Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Once again, The Guz has pretty well nailed it. We definitely agree with his assessment of the 5" pads probably being a better choice overall. They will quite effectively transform the feel of your G110v2 buffer while giving you faster cut than the 6" pads. Otherwise, his advice is pretty much spot on, as usual!

[youther]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Thanks for the info guys, which is why I asked....I knew you all would come through.

As for why the pads..... I already had the two 8207 and 9207 pads and read either in this post or another here that they would be fine and that DFC6 pad to be used with the D300. So since I already had them I just went with what I had and ordered the red pad and backing plate.

I will order the MF system. I want the best result possible. Is this what I need or do you recommend another size?

W76DA 5" Backing plate
DMC5 5" Cutting Disk for 300
DMF5 5" Finishing Disk for 301 and 302

Thanks again!

[The Guz]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Once again, The Guz has pretty well nailed it. We definitely agree with his assessment of the 5" pads probably being a better choice overall. They will quite effectively transform the feel of your G110v2 buffer while giving you faster cut than the 6" pads. Otherwise, his advice is pretty much spot on, as usual!

Thanks Mike. You have taught us well with great advice over the years.

Thanks for the info guys, which is why I asked....I knew you all would come through.

As for why the pads..... I already had the two 8207 and 9207 pads and read either in this post or another here that they would be fine and that DFC6 pad to be used with the D300. So since I already had them I just went with what I had and ordered the red pad and backing plate.

I will order the MF system. I want the best result possible. Is this what I need or do you recommend another size?

W76DA 5" Backing plate
DMC5 5" Cutting Disk for 300
DMF5 5" Finishing Disk for 301 and 302

Thanks again!

That is what is needed to stay within the microfiber system.

The other option is to also add M205 to your arsenal. It's a very versatile product. I would try that with the yellow foam polishing pad as a test spot. It can do some good things on a microfiber finishing disk also known as the Kevin Brown method.

Then if you need more correction you try D300 on the burgundy cutting disk. The cutting disk is actually really nice.

Then if you need more correction you can move up to a microfiber cutting disk.

[youther]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

OK so I just ordered the DMCKIT5 (was better value this route even though I already have 300 and 301), M205, and some Ultimate Leather Balm for my red leather seats too...LOL!

Should have all bases covered. Having a black vehicle with no plans to trade anytime soon I will eventually use the other bottles of 300/301 anyways...

Will post before and after pics once I get started.

As always thanks for the awesome knowledge and advice.

[Top Gear]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

The other option is to also add M205 to your arsenal. It's a very versatile product. I would try that with the yellow foam polishing pad as a test spot. It can do some good things on a microfiber finishing disk also known as the Kevin Brown method.

Well, forgive the push back, but this thread is specifically about Detailer/DAMF, and that means the D30x liquids on the MF pads. Believe me, I understand the official Meguiar's POV will need to lean toward every Meguiar's product being a great solution for the customer, but while that's often true for general consumer purposes, detailers of a sort tend to be more meticulous or "detail-oriented". Mixing Ultimate and Mirror Glaze lines will be indistinguishable in my experience, but mixing Ultimate/MG with Detailer/DAMF kinda ruins the visual effect of both.

As I've noted, D302 will be quite similar to UP/M205 in terms of your actual polishing work, despite being less aggressive on its own (because the pad is more aggressive than foam), but D302 is yellow-toned and fits with the Detailer/DAMF look. D300 will be quite similar to UC/M105 in terms of actual cutting power, but D300 finishes better than either of those, and is pink/fuchsia/purple, fitting with the Detailer/DAMF look. Other waxes have carnauba and may also be cleaner-waxes, but D301 is indigo/purple and fits with the Detailer/DAMF look. The D30x liquids also smell awesome, and D301 smells like candy - a nice ending touch to a correction

The use of other Meguiar's line's liquids will certainly "work", of course, say a more aggressive compound than D300 for extra cutting, or a mildly aggressive polish for more fine polishing. Every situation will be a bit different, even on the same car - at least that's been my experience. One correction I'll need more of this, and another more of that. However, to really enjoy the DAMF visual experience, especially on a black car, I think it's important to note there's a significant color shift (which I've celebrated on this site because I LOVE it on my black car), in addition to the slight difference in methodology (eg. microfiber, 2-step, "pure" polish in between, cleaner-carnauba-wax). The first time I saw this "blue-black" look it was a revelation. I was tired, almost embarrassed, by the harshly glossy result of UC/UP/GC on my already glossy car, but didn't know why until I saw my car finished DAMF-style. My paint is a pearl-metallic, and the subtle details of the paint are almost completely lost with white/silver hi-gloss products, while DAMF brings them out in a super-dark-wet-look. Gold Class regular wax offers a similar difference in "look" from the ubiquitous white/silver, too, obviously.

