Orange Peel

[AeroCleanse]

Can you remove orange peel with just a rotary buffer or do you NEED to wet sand in order to remove it?

[Eddie6th]

Re: Orange Peel

Wetsanded.

Seems to be becoming popular here.

[the_invisible]

Re: Orange Peel

I am not sure if you can use a rotary buffer to remove orange peel... but high speed compounding and polishing could enhance the gloss of the paint so much that the focus would be shifted away from the orange peel.

Though if you have the time to mess around with a car, then it can be a fun learning experience.

[H.E.D]

Re: Orange Peel

I'm pretty sure you can, but might take long time and you have a higher risk of burning thru, with the multiple passes with the rotary or removing more clear also with the multiple passes IMO.

[SHYNEMAN123]

Re: Orange Peel

When you compound with a Rotary your removing paint, By removing paint your flatting the surface, This will improve D.O.I but will take longer than sanding wet or dry.

Back in the 80's Gm had a problem with paint cracking, little crows feet on Cadillac,Oldsmobile and others. On several occasions I was able to work the surface hard enough to build up enough heat with a rotary,wool pad and 3M Super duty compound to reflow the paint and hide the cracks. Please don't try this at home.

[KC's]

Re: Orange Peel

When you compound with a Rotary your removing paint, By removing paint your flatting the surface, This will improve D.O.I but will take longer than sanding wet or dry.

Back in the 80's Gm had a problem with paint cracking, little crows feet on Cadillac,Oldsmobile and others. On several occasions I was able to work the surface hard enough to build up enough heat with a rotary,wool pad and 3M Super duty compound to reflow the paint and hide the cracks. Please don't try this at home.

absolutely agree

[hacker-pschorr]

Re: Orange Peel

Back in the 80's Gm had a problem with paint cracking, little crows feet on Cadillac,Oldsmobile and others. On several occasions I was able to work the surface hard enough to build up enough heat with a rotary,wool pad and 3M Super duty compound to reflow the paint and hide the cracks. Please don't try this at home.

Wow, parts of my 81 Porsche 928 has the same problem.

Before I get it painted (hopefully this winter) I might have to get some specific details on this just for the hell of it.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Orange Peel

While it is true that the only way to truly remove orange peel is to wet sand, you need to be extremely careful when doing so on a factory paint job. Quite frankly the practice is not recommended, especially for the novice.

Factory clear coat is only about 2 mils thick - that is 2/1000 of an inch - could be a bit more, could be a bit less. But you don't know for sure. And the clear coat contains the UV screeners that protect the color coat. And that is where the problem lies: as the clear coat dries most of the UV screeners rise to the top of the clear, so removing even a relatively small amount of clear will remove a large amount of the UV screeners. This will lead to premature clear coat failure if you remove too much, and removing too much is pretty easy to do.

A lot of people will tell you that it's fairly difficult to sand all the way through your clear even with 2000 grit sand paper - but what they often fail to realize is that you do not need to go all the way through to run into problems. If you look at the service manual of virtually any major auto manufacturer, they will tell you flat out that removing more than 0.5 mil will create a situation where a complete refinish is in order. You can remove 0.5 mil with repeated, aggressive rotary buffing alone.

Unless you have a good paint thickness gauge and you have a lot of skill wet sanding and rotary buffing, don't even think about wet sanding a factory paint job on a vehicle you care about. Why rotary buffing skill? Because in most cases that's what is needed to pull out the sanding marks. But even using a D/A with a cutting pad and something like M105 Ultra Cut Compound, if you can pull out the sanding marks, you're still going deeper into the paint.

Wet sanding has its place, and there's no doubt that it's a lot of fun - as is rotary buffing. But unless you seriously know what you're doing, leave it to a seasoned pro.

Keep in mind all of the above is specific to original factory paint jobs. A body shop repaint often has the luxury of not only having more clear laid down to start with, but the painter can measure the film build before and after the clear is shot, so he knows exactly how much extra clear he has to play with it. You just don't have that luxury with a factory paint job.

[SHYNEMAN123]

Re: Orange Peel

Wow, parts of my 81 Porsche 928 has the same problem.

Before I get it painted (hopefully this winter) I might have to get some specific details on this just for the hell of it.

