Delicate Paint? Polishes, cleaners, fillers

[Jossy92]

I was looking at a recent thread about detailing an antique car with delicate paint. Touch up paint was not an option. Apparently neither was a pure polish and sealer/wax combo. Check out the scratches:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36445

Seems like pure polishes, cleaners, and fillers address the same issue, but, one hides, one starts at the top and works down, the other from the bottom up.(?)

Don't know the when, why or how in choosing a product for delicate paint. Maybe it's why some only use M7?

Now I get to find out if this is a dumb question...

[Murr1525]

Re: Delicate Paint? Polishes, cleaners, fillers

Not entirely sure what the question is?

If the paint is old and thin, then you certainly cant worry about as much paint correction.

You could still choose to use a mild paint cleaner though to get the paint clean. You would just pick something mild and not linger in one place too long.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Delicate Paint? Polishes, cleaners, fillers

When working on an old vehicle with original paint, or a very old respray, it really helps to know something about the history of the paint. Was it ever wetsanded? Has it been aggressively rotary buffed? How often has either occurred over the years? The answers to these questions will give you some idea as to the viability of the existing paint, as will a thorough visual inspection. A paint thickness gauge is an invaluable tool in these cases. We've seen some older cars where the paint had previously been burned through on certain body lines - faintly, but it was definitely there. That immediately tells us the paint is either very thin, or it's been poorly machine polished in the past, or that it's just been machine polished a lot over the years.

In the case of the Pierce Arrow write up you linked to it seems that the overall paint health varied from one color to another, and section to section. The amount of cracking in the paint on the fenders is a special challenge since the only real way to fix it is a repaint. That not being an option on the Pierce meant another approach needed to be chosen. The cracks presented a far greater challenge than mere swirls or even scratches - fine swirls can effectively be "filled" or "hidden" with some glazes/pure polishes, but those cracks were both wide and deep and therefore no match for a pure polish. The black wax chosen by Frank to address that area was a very logical choice, but even then it could only do so much.

For the rest of the paint, including the green panels that otherwise appeared to be in good shape, one still must take a very gentle approach. Frank may have used M105 but he did so on a D/A and we can only assume he took it rather easy there. Everything else was addressed with M205 on a D/A, another very gentle approach. Test spots are always recommended when dealing with paint like this, always easing into the process.

We've seen a situation on a 1981 Ferrari 512BBi with original single stage black paint where almost everything that touched the paint marred it in some way. We finally opted for a very gentle application of M80 Speed Glaze on a finishing pad with the D/A for defect removal, but even then the paint didn't look as nice as we'd hoped for. Yes, the swirls and scratches were gone, but the paint still looked hazy. Interestingly enough, on that particular car, it wasn't until a final application of NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0 was applied that the paint really popped. We must have spent 3 hours doing small test spots, both by hand and D/A. Extremely frustrating, especially when even a hand applied coat of M07 made the paint look dull and hazy. Craziest darn thing you ever saw.

But it isn't always old paint that proves delicate and therefore tricky to correct. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you can't just attack an old paint job on a classic car as if it were a test panel in really rough shape - although it does take a trained eye, some clear thinking and a whole bunch of skill to do what Frank did to that Pierce Arrow. But what about a brand new car with delicate paint? How do you even know it has delicate paint?

We've seen several instances of paint that only seemed like it was hard because even a middle of the road process left a heavily marred finish. Going at it harder and harder never could eliminate the marring, so several people got the impression that the paint was very hard and a progressively more and more aggressive approach was needed. But it turned out the paint was actually quite soft, and the marring was coming from the aggressive buffing process. If you've seen the lengthy and detailed thread by Kickin Griffin where he measured how much paint he took off just by rotary buffing, you get the idea that repeated, aggressive use of the rotary can lead to problems if you aren't "reading" the paint correctly. So, because of the delicate nature of the paint on these cars, a gentle approach with a D/A did the trick. Products like M205, M66 and even ColorX did an outstanding job on these paints, even when applied with a finishing pad on the G110.

Seems like pure polishes, cleaners, and fillers address the same issue, but, one hides, one starts at the top and works down, the other from the bottom up.(?)

That they do, and essentially in the way you've described. When dealing with an old paint job of unknown thickness, something like M80 can do an effective job of light defect removal while adding the polishing oils to revitalize the paint and, to some degree (depending on how you use it) conceal some of the finest defects left behind. If you can measure the paint and discover that it's crazy thin, then a pure polish alone may be your only real choice. Will you actually remove defects in that case? No, but defects in paint that thin aren't going to be fully corrected anyway - you'd be through to primer in no time.

Paint thickness, type of defects (swirls, scratches, cracking, oxidation), and how dried out the paint is are all going to help determine which products to select in order to bring out the best possible shine, without taking off too much paint.

[Jossy92]

Re: Delicate Paint? Polishes, cleaners, fillers

Thanks to you and Murr1525.

That was a long and well thought out post. Whew!

What really helped was your narrative about the thought process needed before "going for it."

I have been bumped off line twice trying to express my gratitude. However gratitude is not the same thing as having something to say. Hence this will be short.

The question was how to deal with a paint of unknown thickness and condition. I just didn't know it.

The answer is to be careful and gentle in how you pick your products, tools and how you use them. You answered many more questions that will have more meaning with more experience.

I have something to work with now. In the past I have used the "apply ScratchX with enough passion to blow the shock absorbers out" as well as the "bunched up towel wax squeak test " wherein I popped off a speck of paint. Bad Me.

I am going to gently experiment with my ScratchX mistake using M80 and playing with it. Then I'll figure out the next step.

Thanks again

Jeff "make if fit" Long

[Jossy92]

Re: Delicate Paint? Polishes, cleaners, fillers

Not entirely sure what the question is?

I am not sure either. I guess I am trying to ask if there are individual products that would hide (filler?) and slow down (oils?) the degradation of a 20 year old paint job. I'm trying to learn how you guys think. But not sure of what questions to ask. You guys have newer cars with different issues.

I need information on delicate paint or paint of unknown thickness and condition. Classic car detailing is way over my head, but closer to what I need given what I am working with. Thanks.