The Challenge of Delicate Paint

[FRS]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

We appreciate your comments but think you've completely missed the point of this particular article. While we have always been proponents of the concept of "using the least aggressive method to get the job done" we also regularly state that we are NOT, in fact, telling everyone to purchase both SwirlX and UC and start with SwirlX. Ask anyone who's taken our Saturday Class and they'll tell you that we state that flat out. UC is, as you said, completely sufficient for paint cleaning/correcting applications the vast majority of the time.

But the whole point of this article is for those vehicles with paint so delicate that UC is overkill, overly aggressive, and creates a lot of hazing that is extremely frustrating to the user. These cases are not terribly common in the overall scheme of things, but if you're a new user and you jump in with an aggressive product on this sort of paint, the result is not what you expected going in.

In fact, the car we used in this demo was chosen specifically because we saw the owner experience this exact situation during one of our Thursday Night Open Garage sessions. He used UC by hand and the paint was horribly hazed. Was there a bit of technique adjustment needed on his part? Perhaps, but as a fairly new user he was going by everything he had read online. But, quite frankly, his paint looked horrible after using UC. That night we went over the bad hazing using SwirlX on a D/A at a low speed and it completely cleaned up the finish. And so we wanted to do a write up on how to deal with very soft paint.

Yes, it's very true that if you have hard paint, SwirlX is going to be pretty ineffectual with regard to defect removal, no doubt about it. But this article is not about hard paint, or even "average" paint. It's about very soft and delicate paint. And that poses a whole new set of challenges, especially for people new to this hobby. We've seen too many people use overly aggressive products just because that's the natural tendency - grab the heavy duty stuff because it will make the job go faster (or so they think). When they badly haze the finish they don't "read it" as such and just think "this doesn't look as clear and shiny as I expected, so I guess I need something more aggressive". And that's just plain wrong in those cases.

Look at the number of test spots we did on this car and all the problems caused by the more aggressive products. For this delicate paint, the choice was very clear, and it was not an aggressive product.

Maybe all the cars I've dealt with had tough and not delicate paint.

In one of my early Q's on this forum regarding my Mercedes Benz paint which is known to have thick and tough paint, I was advised to start with SwirlX and then proceed with other products until solution is found (?!!?)

Obviously I could not test products if I don't buy them first and that's what my point in the above post was. (Of course, SwirlX did nothing to the Merc paint).

I'm not sure if I'll ever come across a car with delicate paint, but will surely post here if that occurs.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Two of the softest and most delicate paints that I, personally, have ever worked on were a black Ferrari 512 BBi from the mid '80s with original single stage paint and the 1999 Mercedes SL500 AMG we had in the garage during last Saturday's class.

The Ferrari could be hazed by a hand application of M07 Show Car Glaze - we spent almost 3 hours just searching for a combination that would give any sort of positive result. It was very soft and incredibly delicate.

The AMG had factory clear coat, also black, and while it needed something fairly stout to remove the defects, it still hazed quite badly with almost any liquid on the W8207 polishing pad. It wasn't terribly "soft" so much as it was "delicate". SwirlX alone wasn't strong enough to remove all the defects, hence our reluctance to call it "soft" but it still hazed easily, so the term "delicate" seems to apply. Come to think of it, the same situation sort of applies for a 2007 SL 55 AMG we worked on just a few weeks ago.

Different still from those two cases is something like the '97 Ferrari 550 Maranello we worked on a couple of months back. The paint was "soft" in the sense that M205/W8207/G110v2 at speed 4 was all that was needed to remove even nasty swirls and scratches, but the paint never hazed. In fact, after just that one step it was absolutely gorgeous!

The Cobra replicas from Superformance are sort of like this too, except they're easy to haze with an aggressive liquid. In fact, the paint on those cars is prone to D/A haze almost no matter what you use on them, but they love M205 via rotary at fairly high speed. Strange paint on those, but they're beautiful cars.

Bottom line - the more cars you work on the more you appreciate the need for a test spot. You just never know what you're going to be presented with.