I would be glad to.

I was amazed on my 1st one and wasn't sure what I did until a friend of mine who is a paint rep and I were talking and I told him what happened and he said that the paint got hot enough to reflow but not burn. Boy did my head get big.LOL

[SHYNEMAN123]

Re: Orange Peel

Mike,
You posted:While it is true that the only way to truly remove orange peel is to wet sand,

And also posted: You can remove 0.5 mil with repeated, aggressive rotary buffing alone.

I agree with the 2nd.

[the_invisible]

Re: Orange Peel

I would be glad to.

I was amazed on my 1st one and wasn't sure what I did until a friend of mine who is a paint rep and I were talking and I told him what happened and he said that the paint got hot enough to reflow but not burn. Boy did my head get big.LOL

Yeah, the older lacquer (I think) paint refinishes and flows as heat is generated. But newer paints are not like that unfortunately.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Orange Peel

Mike,
You posted:While it is true that the only way to truly remove orange peel is to wet sand,

And also posted: You can remove 0.5 mil with repeated, aggressive rotary buffing alone.

I agree with the 2nd.

You may not fully agree with the first part, but it is the generally accepted method for removing orange peel. You've been doing this for years and have developed a very high skill level, an extensive knowledge of paint and how it responds to different inputs, etc. You didn't just pick up some sand paper and a rotary buffer one day and perform at the level you do today - it's guys like you who can make this process look easy because you've very good at it. But here at MOL we're more of a teaching forum than most other detailing forums are, so we like to find out what sort of experience an individual has before we get too deep into a wet sanding discussion.

Yeah, the older lacquer (I think) paint refinishes and flows as heat is generated. But newer paints are not like that unfortunately.

And that is an excellent point. Modern catalyzed paint won't behave the same as old single stage lacquers do - heck, there's a thread here on MOL from an individual who went through his clear with ScratchX 2.0 and a terry cloth applicator working by hand! Heaven knows how long he scrubbed at the particular defect, and how hard he worked it, but he did it. And if he can make that mistake working by hand, others will make the same mistake with a rotary. They'll just do it a heck of a lot faster. We see it all the time.

Someone with a good basic understanding of paint polishing, who understands what's really happening when you remove defects from paint, is going to have a higher success rate than someone who just dives into rotary use because he's heard it's the best tool for achieving an optimum shine, yet has no concept of what's actually happening when pad meets paint. Again, we see it all the time.

Honestly, we hate to sound like a broken record, but there has been a lot of pretty casual talk about wet sanding around here lately and we just don't want anyone getting in over their heads. We don't want to quash all discussions of wet sanding - heck, we have an area of MOL dedicated to the topic - we just want people new to the process to go with eyes wide open, and their brain really thinking about what their hands are doing. Of all the tools available to a detailer the brain is probably the most overlooked, and the most powerful.


Oh, and the_invisible, I love your collection of James May avatars!

[Eddie6th]

Re: Orange Peel

All the points you said Michael are sensible. As for orange peel on daily drivers,why this trendy attitude to wetsanding? I've seen many good cars here,detailed with consumer products by hand and also the G110. They have orange peel,but it's normal. I think on a factory clearcoat it is weakning it qiute a bit,esp. on the high spots.

From what I've seen on panels that I've played around with,the orange peel is reduced,but not completely removed.
If I take a pic from a few feet away,there's not that much difference,unless the peel effect was ridiculously bad to start with.

I thought Invisibles avatar was his new car

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Orange Peel

As for orange peel on daily drivers,why this trendy attitude to wetsanding?

Good question, and we aren't quite sure why it's becoming more common for people to use wet sanding as a response to a defect removal question. While it can come in handy for small spot touch ups, or when doing touch up paint for stone chips, etc you still need to know what you're doing in those cases, especially on factory paint. But for general removal of orange peel on a factory paint job..... not really a great idea.

I've seen many good cars here,detailed with consumer products by hand and also the G110. They have orange peel,but it's normal. I think on a factory clearcoat it is weakning it qiute a bit,esp. on the high spots.

Absolutely correct!

[Eddie6th]

Re: Orange Peel

That was an amazingly quik reply!