This goes on and on, which is why I am still adding stuff to a paper I started writing about this time last year!

I've had my G110 for nearly two years now and I feel like I'm getting pretty good with it, although I KNOW I have tons to learn. Any suggestions you could make on maximizing it's use?

Get some test panels and push the limits! Use varying pad types, different amounts of buffing liquid as well as different types of liquids, spray a supplemental spray to see how the polishing is affected, use different size backing plates and diameters of pads... Basically, do what you are doing already, only change things up a bit and experiment on test panels rather than your own car.

Specifically, I know Megs doesn't recommend it, but could I use speed setting 6? What about switching to smaller pads (say 4" pads)?

Lots of guys use speed setting six, but again, the results achieved are dependent upon your machine "setup". Oftentimes, adjusting pad size or type, changing the backing plate diameter, or adjusting applied pressure (just three examples) can increase the efficiency of your machine. I will say that most times speed six works safely, but user fatigue can increase while backing plate and buffing pad life decreases.

I know you are not a big fan of the "dimpled pads" (like the CCS foam pads) when being used with M105/M205, should we only be using flat pads?

I am partial to flat pads, but I cannot argue with how comfortable dimpled pads or diamond pads are to use. If you are like me and enjoy the predictable polishing characteristics of a flat pad, a diameter change can increase the comfort level when using them. After all, a dimpled pad is one way of concentrating weight and pressure onto less buffing pad surface area. In the case of pads that feature large peaks and valleys (such as the 3M convoluted-face pads), the concentration of weight and pressure gradually diminishes as weight and pressure is increased. Plus, some manufacturers optimize a polish and pad system to use specific pads.

It is all very interesting or confusing, depending upon how you look at it, eh?!

The amount of buffing liquid used also has a BIG influence on comfort of use.

How about backing plates, if using 4" pad should we use the standard backing plate that comes with the G110 or should we use the 4" packing plate (the really small one)?

If you are referring to the W67DA, it measures 4-13/16" in diameter. If this is the pad you are referring to, then of course an appropriately sized backing plate is needed. A backing plate that is 3" to 3-3/4" in diameter would be best in most cases.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

Absolutely...and that's why of all of my posts you won't find one where I try to explain the KBM. Why? Well, quite frankly, because I'm not Kevin Brown. I've read your posts on Autopia, TID, and here and had the method personally demonstrated to me by Todd. Having said that I think way too many people post up their versions or interpretations of the "KBM" without any idea what they're talking about. Very dangerous. They often just think it's spreading polish over a pad like butter and going to town. No idea of the true nuances of the KBM like the use of wetting agents, proper pad priming, pad cleaning, etc. And worse, they have an idea of the technique but not any understanding of the theory behind why it works or the functions of the polisher which make it possible. I prefer to wait for your paper and put it to use. You must feel like you're back in high school with the teacher yelling "Kevin, turn in your paper!"...

Oh man, do I EVER! Except when I see the "teacher" in my dreams, he is a mile away and as he "floats" towards and then over me screaming, the dude looks bald and tired and... hey wait! That's ME!

[3Fitty]

Re: G110 or Flex

Well, admitedly, I have taught the KBM to my 4 year old son, 2 year old daughter and wife because they fully believe I know what I'm doing and have NO reason to question my claims.

Of course, in my version of the KBM it reads more like Greek mythology rather than detailing. In fact, when I teach the KBM, I almost certainly mention Zeus, Medusa and the cyclops!!!