[FRS]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Would you know were the 2 Mercs repainted or the paint on them was still original?!? The reason why I'm asking-I had so many Mercs in the past and all of them had very 'hard' paint and not soft at all.
My cirrent Merc was detailed firstly with SwirlX without any result or ability to affect swirls .. even after 3 passes. The UC then did an awesome job.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Neither car had been repainted but they were built several years apart. On the '99 SwirlX did some correction but not as much as UC, which we expect since it isn't as strong, but it still hazes the paint. On the newer car we used some "experimental" stuff. but the paint was still easy to haze.

But paints can vary dramatically even within a single manufacturers line. BMW paint is all over the map - we've worked on some that practically required a rotary to do almost anything and others that were very easy to correct. Forum member "smack" show me his 3 Series in Las Vegas last month and he corrected it beautifully with SwirlX on a D/A. I'll admit to being a bit surprised by that but I saw the car in person so I couldn't really with the man!

[InfiniteDetail]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

The AMG had factory clear coat, also black, and while it needed something fairly stout to remove the defects, it still hazed quite badly with almost any liquid on the W8207 polishing pad. It wasn't terribly "soft" so much as it was "delicate". SwirlX alone wasn't strong enough to remove all the defects, hence our reluctance to call it "soft" but it still hazed easily, so the term "delicate" seems to apply. Come to think of it, the same situation sort of applies for a 2007 SL 55 AMG we worked on just a few weeks ago.

Michael, in our experience this is by far the most challenging to work with. We just worked on a '66 GTO (black) single stage repaint. After damp sanding we removed the sanding scratches with 2 applications of M105 via Rotary and wool Solo maroon pad.

Normally we would follow this with PC/LC green pad/M205, but this combo wasn't aggressive enough to remove the rotary micro marring. We had to follow the rotary/solo maroon/M105 with the flex/LC orange/M95 and then follow that with PC/Green/Cleaner wax!

It took a good 6 hours of banging our heads to figure this process out. It was very frustrating!

Applying and removing glaze hazed the finish. M205 on a finishing pad hazed the paint. Cleaner wax was about the only thing that would finish up acceptably well.

A few days after we polished it, the owner lightly brushed some dust on the hood with a WW towel (no QD applied) and seriously marred the paint. It was that delicate!

This was the most challenging paint we have ever worked on. I am thankful we had this forum as a resource - I would have never thought of cleaner wax on my own, but I had read this and the Cleaner Wax popped into my head..and Presto!

Can't say enough how important it is to finish out a test spot to the finished product - then finish out that panel to a finished product - before proceeding to the rest of the car.

-Jeff

[kenshin_fan1]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Hi there i also have a honda- the accord euro and looking at all these posts and the internet it seems that honda paints are soft in general. I just bought a Meguiars G220V2 and cant wait to try it out but am concerned that even on a setting 1 with black pad and deep crystal polish swirling may occur. I know, do a test section first! Thats what i will be attempting this weekend.

Just out of curiosity has anybody with soft paint used mothers wax attack palm polisher? at 800rpm this DA might just remove those swirls without hazing the paint

[akimel]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

I have two Hondas. Though the paint is soft, which means that I my paint seems to swirl easily from normal washing and quick detailing, it also means that it can be fairly easy to correct.

Deep Crystal Polish will not remove swirls. It is a non-abrasive "pure" polish that only adds a little temporary wetness to the shine. A black pad is also the wrong choice for paint correction (though the correct choice for the application of DCP).

If you want to remove swirls, you will need to use an abrasive polish and a yellow polishing pad (speed 5). Meguiar's has several choices, but the best choice is to order the 12 oz sampler size of M250 Ultra Finishing Polish from Auto Detailing Solutions.

Watch some good videos on how to polish one's car. Here's one by Mike Phillip's:



And always remember to do a TEST SPOT before polishing the entire car. You want to ensure that you can make one small area to look good than

Don't waste your money on the palm polisher. This is only for wax application, not paint correction.

[232613fmf]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

That information was rite on! I just joined the forum yesterday after calling the very helpful Car Crazy people , have had a hazing problem after using u c on a white 05 highlander . Its my girlfriends car and one of my practice cars Im finding white paint is forgiving but also challenging at the same time . looking forward to this forum is the future .

[littleblackcar]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Don, you should do your test spot with the tools you'll be using otherwise you aren't giving the paint or process a fair shake. The whole idea of a test spot is to dial in a product/process that will give repeatable results over the entire vehicle.