So, assuming you need non-DAMF liquids (as I do with M101 and occasionally UP), the simple way to correct the color shift they bring is to follow them with a DAMF liquid, even lightly will do. So, if I use M101 (white), I follow it with a quick pass of D300 (pink/purple). If I use UP (white), I follow it with a quick pass of D302 (yellow), perhaps even with a dot or two of D300 on the pad. This will tone down that Ultimate/Mirror Glaze white/silver tone back into yellow/purple, to be followed with D301 wax (indigo/purple). The full DAMF effect is stunning (see my related thread for shots/discussion). These effects might be less apparent on some cars, but on black, well, it's hard not to see the difference.


Indeed, as I've suggested before, Meguiar's should complete the DAMF approach with a dedicated (ie. bluish) Quik Wax, Detailer, and maybe even a UWWA. For some odd reason, D156 Synthetic Xpress Wax is essentially UQW. Why?? Anyway, Gold Class products come close in color - although goldish instead of blueish. D115 is bluish, but not as convenient to buy and use as the white UWWA, which is the same product in all but color. GCQW matches the yellowish D302, but not the purpleish D300 & D301. Anyway, this means that over a month or so of regular maintenance with UWW, UWWA and GCQW, my fresh coat of blue-black DAMF featuring the fabulous D301 wax will slowly shift from bluish to bright yellowish, which is noticeable enough to me. Because UWWA and GCQW are truly awesome products, though, they are essential in maintaining a D301 finish.

[The Guz]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

I always chuckle at your post about the colors of each line.

You want to stick with the DAMF line then search on the Kevin Brown method with M205 on a microfiber finishing disk. As stated D302 has no cutting ability. Foam will always finish out better.

[RPPM]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Hmm D300 and UC look the same and smell the same, but they offer different hues to paint? Well it is Easter , so maybe just like eggs, the different dyes cause different hues...LOL. I am 100% positive the color of the Meguiars product in the bottle has NO impact on the tint or hue one sees on their paint.

[Top Gear]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Chuckle indeed. I realize you're just trolling, but how is M205 part of the Detailer Line and DAMF System? How is there no difference in colors and resulting finishes, and who ever said UC and D300 look and smell the same? Can YOU prove there is no difference in finishes between the various lines??

(again, from this thread)

...This will sound impressionable since I'm still high on the success of this change, but this paint has always been a bit blueish, even under the yellowing of Gold Class. You can see it a bit in the top shot in my OP, which was a minutes-fresh GC application. It's very subtle, because it's just basic black paint with mica. So, when I started noticing the purplish cast of D301, and not just the scent, I thought it was perfect. I didn't think much about it until last night and today, but I was going to post here that I like how blue/purple it looks.

Also, because the swirls and haze are gone, the finish is also less harshly glossy, it's darker, ridiculously black at night, and then there's that blue/purple subtlety. I hope I can capture it in photos for you all.

Impressionable? No, we think it's more of an astute observation. That you may have struggled slightly with defect removal in the past using foam and UC, and that the DAMF System did not haze this paint badly, we're inclined to call the paint on your car a bit on the hard side. And the DAMF System just loves hard paint - or rather, hard paint loves the DAMF System. We routinely see a gain in clarity of reflections after using the DAMF on harder paints. The aggressiveness of it seems to better refine the surface of the paint, and really gets metallics popping. In side by side testing against more traditional foam on some paints, there is a noticeable difference with the two approaches. On really soft paints, however, the opposite is often true as these really touch sensitive paint can be pretty badly hazed by the DAMF. So much so that a black car will look grey. Swirl free, to be sure, but more grey than black - at least until you do a secondary finishing polish follow up. But we've seen really hard paint, full of swirls, attacked with DAMF using M100 or M101 and the finish is so incredible that you could easily go straight to wax.

It all just goes to show how differently some paints can react to the same input. But it also goes to show that a bunch of guys hanging out on a detailing forum and really pushing their skill set, really observing what's happening, have a whole different perception of what it means for paint to "look good". Talk about taking it to the next level!!

[RPPM]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

To clarify, I said the pigments/dye in the Megs product have no impact on the tint or hue one will see on their paint. I didn't say the products couldn't give a different look. If they do give a different look, it has nothing to do with the color of the product coming out of the Megs bottle. Mr. Stoops' comment above is how hazed paint will leave a grayish look to the paint because of the clarity of the paint after compounding and polishing due to all the factors, hardness of paint, type of product and pad choice. No where does he say it has to do with the color of the product. I am not trolling, I just can't handle seeing such misinformation being spread. I am sure you see things differently. I am just putting out my observations and thoughts based upon my own results AND reading from very reliable and factual sources on various detailing forums.

[Top Gear]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Yes, I see it differently.

[RPPM]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Yes, I see it differently.

So to clarify, you think the color of the compound/polish/wax/sealant/hybrid/spray wax/QD/Waterless Wash/Rinseless wash- all Meguiars products, that COLOR has an effect on how your paint looks?

[Top Gear]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Sorry, got interrupted from above...

To clarify, I said the pigments/dye in the Megs product have no impact on the tint or hue one will see on their paint. I didn't say the products couldn't give a different look. If they do give a different look, it has nothing to do with the color of the product coming out of the Megs bottle. Mr. Stoops' comment above is how hazed paint will leave a grayish look to the paint because of the clarity of the paint after compounding and polishing due to all the factors, hardness of paint, type of product and pad choice. No where does he say it has to do with the color of the product. I am not trolling, I just can't handle seeing such misinformation being spread. I am sure you see things differently. I am just putting out my observations and thoughts based upon my own results AND reading from very reliable and factual sources on various detailing forums.

Your statements are mutually contradictory. You cannot have pigments that do not affect the outcome (think of painting, staining, and other commonly used effects of colors), and you cannot have a different finish in terms of color without different ingredients. You seem to agree the finishes across the lines have a different result, but seem to think it happens via magic or religion or whatever. That is irrational, as well as false. The result is due to elementary physics and optics, and not even Mr. Stoops will succeed in arguing against that. His comment was clearly not as narrow as you claim, but that is beside the point.

Take Gold Class Liquid and D301. Both are liquid carnauba waxes, yet they yield a very different finish in terms of the color or cast or tint. This is not just Top Gear's opinion. This basic fact is inescapable, and it leads anyone holding both bottles to notice the obvious - one liquid is a dark yellow and resulted in a yellowish finish, and the other is a dark purple and resulted in a bluish finish. One cannot get a goldish finish with D301, nor can one get a bluish finish with Gold Class. HOW is this demonstrable and repeatable outcome resulting irrespective of the actual colors of the products? Put the other way, HOW does the color of the product not affect the outcome? Indeed, how is your contradiction not misinformation itself??

[The Guz]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

Chuckle indeed. I realize you're just trolling, but how is M205 part of the Detailer Line and DAMF System? How is there no difference in colors and resulting finishes, and who ever said UC and D300 look and smell the same? Can YOU prove there is no difference in finishes between the various lines??

(again, from this thread)

Me trolling? You are one to talk with all your crazy mumbo jumbo about carnauba's vs synthetics. We are not all close minded people. We are all here to learn different techniques. You base your techniques off your own single car that we know has hard paint. Not everything has hard paint. There are so many options and techniques to paint correction. I recommend you expand your horizons a bit and be open minded about some of the various methods well renowned detailers use.

To clarify, I said the pigments/dye in the Megs product have no impact on the tint or hue one will see on their paint. I didn't say the products couldn't give a different look. If they do give a different look, it has nothing to do with the color of the product coming out of the Megs bottle. Mr. Stoops' comment above is how hazed paint will leave a grayish look to the paint because of the clarity of the paint after compounding and polishing due to all the factors, hardness of paint, type of product and pad choice. No where does he say it has to do with the color of the product. I am not trolling, I just can't handle seeing such misinformation being spread. I am sure you see things differently. I am just putting out my observations and thoughts based upon my own results AND reading from very reliable and factual sources on various detailing forums.

I agree with this. Nowhere did I read anything to do with the product causing the paint to look differently. It refers to DA haze.

Yes, I see it differently.

Good for you but stop spreading misinformation across the forum.

[Top Gear]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

I don't recall you being promoted to moderator, Guz. Your tone is extremely harassing and inappropriate.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Using Meguiar's D/A Microfiber Correction System

OK, everyone, let's all calm down a bit here, shall we? Please?

First off, we do indeed all see things a bit differently when it comes to gloss, clarity, depth, etc. That's why discussions centering strictly on waxes can often devolve into what has commonly been referred to as "The Wax Wars" on forums. When speaking strictly about the visual differences provided by different waxes (carnauba versus synthetic is really just the tip of the iceberg when things when get really silly in those discussion) there really is no right or wrong. It's a personal preference, with our own unique abilities to see or discern what are often very subtle differences. I've always likened this to wine tasting, or listening to high end audio; while there will be generally accepted trends in both segments (ie, red wine with meat, white with fish) things get really personal from there. Same goes with waxes - people who are hugely passionate about their wax choices will take this to extremes, selecting very specific waxes for each color of vehicle they work on. And they're not afraid to tell someone they're crazy if they like Wax A on a green car, when clearly Wax B is far superior on green. But that is them forcing their opinion on others, and that's not cool. Hey, if the other guy actually prefers the look of Wax B on his green car, you simply can not tell him he's wrong.