We once worked on a Ferrari 512BBi with original single stage paint dating back to the early/mid 1980s and it was just stupid delicate. Even M07 by hand left it looking hazy - go figure. We did so many test areas that we were running out of room on the hood!! If memory serves, the time spent trying to figure out a process took almost as long as buffing out the whole car!

It should be stressed, though, that super delicate paint isn't all that terribly common. Personally, this Honda and a couple of other Honda Fits that I've worked on, plus the Cobra linked to in the article and that Ferrari were the only cars I've worked on that were this delicate. Having worked on them though, I now have a good starting point reference when presented with something might be very delicate. Instead of starting my test spot with UC (which, honestly, in most cases is going to correct the vast majority of issues on the vast majority of paints) I'll drop down to M205 or M80. Maybe even start off with a finishing pad just to see how the paint responds.

Joe Fernandez of Superior Shine has the tag line "I am the paint whisperer." under his avatar here on MOL. That's really not too far off - the paint will tell you what it needs, you just have to listen. Your test spot is that initial interview with the paint to find out what it wants and needs. Corny as that sounds, it's true.

The good news is that most of the time you can get the job done with just a few likely combinations of products/processes. It's the head scratchers that cause frustration and take so much time to dial in.

Hi Michael,
Have you dialed in some products that work well on the Honda Fit? I have black Fit, and I can tell the paint is very delicate. Do you have suggestions? Thanks!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Hi Michael,
Have you dialed in some products that work well on the Honda Fit? I have black Fit, and I can tell the paint is very delicate. Do you have suggestions? Thanks!

we have worked on a few of these and they all had delicate paint, as do the 2011 Toyota Priuses (just what is the plural of Prius?) we've worked on. Sometimes you need a bit of cut to remove defects but that cutting product leaves the paint hazy. Ultimate Compound cuts better than M205, for example, but leavea more haze, too. Still, that haze is almost always cleaned up with ColorX on a finishing pad. You can then top with another wax or sealant if you choose. It should be said that a light touch of M205 with a finishing pad at slow speed on a DA should leave a veey nicedinish suitable for LSP. Depending, of course, on how the pait reaponds and how good your technique is.

[Bet99ty00]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Great info, i had to work on a Subaru Legacy a while back, it was one of the softest paints i worked on, i had a hard time working with it because after getting excelent correction i would make scratches with my microfibers. it was a nightmare!

then on the other side of the scale i have been hit with audi paint (really hard to correct on some cars) where 105 and megs cutting pad (g-220) wasn't making a dent in the swirls

[Rafael Rakyan]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Can I use D151 for delicate paint with rotary? (Pad : Meguiar's Polishing W8...)

[Michael Stoops]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

Can I use D151 for delicate paint with rotary? (Pad : Meguiar's Polishing W8...)

Yes, you certainly can. But if the paint is really delicate you may struggle to finish hologram free with a polishing pad on a rotary. D151 may do a very good job of concealing rotary swirls due to the wax protection it leaves behind. That does NOT mean it's just a filler product, don't get us wrong. It does an outstanding job of actual defect removal, but what's left behind can conceal to a degree. And that could hide buffer swirls on very delicate paint.

[zbestwun2001]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

According to my body shop I have delicate paint. It is a single stage, not real expensive paint job. I had it done end of last May and it still really does look good. Even, the body shop ( who are friends) said that shop did a good job. It is also not very thick, in fact it's thin.
Using UQD, and NXT 2.0 and UQW. These three products have kept the paint very healthy and when I run my hand across it it is very glass like. A few little bumps but that's the paint job.

I am VERY leery to use just about anything else on it. I really don't have swirls, I might have a couple MF scratches but the car is Metallic Beige and they don't show.

BUT, is there anything that Maguiar's makes that will make it look even better safely?

I wax by hand using a hand held applicator.

I have a tendency sometimes to "if it's not broke, fix it till it is", if you know what I mean. I don't want to do that here, it looks to good. If I went to sold it I could get top dollar for it as it also only has 111K mi. on it. It's very clean inside and out.

Do you think I should just stay on this same routine, it seems to be working great?

Thanks

[Murr1525]

Re: The Challenge of Delicate Paint

It would be good to try out the Cleaner/Wax, or ColorX as a step before the wax.

If leery, you would just do a panel or small area at first, and inspect it. Then move on.