But this particular discussion, in this particular thread, has taken some turns that we've not really seen before. First off, we have no dyes in any of our compounds, polishes or waxes. Dyes are very heavy colorants that will indeed impact the visual effect rendered by a product. We seek to avoid that at all costs, so no dyes are used. Very light colorants are indeed added to some products (D300 is not naturally pink, D301 not naturally a dark greyish blue). Those colors were specifically chosen to color coordinate the liquids with their intended microfiber discs when the DAMF System was being developed. The color plays no role whatsoever in the final outcome of the finish. If it did, then both would be totally unsuitable for use on white paint. In fact, we initially wanted D300 to be darker in color to more closely match the burgundy of the foam in the microfiber cutting discs, but to do so we had to add so much colorant that it negatively impacted the cut of the product. We'll say that again; It impacted the cut of the product, not the color of the paint.

Now, none of this is to say that Top Gear is not seeing a difference when using different products. We have no doubt that he is, and we're sure The Guz would agree with that assessment. But the visual differences are not down to the color of the liquids, but rather how they (and the pad they're paired with) are impacting the paint. Some paints simply respond better to one liquid/pad combo than they do to another. And that improved response can be deeper gloss, more clarity, the truer reveal of the metallic particles in the paint, etc. D301, when applied with the microfiber finishing disc, will indeed impart a really killer effect on darker metallic paints - we've seen it time and time again. Is it immediately preferable to Gold Class, or Ultimate Wax, on dark metallics? Well, that's in the eye of the beholder. And if Top Gear has a preference in that regard, nobody on earth can tell him he's wrong in that preference. We just believe he's giving credit for the visual differences to the wrong characteristic of the product. No need to jump on him about it, or poke fun at him for it. We're here to educate, after all, not ridicule. Repeatedly in our Saturday Classes we've seen huge improvements to dark metallics when using Ultimate Compound on a foam pad, only to see even greater results when we ran a microfiber cutting disc as a second test spot - better defect removal, much more clarity (sometimes shockingly so if the paint was bad enough to begin with), and a sparkle and color reveal in the metallic that shocked the heck out of those in attendance. And that's even when using another white compound, like M105, rather than D300. And we've seen plenty of folks swear by the results they get with M205 on microfiber, both for defect removal and the amazing clarity and gloss created by the combo. Would Top Gear, or The Guz, or your's truly, have preferred the look of something else on one or two of those cars? Maybe, and that's fine. Heck, it's even great! Because we don't all see things the exact same way and we all have our personal preferences. Cool.

So, there is nothing at all wrong with using liquids outside the DAMF System on the microfiber pads. Yes, it is correct that this thread originated as an intro to the DAMF System upon it's introduction and, technically, the discussion should center on that system. But this discussion is now 5 years old and a lot of experimentation has happened since then. Detailers tend to not care what a bottle says on it with regard to it's intended purpose or usage recommendations. As examples:

• M101: designed very specifically for a rotary buffer, small foam cutting pad, and to be used on high solids aftermarket European paint. But detailers love the fast cut and great finish it gives on microfiber discs mounted to DA polishers when working on OEM factory cured paint. We never even considered this when developing the product.
• M205: designed as a finishing polish for a rotary or DA, foam finishing pad, used to remove fine buffer swirls or otherwise boost the gloss and clarity as a follow up to compounding. But detailers are, in the last couple of years, realizing that when paired with a microfiber pad (on the right paint, of course) it can slay defects like a compound but finish out to an astonishing level, all in a single step. Personally, I did this very thing on a Singapore Blue (a very dark greyish blue metallic color) on a brand spanking new BMW M6 and the results surprised even me. The client was staggered by the results as the level and color of the metallics took on a whole new look that he never thought could exist on his car. Again, we never even considered this when developing the product.

But it should be noted that we would like newcomers to either machine polishing in general or the DAMF System specifically (like our friend youther here who revived this discussion a few days ago) to start by using a proven system before experimenting with a bunch of liquid/pad combos. You've gotta walk before you can run, and just jumping into the crazy world of detailing with all it's possible twists and turns can lead to more confusion and less results if you allow it to overwhelm you. And when youther mentioned using the DAMF liquids on foam pads, everyone was quick to ask why he opted for foam instead of microfiber. You all agreed on that, and we agree with it, too. Especially when looking at D300 and D301 as they were specifically engineered to work in synergy with, not just recommended for, microfiber discs. It's the cutting power of the discs, paired with those liquids, that gets you the intended results on the majority of vehicles.

As a matter of fact, all parties concerned here were totally in agreement with their recommendations to youther until just after youther announced that he had picked up a DMCKIT5 (following a unified front of recommendations), and then this thread went south. Quickly. From all sides. And there was no need for that at all. I'm sure it didn't help youther one little bit at that point, and that is not at all the intent of this forum - quite the contrary, actually.